ALPA Petition

[Dash.Trash]

So without “spreading mis-information”, what are the implications of “Group A” status? (Not being an ALPA member I am ignorant of their airline “groupings.).” Will Group A status prevent the possibility of all the other ALPA(C) airlines joining together and dictating terms and policies to the detriment of the Air Canada pilots? This was essentially the issue in 1994 with CALPA.

Providing the constitutional changes are as they were previously agreed to, Air Canada pilots would be involved in the following ways:

Group A status (4000 members or $10,000,000 in dues). Seat at the big boy table. Whatever you want to call it. You get your own Executive Vice President to further the objectives and policies set by the Association's Board of Directors and Executive Board.

https://www.alpa.org/about-alpa/our-leadership/evp

Canada Board and roll call voting. Our MEC chair would have a seat on the Canada board along side all of the other Canadian carriers. When voting by roll call each MEC chair will one vote for each member they represent ie. Air Canada would have 4000+ votes. This is a significant change from the current “one airline, one vote” system and respects our size and dues contributions we would bring.

Could all the other airlines band together and vote against us on something? It’s possible (I believe all ALPA Canada members is currently around 5500), but the issue being voted on would have to be pretty divisive for such an event to occur.

Overall, the benefits we would be entitled to far outweigh the costs and you can look at the past 20 years history and see that ACPA has not been able to deliver gains for our members and we cannot continue on the current path.

I appreciate you seeking clarity on these issues instead of blindly buying into the fear-mongering that always surfaces with this subject. Once we can get talks restarted, merger negotiations underway and some roadshows, the no-bullshit truth will finally be available so members can decide for themselves on the path forward.

[Dash.Trash]

It’s also worth noting that some of these constitutional changes have already been implemented at the recent Board of Directors meeting a couple weeks ago. Mainly the separation of the ALPA Canada President from the Group C EVP role. It used to be the ALPA Canada president was automatically the Group C EVP, now they are separate roles, giving Canadian carriers a broader voice and dividing the duties of both positions.

https://www.alpa.org/news-and-events/ne ... d-officers

[sportingrifle]

Dash Trash…
Thank you for your informative reply- most helpful.
The potentially divisive issue that I am contemplating, that was an issue with CALPA in 1994, was a merger policy.

Sportingrifle

[Dash.Trash]

Dash Trash…
Thank you for your informative reply- most helpful.
The potentially divisive issue that I am contemplating, that was an issue with CALPA in 1994, was a merger policy.

Sportingrifle

Sure, another common topic. Here is a summary of the current ALPA merger policy:

http://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fil ... tabid=3345

The bread and butter:
“The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.

The new merger policy mandates that merger representatives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate.”

Note there is no mention of Date of Hire. And also note that the Air Canada Pilot Seniority List is not date of hire. Finally, if the parties can not agree on a fair and equitable seniority list integration, it goes to arbitration anyway, as would be the case if we were in separate unions. Mergers will happen if the corporation decides it wants to. Which union we belong to will have no factor in their decision. “If we switch to ALPA the company will buy Transat” is one of the oldest fear-mongering tricks in the book, and as illustrated by what happened a few years ago, they will do it anyway if they want to.

If the concern is in regards to a possible re-integration of the Express fleet, just re-read “career expectations, longevity, and status and category.” If the concern is 20 year Jazz pilots magically sliding into 777 captain spots, there is just about zero chance of that happening. Both MECs would be smart enough to know that, as would an arbitrator.

And under the current ownership structure, see the following excerpt from a 2018 ACPA newsletter:

“3.Seniority: No erosion/discussion of seniority rights

Why is this important to ACPA? In Section 45 of ALPA’s administrative manual, an individual MEC could potentially trigger an ALPA review of the operational relationships between two or more ALPA airlines that could, in turn lead to seniority integration.

Resolution: ACPA has received formal confirmation from ALPA that, based on the current ownership structure and other commercial details, the provisions of Section 45 would not be triggered by a merger of ALPA and ACPA. This ensures that any successful ratification of a merger agreement would not create any seniority integration between existing ALPA Air Canada Express pilot groups in Canada and the pilots of Air Canada under ALPA.”

Hope that helps.

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Dash Trash…
Thank you for your informative reply- most helpful.
The potentially divisive issue that I am contemplating, that was an issue with CALPA in 1994, was a merger policy.

Sportingrifle

If the concern is in regards to a possible re-integration of the Express fleet, just re-read “career expectations, longevity, and status and category.” If the concern is 20 year Jazz pilots magically sliding into 777 captain spots, there is just about zero chance of that happening. Both MECs would be smart enough to know that, as would an arbitrator.

