ACPA LOA?

[Fanblade]

Where is Gary Russell's resignation??

Shame on him for taking so long.

Either address the Membership with a clear explanation of your actions, or exit. Choose one.

We need some cohesion at the moment. How about when the MEC gets reconstituted.

[RippleRock]

Where is Gary Russell's resignation??

Shame on him for taking so long.

Either address the Membership with a clear explanation of your actions, or exit. Choose one.

We need some cohesion at the moment. How about when the MEC gets reconstituted.

It's well past time for real transparency.

Gary can tell us why he "crossed the floor". I suspect the reason. He is welcome be honest with us.

It's time for what's left of ACPA to come clean. Some trust must be restored.

[lenaumade]

Soooooo......No counter offer.........?

[futboler14]

Soooooo......No counter offer.........?

The No vote was a proxy vote of no confidence in ACPA. We better not see a counter offer.

This is playing out as I had hoped. Sure, being off flat pay would have been nice. But not at the expense of the recent failed MOA. This thread should be boring from here on out.

Sights move to 2023/2024.

[lenaumade]

Wow, the narrative changed fast.
From "we have a good leverage due to the company to have difficulty on the training side, so they re gonna come back with ta better offer" to that...ahah hilarious, I guess you re now ready to work for a union .

[Chips&Pops]

Wow, the narrative changed fast.
From "we have a good leverage due to the company to have difficulty on the training side, so they re gonna come back with ta better offer" to that...ahah hilarious, I guess you re now ready to work for a union .

Just move on kid, you'll thank us in a couple years when you'll be done with your flight training

[lenaumade]

Wow, the narrative changed fast.
From "we have a good leverage due to the company to have difficulty on the training side, so they re gonna come back with ta better offer" to that...ahah hilarious, I guess you re now ready to work for a union .

Just move on kid, you'll thank us in a couple of years?

Na na na, you all said the company could do better and come back with a better offer. Apparently, You were wrong.

Your prediction was as bad as the trudeau economical plan, full or s….t,
End of the day, flat pay stay and we re still the biggest joke of national carrier aviation.
Flat pay stay and you think it is a win…..?
Okay mate whatever . Seems somebody does not give a damn about new hire anyway….
As said before, you had nothing to gain out of it and that s why you voted no. Not about unity. Just about yourself.

And just enlight me on how the flatpayer would thank you back? For now, the loss is between 50 000$ to a 110000$ ? Tell me, I am very curious about how you re gonna make up this financial loss?

[Chips&Pops]

I'm deeply sorry your feelings were bruised. I understand it must be a tough time for you, as a new hire, to see what's happening right now. Sending thoughts and prayers for you tonight

[lenaumade]

I'm deeply sorry your feelings were bruised. I understand it must be a tough time for you, as a new hire, to see what's happening right now. Sending thoughts and prayers for you tonight 🙏
[/

Ooohhh how nice, thinking about my feelings for me, you re a keeper ;) I am okay mate, but thanks for checking on me Dr Phil,
As long as your convince that keeping the flat pay is a good things and will help our pilot group, we re all good mate 🤣

Don t forget to also light a candle for the 2023 negots and lots of prayer mate, lots of them

[PostmasterGeneral]

Ooohhh how nice, thinking about my feelings for me, you re a keeper I am okay mate, but thanks for checking on me Dr Phil,
As long as your convince that keeping the flat pay is a good things and will help our pilot group, we re all good mate

Don t forget to also light a candle for the 2023 negots and lots of prayer mate, lots of them

Man, I'm starting to think you never read the MOA at all... Yes, it shortened flat pay, but look at all the other crap that was attached to it. That's why it was voted down. Stop being so fixated on the flat pay thing.

Let me spell this out for you so it's easy to understand:

Improvement to year 3&4 flat pay: GOOD

Year 13&14 pay: still doesn't keep up with inflation. BAD
Increase to WB DBM: BAD
Scope let tier 2 codeshare: BAD
Cargo wet lease agreement: BAD
Janky wording around 777 Cargo ops: BAD
Year 1&2 flat pay: BAD. Barely a raise.
"Training flexibility" with no concrete language: BAD
Jazz "mobility agreement: BAD

Are you getting the picture yet? If that doesn't make it clear enough for you, I guess you're beyond help.

