Negotiations

[Inverted2]

$700 hotel allowance might get you 6 or 7 nights in a hotel these days. I wouldn’t even consider doing training if I have to pay my own hotels. If you do US multi day pairings your perdiems are over $100 cdn now. Driving from home to the sim daily is also a non-starter with the cost of fuel and dealing with insane traffic volumes and perpetual construction in the big cities like YYZ.

[Aspiredtofly]

What will this negotiation achieve and what should we stand for here?

[Inthrustwetrust]

For example:

01 January 2023

CA

1 100
2 105
3 110
4 115
5 120
6 125
7 130
8 135
9 140
10 145
11 150
12 155

FO

1 65
2 70
3 73
4 77
5 80
6 83
7 87
8 90
9 93
10 97

TP 10% override (based on top scale CA rate). CCP A 15% override (based on top scale CA rate). LCP/LTC $36/hr (adjusted for COLA).

The strategy of underpay/flow to AC by year 3 is not working in 2022. Everybody knows what the definition of insanity is. Time to reevaluate. There are way too many alternative opportunities to maintain that AC flow is enough of a golden carrot.

Multimillion dollar assets need qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots need to be trained. It isn’t rocket science. Living in the past or some outdated paradigm will not meet the commercial schedule in a pilot supply challenged era.

The US has learned this lesson. Canada needs to recognize it is very near the same dynamic.

Reality check, chorus has a ton of debt to pay off still. Do you really think they can afford to give each pilot a $20hr raise?
$20×85=$1700 per pilot a month extra
$1700 x 1600 pilots=$ 2,720,000 month
2,720,000×12= $32,640,000 extra in wages.

This is not including increased pension contributions etc etc.
They can't afford to pay us what we are worth.

[truedude]

For example:

01 January 2023

CA

1 100
2 105
3 110
4 115
5 120
6 125
7 130
8 135
9 140
10 145
11 150
12 155

FO

1 65
2 70
3 73
4 77
5 80
6 83
7 87
8 90
9 93
10 97

TP 10% override (based on top scale CA rate). CCP A 15% override (based on top scale CA rate). LCP/LTC $36/hr (adjusted for COLA).

The strategy of underpay/flow to AC by year 3 is not working in 2022. Everybody knows what the definition of insanity is. Time to reevaluate. There are way too many alternative opportunities to maintain that AC flow is enough of a golden carrot.

Multimillion dollar assets need qualified pilots to fly them. Those pilots need to be trained. It isn’t rocket science. Living in the past or some outdated paradigm will not meet the commercial schedule in a pilot supply challenged era.

The US has learned this lesson. Canada needs to recognize it is very near the same dynamic.

Reality check, chorus has a ton of debt to pay off still. Do you really think they can afford to give each pilot a $20hr raise?
$20×85=$1700 per pilot a month extra
$1700 x 1600 pilots=$ 2,720,000 month
2,720,000×12= $32,640,000 extra in wages.

This is not including increased pension contributions etc etc.
They can't afford to pay us what we are worth.

Reality check... They are going to have to, because if they don't, there won't be an airline left. Most of the cost will likely be passed on to AC, which in turn will pass it on to the consumer. They either fix it now, or it gets worse, and costs more later. All Canadian airlines are competing for the same diminishing pool of pilots, which will only get worse with every passing month and year. The first airline to get this right, will win. But simply put, when Porter is prepared an E2 captain upwards of $200.00 then it forced everyone to adjust accordingly.

And by the way, I expect a lot more than $20 more an hour. And if they want to low ball us, then that is fine... Because I am legit curious to see how they intent to staff the operation if they want to keep playing games.

[Loon-A-Tic]

It sounds and seem to me that issue of remuneration goes way beyond a "bump" for TP's & ACP's.

Here's a though why don't the airlines that utilize ACP push for Transport Canada to kick in. They are acting as a Minister's Delegate while off-loading some of the tasking and burden form Transport Canada for these duties.

