Instructing vs Ramp

[digits_]

You can often tell if your captain used to be an instructor or not. Instructing is much better than the ramp route, assuming you have a choice.

You can certainly tell if your colleague has worked up North - will show in their attitude and aircraft handling.

Things I've learned operating in the North have kept me out of trouble flying large jets. Also a useful background for my current job (Global ACMI) where you could be sent anywhere with minimal support.

Agree 100%. When I'm flying with someone with lots of time up north, the atmosphere is much more "relaxed". Still professional, but you can tell if the you know what hits the fan, you're both going to have no problem working the issue. On the other hand, I find the guys I fly with that have lots of instructing time, tend to be much more "uneasy." (Perhaps nervous is a better word) when issues arise.

Both these remarks might only be valid if you compare a pilot who *flew* up North, not one who merely worked the ramp to an FI. That's the choice that was being discussed: work the ramp for a year (without flying) or fly as an instructor for a year.

[Eric Janson]

You can certainly tell if your colleague has worked up North - will show in their attitude and aircraft handling.

Things I've learned operating in the North have kept me out of trouble flying large jets. Also a useful background for my current job (Global ACMI) where you could be sent anywhere with minimal support.

Agree 100%. When I'm flying with someone with lots of time up north, the atmosphere is much more "relaxed". Still professional, but you can tell if the you know what hits the fan, you're both going to have no problem working the issue. On the other hand, I find the guys I fly with that have lots of instructing time, tend to be much more "uneasy." (Perhaps nervous is a better word) when issues arise.

Both these remarks might only be valid if you compare a pilot who *flew* up North, not one who merely worked the ramp to an FI. That's the choice that was being discussed: work the ramp for a year (without flying) or fly as an instructor for a year.

Obviously a ramp job is supposed to lead into a flying position - this discussion would make no sense otherwise.

Working on the ramp is a selection procedure at a lot of places - the owner(s) want to see who you are before investing money in you. Some people don't understand this.

Even on the ramp you can learn useful skills.

Example:- I learned all about single point refuelling. A few years ago I came out to a cold and dark A340-500. The engineer had been called away to a different location to deal with a serious issue on another aircraft. My colleague worked inside and I was outside setting up the fuel panel - no issues.

No regrets starting on the ramp here - I never paid for any of my PPCs.

[photofly]

Working on the ramp is a selection procedure at a lot of places - the owner(s) want to see who you are before investing money in you. Some people don't understand this.

So... a proportion of CPL-qualified bag slingers don't pass "selection"? That's a dirty little secret nobody talks about, then. What proportion, and what happens to them?

[digits_]

Obviously a ramp job is supposed to lead into a flying position - this discussion would make no sense otherwise.

And yet that's the main reason a lot of people do not recommend taking a ramp spot, because there is no such guarantee. A lot of people get stuck in a ramp position for much longer than what would be considered fair. Working the ramp for 2 years instead of a week, does not advance your aviation career.

At least if you're 'stuck' in a crappy flying job, or an FI job, you're building flying hours in a commercial environment.

It doesn't take 2 years or even a month to learn to operate a fuel panel or a forklift or how to load an airplane. It's an excuse to get cheap labour.

If you take an FI job, in 2 years you're pretty much guaranteed to have accumulated 1500 hours.
If you take a ramp job, in 2 years you might have accumulated 0 hours, or you might have 1800 hours. It's a gamble.

[Heavy Rayn]

Why not go the best of both worlds route, get the instructor rating, teach for a year or two and then go direct to an FO seat up north. A year or two instructing paired with a couple years up north is a great combo in my eyes. May take slightly longer to get a seniority number somewhere but at least you’ll get to do some fun flying and make lifelong memories and develop lifelong skills in the meantime. Life isn’t all about a seniority number. Gotta remember to live

[Troubled Coffee]

No guarantees in aviation....just look at the musical chairs every few years.

As someone who did instruct and charter long enough to acquire the ATPL... I still ended up doing almost 3 years ramp.

It was an education in patience to coach the fresh CPLs ahead of me, as to what to say on the radio and remind them of what they had forgotten since flight school....

I would recommend finding out where you want to end up and make a path.... If its airlines, go ramp, Firefighting, go instruct then spray....if its seasonal bush flying, then ramp and instruct.....

Either way you will move forward, just dont do what I did

[Eric Janson]

Working on the ramp is a selection procedure at a lot of places - the owner(s) want to see who you are before investing money in you. Some people don't understand this.

