Working Abroad is the Only Way I can Justify A Career as a Pilot.

[twa22]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

No it doesn't unfortunately, but to get back on topic. Emirates, Qatar, Singapore Airlines are a few legacy carriers hiring, then there's the likes of Flydubai and Wizz Air Abu Dhabi which as far as I know are continuously hiring. There are many others around the world that are hiring also. Personally, once I have the hour requirements, I plan on leaving as well, and not for the money in my case, but rather to try something different.

I've listed some links below for you and others regarding jobs and where they are posted

https://pilotcareercenter.com/

https://www.flightdeckfriend.com/aviation-jobs/

These 2 are pretty good for listings worldwide

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/

This is a good reference link for operators and general info (pay, roster, etc), IF the information is updated. Some of it is recent and some very out of date

https://www.pilotjobsnetwork.com/

Lastly, i'm sure you've heard of pprune forums, but if you haven't, go check it out, lots of threads there regarding hiring and info, especially for emirates and qatar... as with everything online and forums, take everything with a grain of salt.

Great, thanks for the help! We should all be helping and supporting each other, that's the only way to succeed as a pilot group and improve wages and work conditions in this country.

Agreed, we can only try and hope for the best.

[daedalusx]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

Air Wisconsin should sponsor you and they should have direct entry Captain jobs on the CRJ if you have experience on type.

They rejected me when I applied last month. Apparently they are not taking more foreign pilots till 2024. I am on the Embraer so maybe Skywest or something although they aren't sponsoring now . I would still need the 1000 121 SIC to be PIC there.

Too bad. I actually spoke with their HR back in late 2021 and they were aggressively hiring and sponsoring Canadian and European. Crazy how quickly things changes.

Hope you’ll find a way to provide for you family and keep flying.
I’m in the opposite position and going back to airline flying will hurt me a lot financially unless I contract on the side. Especially with a guaranteed recession in 2023, imagine going back to flying only to get laid off 6 months later.

[Ash Ketchum]

Air Wisconsin should sponsor you and they should have direct entry Captain jobs on the CRJ if you have experience on type.

They rejected me when I applied last month. Apparently they are not taking more foreign pilots till 2024. I am on the Embraer so maybe Skywest or something although they aren't sponsoring now . I would still need the 1000 121 SIC to be PIC there.

Too bad. I actually spoke with their HR back in late 2021 and they were aggressively hiring and sponsoring Canadian and European. Crazy how quickly things changes.

Hope you’ll find a way to provide for you family and keep flying.
I’m in the opposite position and going back to airline flying will hurt me a lot financially unless I contract on the side. Especially with a guaranteed recession in 2023, imagine going back to flying only to get laid off 6 months later.

Nice, I read in another thread that you went into tech. I also have a background in tech (engineering and sales) and went back to that industry during Covid. Great industry that treats its employees with respect and pays them what they are worth.

[Meatservo]

I that they ought to be eligible for a doctor or lawyer's salary and a spiffy uniform

Give up! Go do something else!

I've been working in this industry for nearly 40 years. Back when I started a seasoned pilot was in the top 2% of salaries"
They were able to support the entire family on one salary easily.

Attitudes like yours who only aspire for mediocrity has, in my opinion, contributed to the downward spiral of this career.

Congratulations

Your reading comprehension skills aren't fantastic, are they? Why are you talking about "seasoned" pilots here?

[BDP1337]

Thank you for the helpful replies

There is no right answer; it's like picking a wife. What is your dream is not someone else's.

I will say that anyone who stays in Canada for the ridiculous salaries is doing themselves a financial disservice but if it works for your family, your wife has a great job? Awesome. I was offered a corporate jet job in Southern Ontario, signed the paperwork and quit the same day after my wife and I looked at the town/ company. It didn't work for us. I am sure there are a 1000 guys that might love that gig.

My wife doesn't work, handles our social calendar and raised the kids in a traditional situation.

If you're asking is money the only way? It's not. I know many happy Canadian married pilots living and raising kids back home. My kids were born overseas.

After 2 years of Covid and all the Canadian BulSht rules, I was salivating to get back.

I tried the Frontier thing, but even before that fell through had another job here.

-- I know what I want. It's to never see snow, live within 10 km of a beach, and to have an interesting well read circle of friends from diverse backgrounds.

Work out what you want and go from there.

This is the best summary of the discussion. This thread has Expats getting what they want in a career, others getting laid off during covid/not getting what they expected. Canadian pilots making a comfortable living with a family, and others that are unhappy with their position.