[schnitzel2k3]

Wow, the narrative changed fast.
From "we have a good leverage due to the company to have difficulty on the training side, so they re gonna come back with ta better offer" to that...ahah hilarious, I guess you re now ready to work for a union .

Just move on kid, you'll thank us in a couple of years?

Na na na, you all said the company could do better and come back with a better offer. Apparently, You were wrong.

Your prediction was as bad as the trudeau economical plan, full or s….t,
End of the day, flat pay stay and we re still the biggest joke of national carrier aviation.
Flat pay stay and you think it is a win…..?
Okay mate whatever . Seems somebody does not give a damn about new hire anyway….
As said before, you had nothing to gain out of it and that s why you voted no. Not about unity. Just about yourself.

And just enlight me on how the flatpayer would thank you back? For now, the loss is between 50 000$ to a 110000$ ? Tell me, I am very curious about how you re gonna make up this financial loss?

You're the only one you can blame when you chose to go to AC under its current WAWCON. The MOA was a steaming pile of garbage that would've shot you in the foot going into 2024 and I'm glad, what, 80%+ of the pilot group agreed. Gotta live on food stamps for a few more years while y'all come together to carve out this cancer of a former agreement.

[rooster]

Na na na, you all said the company could do better and come back with a better offer. Apparently, You were wrong.

Your prediction was as bad as the trudeau economical plan, full or s….t,
End of the day, flat pay stay and we re still the biggest joke of national carrier aviation.
Flat pay stay and you think it is a win…..?
Okay mate whatever . Seems somebody does not give a damn about new hire anyway….
As said before, you had nothing to gain out of it and that s why you voted no. Not about unity. Just about yourself.

And just enlight me on how the flatpayer would thank you back? For now, the loss is between 50 000$ to a 110000$ ? Tell me, I am very curious about how you re gonna make up this financial loss?

Are you dumb? Even if the group voted yes, flat pay was still going to be in existence and the salaries were still the biggest joke of the industry. Voting that offer down means bigger gains at the negotiating table. There should not even BE a flat pay to begin with. What's wrong with you? And nobody said the company would necessarily come back right away with a counter. You are not even looking at the big picture. You're like a child blinded by a shiny new toy. You're also pouting like one.

Stay strong AC brothers and sisters. The rest of us in the industry needs you to raise the bar. We all win.

[TheAlcalde]

66525B2E-DECC-4175-9BA5-E026BC208012.jpeg (75.58 KiB) Viewed 2466 times

[dhc2pilot]

I'm deeply sorry your feelings were bruised. I understand it must be a tough time for you, as a new hire, to see what's happening right now. Sending thoughts and prayers for you tonight
[/

Ooohhh how nice, thinking about my feelings for me, you re a keeper I am okay mate, but thanks for checking on me Dr Phil,
As long as your convince that keeping the flat pay is a good things and will help our pilot group, we re all good mate

Don t forget to also light a candle for the 2023 negots and lots of prayer mate, lots of them

You must be Montreal based.

[lenaumade]

I'm deeply sorry your feelings were bruised. I understand it must be a tough time for you, as a new hire, to see what's happening right now. Sending thoughts and prayers for you tonight
[/

Ooohhh how nice, thinking about my feelings for me, you re a keeper I am okay mate, but thanks for checking on me Dr Phil,
As long as your convince that keeping the flat pay is a good things and will help our pilot group, we re all good mate

Don t forget to also light a candle for the 2023 negots and lots of prayer mate, lots of them

You must be Montreal based.

No I am not in yul base but is that supposed to be an insult on some sort? I feel so wounded …wow…it was powerfull

[flyinhigh]

No I am not in yul base but is that supposed to be an insult on some sort? I feel so wounded …wow…it was powerfull

Must be Capt Keith's new handle. Hard to make a video on salaries when your salary is a joke eh. There is more to a job than JUST salary, read the MOA in its entirety and than list what was good in there for the AC group.

[lenaumade]

Ooohhh how nice, thinking about my feelings for me, you re a keeper I am okay mate, but thanks for checking on me Dr Phil,
As long as your convince that keeping the flat pay is a good things and will help our pilot group, we re all good mate

Don t forget to also light a candle for the 2023 negots and lots of prayer mate, lots of them

Man, I'm starting to think you never read the MOA at all... Yes, it shortened flat pay, but look at all the other crap that was attached to it. That's why it was voted down. Stop being so fixated on the flat pay thing.