A precedent was set with GGN and SKY DOH merger/integration or whatever you want to call it at Jazz.

Should an integration happen with AC nothing less should be accepted. Mind you their should definitely be fences that would prevent prop only guys to go direct left seat 777.

[hithere]

Dash Trash…
Thank you for your informative reply- most helpful.
The potentially divisive issue that I am contemplating, that was an issue with CALPA in 1994, was a merger policy.

Sportingrifle

If the concern is in regards to a possible re-integration of the Express fleet, just re-read “career expectations, longevity, and status and category.” If the concern is 20 year Jazz pilots magically sliding into 777 captain spots, there is just about zero chance of that happening. Both MECs would be smart enough to know that, as would an arbitrator.

A precedent was set with GGN and SKY DOH merger/integration or whatever you want to call it at Jazz.

Should an integration happen with AC nothing less should be accepted. Mind you their should definitely be fences that would prevent prop only guys to go direct left seat 777.

You are out of your mind. I’m a Jazz pilot and DOH is neither expected by Jazz pilots nor would it be allowed by either the AC pilots or an arbitrator. Furthermore guys that only have turboprop time would not be able to go direct left seat on a wide body for insurance reasons alone. Stop your fear mongering.You sound like an idiot

[Loon-A-Tic]

If any Jazz pilot regardless of their seniority number or previous aircraft type experience thinks they will be offered DOH in an AC/Jazz merger they are ON CRACK.

[hithere]

If any Jazz pilot regardless of their seniority number or previous aircraft type experience thinks they will be offered DOH in an AC/Jazz merger they are ON CRACK.

That is what I’m telling you, they do not expect DOH. There may be a few crazies(like in any operation) that think this but they are outliers so you can all calm down

[canadian_aviator_4]

If any Jazz pilot regardless of their seniority number or previous aircraft type experience thinks they will be offered DOH in an AC/Jazz merger they are ON CRACK.

I’m guessing you are an AC pilot. Overall the industry is unpredictable and anything could happen. Doh could happen, or Jazz could completely eliminate flow. Or something in between. The real thing on crack is Canadian aviation.

[negroni]

If any Jazz pilot regardless of their seniority number or previous aircraft type experience thinks they will be offered DOH in an AC/Jazz merger they are ON CRACK.

I’m guessing you are an AC pilot. Overall the industry is unpredictable and anything could happen. Doh could happen, or Jazz could completely eliminate flow. Or something in between. The real thing on crack is Canadian aviation.

DOH is never going to happen. You really need to stop dreaming.

[Loon-A-Tic]

If any Jazz pilot regardless of their seniority number or previous aircraft type experience thinks they will be offered DOH in an AC/Jazz merger they are ON CRACK.

I’m guessing you are an AC pilot. Overall the industry is unpredictable and anything could happen. Doh could happen, or Jazz could completely eliminate flow. Or something in between. The real thing on crack is Canadian aviation.

DOH is never going to happen. You really need to stop dreaming.

Nope, your wrong on that one I'm NOT an AC pilot

[negroni]

I’m guessing you are an AC pilot. Overall the industry is unpredictable and anything could happen. Doh could happen, or Jazz could completely eliminate flow. Or something in between. The real thing on crack is Canadian aviation.

DOH is never going to happen. You really need to stop dreaming.

Nope, your wrong on that one I'm NOT an AC pilot

AC doesn't even have a DOH seniority list.

So many dreamers on this site.

[altiplano]

Dash Trash…
Thank you for your informative reply- most helpful.
The potentially divisive issue that I am contemplating, that was an issue with CALPA in 1994, was a merger policy.

Sportingrifle

If the concern is in regards to a possible re-integration of the Express fleet, just re-read “career expectations, longevity, and status and category.” If the concern is 20 year Jazz pilots magically sliding into 777 captain spots, there is just about zero chance of that happening. Both MECs would be smart enough to know that, as would an arbitrator.

A precedent was set with GGN and SKY DOH merger/integration or whatever you want to call it at Jazz.

Should an integration happen with AC nothing less should be accepted. Mind you their should definitely be fences that would prevent prop only guys to go direct left seat 777.

Precedent is based on s previous arbitration or judgment, this was not that, it was an agreement between two parties flying comparable equipment and routes at comparable pay, longevity, and expectation.

If an equipment with pilot transfer were to happen - big if - it would be a stapled list, possibly with fences allowing an option for Jazz CAs to keep their current seat, which is essentially what AC wanted us to do with the recent MOA.

And that would be a great deal, keep your seat with a big pay uplift onto mainline formula. and maintain YOS for pay.