I was being too negative when I wrote this last night, there are certainly good ways to build a career as a pilot in Canada, the US, or the EU. But for some, it seems like the actions they took lead to outcomes they didn't expect, not that it's always their fault.

I"ll begin my PPL knowing there's opportunity out there, I just need to know what I want.

[porcsord]

[

I'm interested. Where are these King Air jobs based? Is it all up north or anything southern? My wife is a city girl so hard to get her to move north of Barrie...

You realize that you're saying "I can only work in Toronto" right? I mean by your definition Vancouver and Calgary would both be "North". Sometimes maybe the SAHM needs to make a sacrifice? You could work in Winnipeg making 130k for Missinippi for example. COL would be way less than the GTA and your income would be higher.

[Ash Ketchum]

[

I'm interested. Where are these King Air jobs based? Is it all up north or anything southern? My wife is a city girl so hard to get her to move north of Barrie...

You realize that you're saying "I can only work in Toronto" right? I mean by your definition Vancouver and Calgary would both be "North". Sometimes maybe the SAHM needs to make a sacrifice? You could work in Winnipeg making 130k for Missinippi for example. COL would be way less than the GTA and your income would be higher.

I had no idea King Air pay is up to that level. Back when I flew a King Air in 2016 captains made around 60-70k.

[eyebrow737]

Your reading comprehension skills aren't fantastic, are they? Why are you talking about "seasoned" pilots here?

Lol, that brought out the real you pretty fast didn't it? Knew it wouldn't take much.

[Hysteria]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

Curious, did you try Frontier with that FAA ATP?

https://www.allflyingjobs.com/jobs/a320 ... 650-usd-pm

[RoAF-Mig21]

Aviation in Canada as long been a career for the extremely passionate. If you want to be "logical" about it, you will never make it. There are so many challenges and sacrifices (at all stages: school, intro job, intermediate and so on...)
1. School costs a lot of money to get a degree and/or a CPL with a multi engine IFR rating
2. Working the ramp or instructing is not easy. You can be lucky and end up at a college than get hired by a regional
3. Entry level Regional F/O jobs don't pay well (at first) so you'll struggle financially, especially with this rampat inflation and abusrd cost of living
4. Even if you make it to the "majors", you will have to climb the ladder of seniority.

I didn't even mention the hard work and (health risks)...

Bottom line:
If you're doing it for the money and prestige, look elsewhere. If you do it because you love flying / aviation, then go for it...

[co-joe]

I've done a fair amount of research on what it takes to be a commercial pilot, and I've taken a discovery flight as well. I can confidently say this career interests me, and I'm ready to begin flight school. However, when considering the long term, there is no reasonable way I can justify having this career in Canada.

I am convinced the cost, time, and sacrifices required for a good position in this industry are not worth the salary you end up making....

Honestly if more people had the foresight you do, we might not be in this mess. There's still this pervasive belief in the world that all airline pilots all make bank. Every time pilots talk of job action, the media reminds everyone we all take limousines to work, only work 4 days a month, and all wear Rolexes. Somebody who's young, and capable of following any career path, looks down the road past the shiny jet syndrome sees this industry for what it really can be.

A lottery. And if you're born in the right year, have the right attitude, make the right connections, and have good timing, and most importantly are too stubborn to quit, you can be successful climbing the grease pole.

[munzil]

Lament Canada’s wages. They can definitely be better. But it’s part of the system that makes being a professional pilot this country likely one of the easiest in the world.

Sorry, how is being a pilot easier in Canada? I've flown all around the world in some very cushy well paid jobs. I've recently returned to Canada and haven't worked such long disjointed delayed hours for so little pay in my 30 year career. The airports are really a mess here.

However, I'm genuinely curious as to why you think this is one of the easiest in the world? I must be missing something.

[Ash Ketchum]

I am a regional captain with a stay at home wife, few kids and mortgage near YYZ. 90K gross family income doesn't go very far in SW Ontario so I have decided if I can't get a job outside of Canada in the next year I will leave this industry and go back to my previous career where the money was better. No desire to go to AC or any other "major" in Canada and make 60K in the right seat. I did get my FAA ATP but no one will sponsor me state side. I was thinking maybe Emirates but not sure if they are back to hiring.

Curious, did you try Frontier with that FAA ATP?

https://www.allflyingjobs.com/jobs/a320 ... 650-usd-pm

The frontier ad is the reason I pursued the FAA ATP. I have only had it for a little while so far and it looks like they may not be looking anymore. I foresee more airlines in the US sponsoring as long as we don't go into a big recession next year.

[digits_]

Lament Canada’s wages. They can definitely be better. But it’s part of the system that makes being a professional pilot this country likely one of the easiest in the world.