[rudder]

What will this negotiation achieve and what should we stand for here?

The JAZ MEC have thus far said no more bandaids without permanent substantive gains. Also, pilots should not have to subsidize changes that the employer needs to make in order to meet its commercial obligations (staffing related issues including internal training dept). The industry has changed. The pilot market has changed. The AC pilots just rejected an MOA with apparently the same perspective.

I would say that the Jazz pilots probably have a similar view.

Further, in 2010 the Jazz pilots were first up to bat with the assistance (interference?) of the Minister of Labour (Raitt). There was the threat of a legislated CBA. That outcome was avoided by the parties (Jazz and ALPA) deciding a negotiated deal would be better than a legislated deal. The AC pilots followed in time but did not learn the lesson of the Jazz/ALPA situation and the willingness of the Federal government to intervene. That resulted in setbacks in the CBA that the AC pilots are still dealing with, and one could argue are now coming back to haunt the employer.

Now with the failed MOA at AC and the collateral damage (union in disrepair due to resignations and the commercial plan at risk due terms of a closed CBA), it would seem that Jazz would be wise to avoid a similar fate.

There are always lessons to be learned in history. Do not repeat your own mistakes or those of others.

[rudder]

Reality check, chorus has a ton of debt to pay off still. Do you really think they can afford to give each pilot a $20hr raise?
$20×85=$1700 per pilot a month extra
$1700 x 1600 pilots=$ 2,720,000 month
2,720,000×12= $32,640,000 extra in wages.

This is not including increased pension contributions etc etc.
They can't afford to pay us what we are worth.

1300 active Jazz line pilots and that number will continue to shrink over time as the Jazz fleet shrinks, particularly after 2025.

CHR debt? That debt is mostly related to CAC leasing fleet. Not a Jazz pilot concern (different business).

Right now, pilots are worth their weight in gold and training pilots are worth their weight in platinum.

Aircraft cost $30-40MM to buy. Do they stay parked because there were pennies to be saved in pilot wages?

[rudder]

It sounds and seem to me that issue of remuneration goes way beyond a "bump" for TP's & ACP's.

Here's a though why don't the airlines that utilize ACP push for Transport Canada to kick in. They are acting as a Minister's Delegate while off-loading some of the tasking and burden form Transport Canada for these duties.

ACP are a very small fraction of the overall training dept population. Also, if operators had to wait for TC inspectors to conduct all PPC’s, the industry would just shut down.

These positions are all ‘volunteer’. So the current and prospective training/checking pilots are all looking for reasonable lifestyle (schedule/vacation) and compensation (override for skills and responsibilities above and beyond those required for line pilots).

AC was paying an override of 12%. Remember that is based on CA rates of $240-340/hr. So an extra $29-41/hr. And the failed MOA was going to offer further enhancements to AC training dept pay. Is it any easier to train a pilot on an E175/CRJ than a pilot on an A220/B777?

The wheels of the machine stop turning fairly rapidly without adequate training volunteers. And now, there is a dynamic where experienced trainers and checkers will be ‘poached’. Flair took some from SWG. And now Porter is taking them from Jazz.

[truedude]

Here, I made a small change to Rudders payscale:

1 100
2 106
3 112
4 118
5 124
6 130
7 136
8 142
9 148
10 154
11 160
12 166
13 172
14 180
15 190

Do this and you will clean out Encore, and perhaps the bottom of Westjet by the new year. You will decimate our competitor, and by the time they get organized enough to fix it, it will be too late for next summer. It will provide a solid mix of qualified pilots who can fill the left seat, while also providing a good job for those who want to stay, ensuring you have qualified people to keep the operation running smoothly, while others can keep flowing to Air Canada.

But the longer they wait, the bigger our problem will get.

