Flow through to AC

[QKZXKV]

I like it. Leave it to a real union to not pull punches. I fully support the JAZZ MEC on this. This deal is crashing and burning pretty rapidly among AC pilots.

"real union" LOL

[Loon-A-Tic]

Any "former" Jazz pilot who's "idling" on an AC AOL at Jazz should be scheduled at the bottom of the seniority list. They are now an AC pilot, with an AC seniority. They do not hold a Jazz seniority number any longer for scheduling purposes or equipment.

As the saying goes; you can't have your cake and eat it.

If I were in that position I wouldn't want to stay at Jazz then

I would agree with you, so now is the time to make Jazz a career option. Some pilots will flow thru but equally some will elect to stay for the right "terms & conditions". Creating a flow process isn't the issue, a Jazz pilot is as appealing to AC as any other 705 pilot. AC will always be there, will always be an option but not necessarily one that appeals to all.

[canadian_aviator_4]

None for the foreseeable future. Ended in October, and looks like it will continue through November and on. This will be one issue that will be resolved over many months as parties involved are dragging their feet, with no resolution likely until jazz starts losing pilots because of the issue. Either through a further inability to attract pilots and/or resignations, to go anywhere else.

For perspective pilots. Don’t apply. You can literally apply anywhere else and you are more likely to go to AC, or have better pay.

[Ash Ketchum]

None for the foreseeable future. Ended in October, and looks like it will continue through November and on. This will be one issue that will be resolved over many months as parties involved are dragging their feet, with no resolution likely until jazz starts losing pilots because of the issue. Either through a further inability to attract pilots and/or resignations, to go anywhere else.

For perspective pilots. Don’t apply. You can literally apply anywhere else and you are more likely to go to AC, or have better pay.

I agree. The only reason most junior pilots are at Jazz is for flow to AC. Since this has stopped, I foresee increased resignations at Jazz and eventually pay increases as Jazz won't be able to keep the operation properly staffed either way.

[Aspiredtofly]

None for the foreseeable future. Ended in October, and looks like it will continue through November and on. This will be one issue that will be resolved over many months as parties involved are dragging their feet, with no resolution likely until jazz starts losing pilots because of the issue. Either through a further inability to attract pilots and/or resignations, to go anywhere else.

For perspective pilots. Don’t apply. You can literally apply anywhere else and you are more likely to go to AC, or have better pay.

I agree. The only reason most junior pilots are at Jazz is for flow to AC. Since this has stopped, I foresee increased resignations at Jazz and eventually pay increases as Jazz won't be able to keep the operation properly staffed either way.

I'm not well updated with what is happening at jazz right now. But as per what you guys are saying, I guess the flow to the big red thingy is now gone, so more resignations and to keep up with that jazz might have to increase WAWCON's

[Outlaw58]

So if I understand correctly, the advice given to someone currently at Jazz or considering Jazz is to jump ship or avoid Jazz entirely and compete with hundreds if not thousands of OTS applicants who are very likely to have much more competitive resumes, for the OTS AC spots of which there could be as little as NONE since to this day, AC and Jazz are contractually obliged to respect flow.

Yeah, I'll ask for a second opinion.

Thank you,

58

[Ash Ketchum]

So if I understand correctly, the advice given to someone currently at Jazz or considering Jazz is to jump ship or avoid Jazz entirely and compete with hundreds if not thousands of OTS applicants who are very likely to have much more competitive resumes, for the OTS AC spots of which there could be as little as NONE since to this day, AC and Jazz are contractually obliged to respect flow.

Yeah, I'll ask for a second opinion.

Thank you,

58

I know a few Encore/Porter FOs and Captains that got OTS at AC recently whereas there are a bunch of experienced RJ and Embraer Captains still waiting at Jazz so it's not like everyone at Jazz is not competitive...

[Outlaw58]

So if I understand correctly, the advice given to someone currently at Jazz or considering Jazz is to jump ship or avoid Jazz entirely and compete with hundreds if not thousands of OTS applicants who are very likely to have much more competitive resumes, for the OTS AC spots of which there could be as little as NONE since to this day, AC and Jazz are contractually obliged to respect flow.

Yeah, I'll ask for a second opinion.

Thank you,

58

I know a few Encore/Porter FOs and Captains that got OTS at AC recently whereas there are a bunch of experienced RJ and Embraer Captains still waiting at Jazz so it's not like everyone at Jazz is not competitive...

Based on this, would you say that everyone jumping ship or avoid Jazz will make it to AC faster? I think not.

All I am saying is know what you're going up against, and what resume you bring to the fight before you make that decision. That's all.