Sorry, how is being a pilot easier in Canada? I've flown all around the world in some very cushy well paid jobs. I've recently returned to Canada and haven't worked such long disjointed delayed hours for so little pay in my 30 year career. The airports are really a mess here.

However, I'm genuinely curious as to why you think this is one of the easiest in the world? I must be missing something.

It's (arguably) the easiest country to actually find a job as a pilot. The written tests are also much easier than the European tests.

[waterruddersup]

First off, don't let all the pathetic old boomers on here discourage you. They feed off "back in my day" delusions and think everyone has to suffer in this career path or they aren't worthy. Not to mention these stupid notions that aviation is a career of "passion for flying" and you have to do "anything it takes" to make it.
Very quickly you can begin to understand how these attitudes have led to wages and working conditions here that are utter garbage compared to the US and EU.

You are correct in a lot of what you are saying, and it can seem very daunting as someone just starting down this path. But this is a job like any other - you need commitment to be successful. I've never treated my flying career as anything more than a job. It's a job I enjoy but it's also not something I'm going to give up everything else I want in life for. As a few others have mentioned there are many paths beyond student>flight instructor>regionals>mainline. And many of them are high paying with arguably better quality of life.

Now, if you are intent on going abroad (which I honestly say good for you) there are many difficulties as well. Converting a Canadian license to FAA is very simple and straightforward but getting right to work in the US is not. There are rumblings that this might be changing, but at the moment it's basically impossible for anyone that doesn't have tons of flying experience already.

For Europe, there is no license conversion as far as I know - you are required to study for and write all the EASA exams like any new student pilot. There are many of them and they make TC exams look like kindergarten stuff. I have an EU passport and that licensing process alone has deterred me from pursuing it.

Anyway, I hope that if you really want this as a career you will be able to find the right path for you. Be it here or abroad.

Your first paragraph is absolutely on the money. There are far too many old grumps on here perpetuating the notion that one must "pay their dues" before they can be paid fairly. Such a mentality does so little to improve the shortcomings in Canadian aviation.

[twa22]

I've done a fair amount of research on what it takes to be a commercial pilot, and I've taken a discovery flight as well. I can confidently say this career interests me, and I'm ready to begin flight school. However, when considering the long term, there is no reasonable way I can justify having this career in Canada.

I am convinced the cost, time, and sacrifices required for a good position in this industry are not worth the salary you end up making....

Honestly if more people had the foresight you do, we might not be in this mess. There's still this pervasive belief in the world that all airline pilots all make bank. Every time pilots talk of job action, the media reminds everyone we all take limousines to work, only work 4 days a month, and all wear Rolexes. Somebody who's young, and capable of following any career path, looks down the road past the shiny jet syndrome sees this industry for what it really can be.

A lottery. And if you're born in the right year, have the right attitude, make the right connections, and have good timing, and most importantly are too stubborn to quit, you can be successful climbing the grease pole.

I'd also like to add that it's not a lottery just in Canada, but everywhere in the world. While it may be easier to get that first jet job in Europe, those exams, plus the cost of entry, makes pursuing an aviation career a lot riskier, or at least that was the case some years ago. When I was first looked to start my training over 10 years ago, some cadet programs in Europe cost north of 100k in some instances, you had to get your own financing for some, and in some cases you still had to pay for the type rating afterwards, all with no guarantees... now imagine being from eastern europe where, average wages are dogshit, coming up with that kind of money.

Canada, for better or worse, is relatively easy to get your license, at least the exams are MUCH easier, and the cost, if done right, can be significantly lower then other parts of the world. You follow this by the plethora of different opportunities, such as instructing, going up north, aerial survey, etc, and one can easily say that yes, there are truly indeed more opportunities for someone starting out their career here versus Europe, or other parts of the world, where really, being a cadet is more or less the only realistic option. Now that's not to say it can't be hard in Canada to find a job either, I have read here, and heard from others, that there was a time you couldn't get a Navajo job without 2000 hours... so it goes back to co-joes point about the right year....

Lastly, in Canada, the time spent till you get that first jet job, and the low wages, or at least, lower overall career wages versus those who get into a jet job right away... plus the shitty, arguably more dangerous work that comes with the first job or two, can easily deter someone from starting a career here vs elsewhere. With that said, I am cautiously optimistic we will be seeing salary gains here across the board in the next few years, hopefully...

I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, I think co-joe couldn't have said it any better, it really is a lottery...

[digits_]

While it may be easier to get that first jet job in Europe

It really isn't.

It's just that your first flying job in Europe will very likely be a jet job. It's a 'jet job' or 'nothing' really, with very few exceptions. All the stories suffer from survivorship bias.