[goingmissed]

Here, I made a small change to Rudders payscale:

1 100
2 106
3 112
4 118
5 124
6 130
7 136
8 142
9 148
10 154
11 160
12 166
13 172
14 180
15 190

Do this and you will clean out Encore, and perhaps the bottom of Westjet by the new year. You will decimate our competitor, and by the time they get organized enough to fix it, it will be too late for next summer. It will provide a solid mix of qualified pilots who can fill the left seat, while also providing a good job for those who want to stay, ensuring you have qualified people to keep the operation running smoothly, while others can keep flowing to Air Canada.

But the longer they wait, the bigger our problem will get.

Don't worry, management at Encore is very happy to let pilots leave. They know that pilots want three things: a livable salary, a fair commuting policy, and job security. They seem to refuse to accept that as the solution to staffing problems and instead would rather throw money at band-aid solutions and free pancakes.

[rudder]

Here, I made a small change to Rudders payscale:

1 100
2 106
3 112
4 118
5 124
6 130
7 136
8 142
9 148
10 154
11 160
12 166
13 172
14 180
15 190

Do this and you will clean out Encore, and perhaps the bottom of Westjet by the new year. You will decimate our competitor, and by the time they get organized enough to fix it, it will be too late for next summer. It will provide a solid mix of qualified pilots who can fill the left seat, while also providing a good job for those who want to stay, ensuring you have qualified people to keep the operation running smoothly, while others can keep flowing to Air Canada.

But the longer they wait, the bigger our problem will get.

Jazz has a gross deficiency in its initial pay for both CA and FO. That will require increases of up to 50% simply to attract qualified ATPL candidates - including truly qualified DEC (previous 705 command) - in order to staff the planned volume of flying and to accommodate flow/resignation/retirement attrition.

The rest of the scale needs to be compressed. Jazz will lose most of its current E175 pilots to either Porter or AC or others if what it is selling is 18+ years of service to get to top of CA scale. Top rate is anyones guess. Porter E2 rates are certainly an ambition, but there are reasons why Jazz may end up with lower final rates given mission and gauge. The dilemma facing Jazz is staffing 76-78 seat fleet on a CPA arrangement where recruiting and retention are now problematic.

DC pension matching needs to go to 6%(year 1-3)/8%(year 4-6)/10%(year 7+ which is effectively a long term Jazz pilot employee). Employee contributes 6% (same as DB pilots). Examining doubling the LOLOP offset would also be a worthwhile discussion.

There is a long shopping list. When you fall so far behind the evolving industry it will take a significant adjustment to demonstrate that you intend to be competitive in sourcing the most qualified pilots. And if those same qualified and experienced pilots move on to AC, even better for AC. Look at it as an investment in recruiting the best candidates for both Jazz and ultimately AC.

[Aspiredtofly]

How long till the negotiations results come out

[hithere]

They aren’t even sitting down with the company to start talks u til Oct 24 so maybe a couple of weeks thereafter?

[propfeather]

How long till the negotiations results come out

Do you even have a CPL?

[maverick12]

How long till the negotiations results come out

Do you even have a CPL?

[Aspiredtofly]

How long till the negotiations results come out

Do you even have a CPL?

New to this crap that's why

[rudder]

A meeting to discuss issues of concern (both parties) will transpire on Oct 24.

If both parties determine that a framework exists to continue discussions, then an actual negotiation process will begin. This negotiation will be WITHOUT JEOPARDY as the CBA is closed. If no agreement is reached to modify the terms of the CBA, there is no third party process that can be invoked by the terms of the CBA or under the Canada Labour Code.

From a technical perspective, the parties could reach an agreement to temporarily amend terms of the CBA, permanently amend terms of the CBA, or a combination of both. Such agreement would manifest in the Jazz Pilot CBA as an LOU. The parties could also agree to what is known as ‘mid term bargaining’ and use the result if the negotiation to replace the next round of normal course bargaining. This typically would only happen in concert with an agreement that results in a CBA term extension, or significant permanent changes to the terms of the CBA. The Jazz CBA is already in force until 2035 so it would be the latter if it was mutually agreed not to conduct the next round of normal course bargaining (replaced by this agreement).