[Ratherbe]

The question was asked about the relationship between ALPA (C) and ALPA-I and how Air Canada pilots would function within them.

Those constitutional changes are what was agreed to at the time. Yes, the process was put on hold for various reasons (politics, Transat), but there are new representatives at ALPA Canada and on the Board of Directors at ALPA. There is no reason we wouldn’t be offered the same deal this time around. And it will be put to the membership to decide if it’s the right move.

So you admit to spreading false information. Nice.

The discussions between ACPA and ALPA are likely over now. Instead, if the petition is successful, there will be a sales job by the team from the US of A and then a vote. Unless we get a voting seat at the big boys table it’s a hard NO.

So can anyone share what the new ALPA BOD changed in regards to the previous agreement? Is it the same deal?

[negroni]

Great question for them at the roadshow that will come!

Until then you should probably log off and chill out because all you're doing is getting people more riled up for ALPA. And bringing more attention to the false narrative that's being spread around. Pilots aren't as dumb as you seem to think they are.

[Dias]

New member survey is out via email

[Jester123]

Is ALPA really the answer, or is it the people who represent us and can use the powers of collective bargaining to benefit the whole group?

[rudder]

Is ALPA really the answer, or is it the people who represent us and can use the powers of collective bargaining to benefit the whole group?

ALPA has resources, structure, a constitution, and oversight.

Not perfect. Nothing is. The model is ‘pilots representing pilots’ with professional staff and resources that are unrivalled in the organized labour universe.

But it will still require quality volunteers to represent the group. ALPA also offers training for both elected and committee reps plus access to peers for advice, information, or support.

[RippleRock]

It's pretty hilarious watching our former ACPA representatives out in force spewing garbage in an attempt to sway opinion against ALPA.

Here's a fact. If they are against it, it is the RIGHT MOVE.

See through their petty vindictiveness over losing their full displacements. We couldn't possibly do worse by not pitching ACPA and -any vestige of it- in the garbage can as fast as possible. Expect a full-on assault of misinformation and disparaging comments about it.

Here's a question. What Legacy Carrier has ever done a pilot merger with a regional feeder that is owned in whole by a separate company? Not one.

Chorus is a separate contractor providing regional feed services, that's it. There's a similar case to merge our ground handlers date of hire, with those of Swissport. Think about it.

[Jester123]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

[BTD]

8095CE5D-FDA4-42CE-9008-5BC569C91449.jpeg (61.75 KiB) Viewed 3049 times

[altiplano]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

500.

[PostmasterGeneral]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

Ugh. Again with this crap?

[eurotrash]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

Ugh. Again with this crap?

As painful it is to see - good to review why ACPA has continued to exist despite abysmal performance

The fear & schmear campaign for the old guard & company has been an effective lifeline to an organization that has caused countless damage to this profession

[Fanblade]

How would a potential acquisition of Jazz Aviation LP by Air Canada play out for pilot group integration?

It would most likely play out like it did in the past when the regionals were wholly owned by Air Canada. Zero integration.

Pilots flying tier two or three aircraft are not required to be on the AC pilot seniority list. It’s an exemption under scope. It is for the same reason Transat would have had to merge. The size of aircraft they were flying was not exempt. Those pilots had to be on the seniority list.

ACPA has in its contract that AC will not pursue common employer.

A Common employer attempt from the regionals failed.

ALPA merger policy is not DOH. More importantly an arbitrator would decide the outcome and only cares about the arguments and jurisprudence before him or her. A policy is meaningless.

If Air Canada did decide on an operational merger with Jazz. Then I would much rather be represented by ALPA. Canadian ALPA kicked ACPA’s butt in the 2003 merger.

Regional airlines in North America are in for a big shakeup moving forward. The twin combo of a pilot shortage and higher salaries at regionals makes repatriation to mainline highly likely. Upgauge the aircraft and reduce frequency. None of this happens overnight as it takes time for more small NB’s to be ordered and delivered.

One issue AC may very well have is a need to right size the Jazz CPA to todays reality. They may see purchasing Jazz as a way to nullify the CPA and do the right sizing. But again purchasing Jazz and merging with Jazz are separate animals.

Although regionals may be under pressure to change under our current reality it does not mean they are no longer needed. Far from it. Merging Jazz into mainline would mean the mainline cost structure on regional routes. Highly unlikely. If they did they would shortly there after be creating another regional.

So may AC buy Jazz back? Certainly an option. If they do buy Jazz back will they need to merge it with mainline? No. Does it make economic sense to merge it with mainline? No. Is there history of Jazz running as a wholly owned subsidiary of AC? Yes