58

[rudder]

Based on this, would you say that everyone jumping ship or avoid Jazz will make it to AC faster? I think not.

All I am saying is know what you're going up against, and what resume you bring to the fight before you make that decision. That's all.

58

Every Jazz pilot or prospective Jazz pilot who was basing their career path on AC flow should be contingency planning.

Right now the flow arrangement is not worth the paper that it is printed on. You do not have to wait until Dec 31 to conclude that nowhere near 60% of the 2022 AC PIT spots are going to be filled by Jazz pilots. First it was identified that flow hiring would be ‘back weighted’ to the last 4 months of 2022. Then it was suspended unilaterally for October. Then a replacement arrangement was agreed to with zero input from JAZ ALPA (since failed).

Status quo is basically status nothing. A grievance is not going to get a lost seniority number back at AC (third party issue that will not be within the jurisdiction of the arbitrator).

Meanwhile, Jazz year 1-5 FO/CA pay is in the lowest quartile of 705 operators in Canada. That will be the pay cheque while waiting to see if flow will ever resume and hundreds of pilots are hired OTS at AC.

No rash decisions should be made. But evidently prior guarantees may no longer be valid, at least as measured against current flow language. Plan accordingly.

[Dash.Trash]

Repost from another thread:

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

[Tbayer2021]

Repost from another thread:

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

You do realize that many have successfully done this right? It doesn't sound like AC is holding any sort of grudges against those guys. You can also be honest and humble and tell them that you realize that a job at AC was by no means a guarantee and a plethora of other factors led you to move on to another company that would progress your career.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Repost from another thread:

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

AC is way happier hiring OTS. Stealing an encore/flair/sunwing or any other’s pilot is way less disruptive to their operations. And IF….again, IF they ask you why you quit Jazz to go to AC, tell the truth. You’d be surprised.

[co-joe]

Repost from another thread:

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

If you have the interview, it's because they want to hire you. I wouldn't put too much effort in to overthinking what weird questions they might ask you, a Jazz FO leaving Jazz to fly a brand new 80 tonne jet for twice the money, or a Captain going to a company who's first year captain pay is on par with Jazz's 18 year Captain pay is obviously career advancement.

[daedalusx]

Repost from another thread:

If your ultimate goal is to get to AC, think about this:

Say you leave for Flair. Put in some time there. Apply at AC and get an interview. How do you think it would go over explaining in an interview why you deserve to be hired by AC, having quit Jazz (causing them to have to replace you, costing them money) to try and skirt around a flow agreement?

Just food for thought.

If you have the interview, it's because they want to hire you. I wouldn't put too much effort in to overthinking what weird questions they might ask you, a Jazz FO leaving Jazz to fly a brand new 80 tonne jet for twice the money, or a Captain going to a company who's first year captain pay is on par with Jazz's 18 year Captain pay is obviously career advancement.

This. 100%.
The fear mongering...
“Noooo you can’t get experience on a NG flying down south and get oceanic WATRS experience, you have to stay on that q400 and do YVR - YYJ 7 times per day otherwise the AC interviewer will look at you wrong.

[a2btrail]

Update for all who care:

Flow has restarted after taking a 3 week hiatus. Calls have gone out to Jazz pilots this week who will be starting at AC' in the Nov 2nd PIT course. More updates to follow.

[kiaszceski]

Update for all who care:

Flow has restarted after taking a 3 week hiatus. Calls have gone out to Jazz pilots this week who will be starting at AC' in the Nov 2nd PIT course. More updates to follow.

Nov 2nd will be mix of jazz and OTS at AC.

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Should it be straight jazz?

[a2btrail]

(3) November AC PIT dates:

Nov 2
Nov 15
Nov 29

(1) December AC PIT dates:

Start date unconfirmed but tentatively schedule for the week of Dec 13

Jazz pilots now being interview for Nov 15th and 29th ground school dates. 4 more courses for the rest of the year.

[a2btrail]

I have been able to confirm 80% of new hire classes till the end of the year which are about 2 or 3 more will be of Jazz

April 2018 hires are now being called for interviews.

[canadian_aviator_4]

Finally some good news 🗞 . Hopefully it lasts into the new year.

[kiaszceski]

Does that mean Jazz is able to upgrade the same amount of pilots during the same period?

[a2btrail]

Does that mean Jazz is able to upgrade the same amount of pilots during the same period?

Nope the company has accepted they will be short. Jazz and AC are focused on getting as close as they can to meet the 60% annual flow rate. They will be continuing hiring like this into Jan and Feb from my understanding given they may be slightly short by Jan 1. As the PML is seniority based both Captains and FO's with 2000 hrs + an ATPL are being called up.