Let me spell this out for you so it's easy to understand:

Improvement to year 3&4 flat pay: GOOD

Year 13&14 pay: still doesn't keep up with inflation. BAD
Increase to WB DBM: BAD
Scope let tier 2 codeshare: BAD
Cargo wet lease agreement: BAD
Janky wording around 777 Cargo ops: BAD
Year 1&2 flat pay: BAD. Barely a raise.
"Training flexibility" with no concrete language: BAD
Jazz "mobility agreement: BAD

Are you getting the picture yet? If that doesn't make it clear enough for you, I guess you're beyond help.

Ooohhh how nice, thinking about my feelings for me, you re a keeper I am okay mate, but thanks for checking on me Dr Phil,
As long as your convince that keeping the flat pay is a good things and will help our pilot group, we re all good mate

Don t forget to also light a candle for the 2023 negots and lots of prayer mate, lots of them

Man, I'm starting to think you never read the MOA at all... Yes, it shortened flat pay, but look at all the other crap that was attached to it. That's why it was voted down. Stop being so fixated on the flat pay thing.

Let me spell this out for you so it's easy to understand:

Improvement to year 3&4 flat pay: GOOD

Year 13&14 pay: still doesn't keep up with inflation. BAD
Increase to WB DBM: BAD
Scope let tier 2 codeshare: BAD
Cargo wet lease agreement: BAD
Janky wording around 777 Cargo ops: BAD
Year 1&2 flat pay: BAD. Barely a raise.
"Training flexibility" with no concrete language: BAD
Jazz "mobility agreement: BAD

Are you getting the picture yet? If that doesn't make it clear enough for you, I guess you're beyond help.

So first, this MOA was not a unicorn deal. But it was not so bad in a way where the major gain was the end of the flatpay. That s what the poll we all answered few month ago reflected.
The company came back with some demands about training. And the union negotiated the flatpay out of it.
Simple.

A lots of you, on this forum, was sure that the company would come back with a better offer.
Read this threads: the argument was that with the training issue leverage, the company would have no choice.

So, lots of people, voted NO accordingly.
Flatpay guys voted to negotiate more, a new MOA.
If they would have known that it was a final offer. I bet the results would have differed.

As was rrjpilot explaining to me : the company will come back with a better offer and as adults to renegotiate.

Still waiting...

Silly me who just thought that the company will not come back to the table.

Wrong vision and obviously a failed strategy. Those guys cannot even recognized their assessments was wrong and change now their narrative. That s my main point here.

I do not see as a good strategy to have to negotiate the flat pay…. again…Making concessions….again…maybe bigger this time.

useless to say it again because it is no anyway but just for the sake of argumentation.

Point by point now:

Flat pay out, good - better than today
Year 1 and 2 : good - better than today.
Year 13 and 14th. Better than what you got today

This MOA was not a contract renegotiation. And there was some confusions about that.

Training flexibility: being removed from fo to augmented on a flight. With the same wages….ok what s the big deal on that one seriously?
Having the possibility to go over 85dbm and go to training, why not.

Wet lease: only 12 months…great tools to negotiates some other gains later if they want to continue with that.

777captain pay: good, that was pretty straight forward, 100% pay, why is it not good again? You voted yes for a reduction in wages….and now you vote NO for an increase in wages….?? Yeah….make total sense to me…

Jazz loa: super good for those guys, I know you do not care about those guys but I would have been happy to welcome them in better conditions than when I arrived.
We don t bargain for the jazz guys you ll tell me so we must not care about them.
some of you did exactly the same for the first PML…I did not hear too much complaint at the time huh

Flatpay cannot be completely removed, there is flatpay in all the us carrier. However, Only for a year.

Dbm at 85 was a bad point, but again, 24 more hours per year is not the end of the world and that was a concessions. We could have work on that on a later terms.

The p4c group elected Gary Russell and Andre Soucy, I voted for those guys too.
They seemed to have voted yes. Not because it is a perfect MOA but because the advantages were greater than the disadvantages in their opinions.


So the reality is that now…we stay on flatpay, the company will find others solutions for the training. Nobody got any gains and we stay with our contract

You re telling me I am a sell out? You think you work for glory?
Weren't you just telling me that raise of the wages were not enough? So because of that you voted down this MOA, because you also rightfully wanted more money….