My guess is the parties are more likely to be pointed in the direction of an LOU. However, it is not a secret what changes the JAZ MEC is looking for and that the intention is that the changes will be permanent. That would lend itself more to the mid term bargaining scenario (memorandum of settlement) with perhaps a side LOU if any of the changes are only temporary.

In any case, you will not hear a peep from either the JAZ MEC nor the NC about details of the negotiation while discussions are ongoing. The JAZ MEC has already indicated via several newsletters the direction that it wants to go with the terms of the CBA. They have also indicated some of the topics on the company agenda. They will either reach an agreement or they will not. Such discussions will be ‘without prejudice’. And the Jazz pilots will either have a result to review and vote on or will get a post mortem on why an agreement was not reached.

Grab a lawn chair, sit back, and relax. This could last hours, days, or weeks. My guess is it will be quickly determined if there is a willingness to engage in a meaningful negotiation (in point of fact - this has probably already happened). So the harder work begins. My guess is a couple to three weeks to either get it done or acknowledge no deal. Also possible that there would extended bargaining if the subject matter volume increases or if external consultation or approval is required. Much depends on the topics to be discussed.

[kiaszceski]

Thank you for this realistic summary.

Hopefully, wages and conditions will dramatically improve for everybody.
Living in Toronto with a family of 4 below the poverty line is not feasible.

[airway]

A meeting to discuss issues of concern (both parties) will transpire on Oct 24.

If both parties determine that a framework exists to continue discussions, then an actual negotiation process will begin. This negotiation will be WITHOUT JEOPARDY as the CBA is closed. If no agreement is reached to modify the terms of the CBA, there is no third party process that can be invoked by the terms of the CBA or under the Canada Labour Code.

From a technical perspective, the parties could reach an agreement to temporarily amend terms of the CBA, permanently amend terms of the CBA, or a combination of both. Such agreement would manifest in the Jazz Pilot CBA as an LOU. The parties could also agree to what is known as ‘mid term bargaining’ and use the result if the negotiation to replace the next round of normal course bargaining. This typically would only happen in concert with an agreement that results in a CBA term extension, or significant permanent changes to the terms of the CBA. The Jazz CBA is already in force until 2035 so it would be the latter if it was mutually agreed not to conduct the next round of normal course bargaining (replaced by this agreement).

My guess is the parties are more likely to be pointed in the direction of an LOU. However, it is not a secret what changes the JAZ MEC is looking for and that the intention is that the changes will be permanent. That would lend itself more to the mid term bargaining scenario (memorandum of settlement) with perhaps a side LOU if any of the changes are only temporary.

In any case, you will not hear a peep from either the JAZ MEC nor the NC about details of the negotiation while discussions are ongoing. The JAZ MEC has already indicated via several newsletters the direction that it wants to go with the terms of the CBA. They have also indicated some of the topics on the company agenda. They will either reach an agreement or they will not. Such discussions will be ‘without prejudice’. And the Jazz pilots will either have a result to review and vote on or will get a post mortem on why an agreement was not reached.

Grab a lawn chair, sit back, and relax. This could last hours, days, or weeks. My guess is it will be quickly determined if there is a willingness to engage in a meaningful negotiation (in point of fact - this has probably already happened). So the harder work begins. My guess is a couple to three weeks to either get it done or acknowledge no deal. Also possible that there would extended bargaining if the subject matter volume increases or if external consultation or approval is required. Much depends on the topics to be discussed.

Thanks for the summary rudder. Always interested in your opinion.

[a2btrail]

A meeting to discuss issues of concern (both parties) will transpire on Oct 24.

If both parties determine that a framework exists to continue discussions, then an actual negotiation process will begin. This negotiation will be WITHOUT JEOPARDY as the CBA is closed. If no agreement is reached to modify the terms of the CBA, there is no third party process that can be invoked by the terms of the CBA or under the Canada Labour Code.