It got a little bit better right before covid, but i believe the stats were something like 10% of pilots find a full time flying job in the 6 (!!!) years after getting their license.

Canada might not be perfect, but I think it's much higher than that here...

[twa22]

While it may be easier to get that first jet job in Europe

It really isn't.

It's just that your first flying job in Europe will very likely be a jet job. It's a 'jet job' or 'nothing' really, with very few exceptions. All the stories suffer from survivorship bias.

It got a little bit better right before covid, but i believe the stats were something like 10% of pilots find a full time flying job in the 6 (!!!) years after getting their license.

Canada might not be perfect, but I think it's much higher than that here...

Did you not read my entire post? I said "may" be easier, and I also said that Canada has a lot more opportunities overall, where as Europe you are essentially stuck to being a cadet and getting a jet job, or not much else, which I also clearly alluded too in the previous post...

[digits_]

While it may be easier to get that first jet job in Europe

It really isn't.

It's just that your first flying job in Europe will very likely be a jet job. It's a 'jet job' or 'nothing' really, with very few exceptions. All the stories suffer from survivorship bias.

It got a little bit better right before covid, but i believe the stats were something like 10% of pilots find a full time flying job in the 6 (!!!) years after getting their license.

Canada might not be perfect, but I think it's much higher than that here...

Did you not read my entire post? I said "may" be easier, and I also said that Canada has a lot more opportunities overall, where as Europe you are essentially stuck to being a cadet and getting a jet job, or not much else, which I also clearly alluded too in the previous post...

I did. I disagree with 'it may be easier'.

I don't think it is.

[twa22]

It really isn't.

It's just that your first flying job in Europe will very likely be a jet job. It's a 'jet job' or 'nothing' really, with very few exceptions. All the stories suffer from survivorship bias.

It got a little bit better right before covid, but i believe the stats were something like 10% of pilots find a full time flying job in the 6 (!!!) years after getting their license.

Canada might not be perfect, but I think it's much higher than that here...

Did you not read my entire post? I said "may" be easier, and I also said that Canada has a lot more opportunities overall, where as Europe you are essentially stuck to being a cadet and getting a jet job, or not much else, which I also clearly alluded too in the previous post...

I did. I disagree with 'it may be easier'.

I don't think it is.

Ok please explain why you think it isn't, I'm curious to understand the optics

[RockSalty]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Have you considered not flying for an airline. Myself and several colleagues are in the 120-150 range flying king airs.... is it air canada Skipper wages? No. But it's a comfortable living, I'm home every night and I have more free time than I know what to do with.

I'm interested. Where are these King Air jobs based? Is it all up north or anything southern? My wife is a city girl so hard to get her to move north of Barrie...

Pretty sure all the medevac outfits in Manitoba are paying skippers north of 100, and I think Missinippi even flies you in from anywhere served by an airline if you want to commute for your rotations

[digits_]

Did you not read my entire post? I said "may" be easier, and I also said that Canada has a lot more opportunities overall, where as Europe you are essentially stuck to being a cadet and getting a jet job, or not much else, which I also clearly alluded too in the previous post...

I did. I disagree with 'it may be easier'.

I don't think it is.

Ok please explain why you think it isn't, I'm curious to understand the optics

Same things you wrote and I mentioned earlier as well.

Higher cost, small chance of passing the selection of those programs, even smaller chance of passing selection processes of airlines. You'll need to speak the local language for most of those programs, or be a local resident, which severely limits your options.
Training is also a bit harder, but that's much less important than the previous reasons.

None of those things make it easier.

[Eric Janson]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Search 'Flightglobal jobs' - that lists jobs from a lot of places.

Secondly - register with all the Employment agencies and see what comes up.

There is nothing available that interests me at the present time - but that's me.

[flying4dollars]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Not trying to be a jerk, but if you can't support your family here, it's unlikely that you will be able to support your family on an expat wage. Very few people earn more money but keep the same lifestyle, so they come out ahead.

THIS!!

There are King Air jobs paying more that A320 Skippers. There are corporate gigs, firefighting.. whatever. Tell AC to get stuffed and make it for for you.

There are King Air jobs paying more than $180k/year??

[Ash Ketchum]

Which websites/agencies would you recommend for a Canadian airline pilot looking for expat opportunities? I am desperate to leave Canada as I can no longer support my family on the wages here.

Search 'Flightglobal jobs' - that lists jobs from a lot of places.

Secondly - register with all the Employment agencies and see what comes up.

There is nothing available that interests me at the present time - but that's me.

Thanks, I will look into that.