How do you think the Negots in 2023 will go?
The union (either Alpa or Acpa, same stuff) will have to make some concessions in order to make some gains.
You will all vote NO, cause you wait for this unicorn deal with no concessions, just gains.

It will go on arbitration and we ll take the corporate shitty deal…as usual…

Juuusssstttt as it happened on the last contract…

[lenaumade]

No I am not in yul base but is that supposed to be an insult on some sort? I feel so wounded …wow…it was powerfull

Must be Capt Keith's new handle. Hard to make a video on salaries when your salary is a joke eh. There is more to a job than JUST salary, read the MOA in its entirety and than list what was good in there for the AC group.

Don t know who is your buddy pal, but don t tell me that it is not about money and at the same time that the company does not bring enough « money » to the table due to inflation eh?

[lenamade]

I will add I just really want to get out of my parents basement and was really hoping these concessions were the way to go

I had my eye on a shoebox of an apartment with these awesome wages

My mom says I'm a good pilot but she always made fun of me on how I barely passed history. Too lazy to read about successful individuals that had courage. Spent all my time on Facebook with others from Montreal.

[lenaumade]

No way!! way to go lenamade!! It takes courage to come forward like that!!

Your mum is right, you should have review your history and mostly how we ended with this shitty deal for our pilot group.

Say hi to your mum

P.S : I feel kind of proud that you took the time to create a fake account impersonating me

[schnitzel2k3]

No way!! way to go lenamade!! It takes courage to come forward like that!!

Your mum is right, you should have review your history and mostly how we ended with this shitty deal for our pilot group.

Say hi to your mum

P.S : I feel kind of proud that you took the time to create a fake account impersonating me

Dude, in all seriousness, stay as far away from the negotiations as you can. You are a danger to the progress of the next set of bargaining rounds.

[lenaumade]

yeah Dude, staying to the lowest wages for a national carrier seems a very good things. What is the next bargaining round dude? MOA2.0 or Renegot 2023?

[daedalusx]

yeah Dude, staying to the lowest wages for a national carrier seems a very good things. What is the next bargaining round dude? MOA2.0 or Renegot 2023?

The LOA would have still made AC the lowest wages for a national carrier ... not sure what's your point here ...

[lenaumade]

Na na na, you all said the company could do better and come back with a better offer. Apparently, You were wrong.

Your prediction was as bad as the trudeau economical plan, full or s….t,
End of the day, flat pay stay and we re still the biggest joke of national carrier aviation.
Flat pay stay and you think it is a win…..?
Okay mate whatever . Seems somebody does not give a damn about new hire anyway….
As said before, you had nothing to gain out of it and that s why you voted no. Not about unity. Just about yourself.

And just enlight me on how the flatpayer would thank you back? For now, the loss is between 50 000$ to a 110000$ ? Tell me, I am very curious about how you re gonna make up this financial loss?

Are you dumb? Even if the group voted yes, flat pay was still going to be in existence and the salaries were still the biggest joke of the industry. Voting that offer down means bigger gains at the negotiating table. There should not even BE a flat pay to begin with. What's wrong with you? And nobody said the company would necessarily come back right away with a counter. You are not even looking at the big picture. You're like a child blinded by a shiny new toy. You're also pouting like one.

Stay strong AC brothers and sisters. The rest of us in the industry needs you to raise the bar. We all win.

Did you just woke up man? it is litterally what was said on this forum and on the after meetings that was held in yyz. The end of all the discussions was "they can do better than that" meaning waiting for a counter. i literally ask to some members here if we should wait for a counter. And the answer was yes. Now that there is no counter offer, the narrative changed and it is about renegot 2023. Suddenly we don t hear that anymore.

There should not be any flatpay. Agree. A lot of US carrier got a one year flat pay then go to fomula pay.

Are you dumb ? how come 4 years flatpay is the same than 2 years flatpay with an increased in wages on the 2 years. Have you not seen the increase in wages on MOA? How come our situations evolved here?

You wanted a unicorn deal without any concessions, news for you, you re at AC, there will always be concessions, don t be a kid please.

And can you explain to me how voting this MOA down will means bigger gains at the negotiating tables?

[lenaumade]

yeah Dude, staying to the lowest wages for a national carrier seems a very good things. What is the next bargaining round dude? MOA2.0 or Renegot 2023?

The LOA would have still made AC the lowest wages for a national carrier ... not sure what's your point here ...

So let s not help us bringing up wages and stay even lower?