From a technical perspective, the parties could reach an agreement to temporarily amend terms of the CBA, permanently amend terms of the CBA, or a combination of both. Such agreement would manifest in the Jazz Pilot CBA as an LOU. The parties could also agree to what is known as ‘mid term bargaining’ and use the result if the negotiation to replace the next round of normal course bargaining. This typically would only happen in concert with an agreement that results in a CBA term extension, or significant permanent changes to the terms of the CBA. The Jazz CBA is already in force until 2035 so it would be the latter if it was mutually agreed not to conduct the next round of normal course bargaining (replaced by this agreement).

My guess is the parties are more likely to be pointed in the direction of an LOU. However, it is not a secret what changes the JAZ MEC is looking for and that the intention is that the changes will be permanent. That would lend itself more to the mid term bargaining scenario (memorandum of settlement) with perhaps a side LOU if any of the changes are only temporary.

In any case, you will not hear a peep from either the JAZ MEC nor the NC about details of the negotiation while discussions are ongoing. The JAZ MEC has already indicated via several newsletters the direction that it wants to go with the terms of the CBA. They have also indicated some of the topics on the company agenda. They will either reach an agreement or they will not. Such discussions will be ‘without prejudice’. And the Jazz pilots will either have a result to review and vote on or will get a post mortem on why an agreement was not reached.

Grab a lawn chair, sit back, and relax. This could last hours, days, or weeks. My guess is it will be quickly determined if there is a willingness to engage in a meaningful negotiation (in point of fact - this has probably already happened). So the harder work begins. My guess is a couple to three weeks to either get it done or acknowledge no deal. Also possible that there would extended bargaining if the subject matter volume increases or if external consultation or approval is required. Much depends on the topics to be discussed.

Well said. All we can do is wait. The reality is time to resolution seems to now be of critical essence for Jazz and they know it. Otherwise they wouldn't be coming to us let alone have this meeting on the 24. It's common sense as Rudder has explained. IMO if coming out of the 24th meeting they're unwilling to give meaningful gains and/or proceed with talks their ability to function as an airline, meet AC's daily schedule and summer 2023 commercial plan will be at major jeopardy. They will lose flying at some point in the future. They can't afford this. At the end of the day AC is the customer.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Anyone who's think that AC/Jazz doesn't have a Plan B could be horribly wrong

[truedude]

Anyone who's think that AC/Jazz doesn't have a Plan B could be horribly wrong

They can have as many plans as they want, but the will ultimately be left with the same problem. Finding qualified pilots to fly their airplanes...

Who knows, maybe if this fails they will buy Jazz and merge it with AC just to annoy everyone...

[kiaszceski]

Yeah, AC could give the express flying to Encore
Or maybe PAL?

[Kosiw]

Jazz is probably looking to give just enough to keep pilots on the hook till 2025 (isn't that when they can reduce the size the fleet to 80 tails..hence need for less crews?)

[truedude]

Jazz is probably looking to give just enough to keep pilots on the hook till 2025 (isn't that when they can reduce the size the fleet to 80 tails..hence need for less crews?)

Jazz has historically operated more than the min guarantee as outline in the CPA. But unless a lot more people suddenly decide to become pilots in the next three years, the problem will be more acute with 80 tails, than it is today. And will require the same fix, more money. They can start up a new company, but again, that company will be faced with exactly the same issue, attracting qualified pilots, which moving forward is going to cost money.

After decades of making this profession as unattractive a career as possible, combined with the insanely high costs associated with becoming a pilot, there simply aren't enough pilots in the pipeline. And that is if nothing changes with the U.S. border, or Asia becomes an attractive destination for foreign pilots once more.

This problem isn't going to go away, no matter how creative management thinks they are. In the end, reality will win, but they have a chance to either put in place long term solutions that will allow them to run a smooth operation; or they can keep pretending there is no issue as 100's flights get canceled moving forward. This problem only gets harder to solve, the longer they wait to do so.