So... a proportion of CPL-qualified bag slingers don't pass "selection"? That's a dirty little secret nobody talks about, then. What proportion, and what happens to them?

I'm going by my personal experiences. And yes - some people don't move from the ramp to a flying position.

I stand by my previous remarks - the owner himself explained his philosophy to me.

[daedalusx]

I've seen some CPL bag slingers who I wouldn't trust with walking my dogs.

Get real, if you have an IQ slightly above room temperature, you can get a CPL ... it's really not that hard.

[daedalusx]

You can often tell if your captain used to be an instructor or not. Instructing is much better than the ramp route, assuming you have a choice.

You can certainly tell if your colleague has worked up North - will show in their attitude and aircraft handling.

Things I've learned operating in the North have kept me out of trouble flying large jets. Also a useful background for my current job (Global ACMI) where you could be sent anywhere with minimal support.

Agree 100%. When I'm flying with someone with lots of time up north, the atmosphere is much more "relaxed". Still professional, but you can tell if the you know what hits the fan, you're both going to have no problem working the issue. On the other hand, I find the guys I fly with that have lots of instructing time, tend to be much more "uneasy." (Perhaps nervous is a better word) when issues arise.

My favs were the dudes we went straight from instructing, to jazz/encore then immediately to the training dept because they couldn't handle the line flying. Then once in a while they'd show up on a pairing and it always felt like they were about to have an heart attack.

Good times.

Best pairings flying regionals were with Boreks dudes hands down. Especially those who flew the Basler down south

[photofly]

Working on the ramp is a selection procedure at a lot of places - the owner(s) want to see who you are before investing money in you. Some people don't understand this.

So... a proportion of CPL-qualified bag slingers don't pass "selection"? That's a dirty little secret nobody talks about, then. What proportion, and what happens to them?

I'm going by my personal experiences. And yes - some people don't move from the ramp to a flying position.

I stand by my previous remarks - the owner himself explained his philosophy to me.

I’m sure you’re right. Just something that anyone planning to fly in the north should know, that there’s another selection to pass, and the criteria aren’t as open as the CPL flight test guide.

[rookiepilot]

I've seen some CPL bag slingers who I wouldn't trust with walking my dogs.

Get real, if you have an IQ slightly above room temperature, you can get a CPL ... it's really not that hard.

My view, not as an instructor or a paid commercial pilot, its hard to gain adequate experience via a CPL rating alone, and I wonder, while instructing may be valuable for CRM and other skills, if it doesn’t provide enough diversity of experience.

As a 1000 hr pilot, (still extremely inexperienced) my experience grew the most on long, challenging cross country flights, involving weather, winds, terrain, different airports, darkness, ect, and combinations of all of these.

Any one region, southern Ontario in my case, only has so much diversity of experience. I’ve learned a ton more flying in Northern Ontario, to New York and east coast, (busy airspace) Florida,(same, plus weather) the US southwest, (weather and terrain) and out to the West coast. (Ditto)

Mountain wave, icing, black hole effect, wind shear, thunderstorms, diverting, illusions, fatigue, tunnel vision….all priceless lessons to be learned that can’t be fully appreciated by a textbook

[photofly]

That is the argument against the European model of 200 hr cadet pilots going directly to the right seat of a 737 in revenue service. But leaving aside the opinion of the person in the left seat, is there any evidence it impacts safety?

[Eric Janson]

That is the argument against the European model of 200 hr cadet pilots going directly to the right seat of a 737 in revenue service. But leaving aside the opinion of the person in the left seat, is there any evidence it impacts safety?

I see nobody has discussed this. I have some experience with this at an Asian Flag Carrier.

A group of Cadets started about the same time as me. They moved between fleets with me - so I continued to fly with this same group for 7 years.

Firstly - It took almost 2 years to get them online. They started with a lot of groundschool. Their training included a lot of extra Simulator sessions.

I believe Line Training was 50 sectors - I used to get paired with the newly released Cadets. Obviously they needed a little help dealing with new situations. I never had to take control from any of them - in the worst case I had to issue commands to stop a rapidly deteriorating situation.

Some of these Cadets were very talented - I let one lady land with 20 knots of direct crosswind. I couldn't have done a better job than she did.

If you have a training system set up for this then it can certainly be done.

People need to realise that in some countries there is almost no General Aviation - no way for people to build experience on smaller aircraft. It's also logical that countries would like their citizens to fly their aircraft at their Airline.

[co-joe]

I started off working the ramp, got a little flying in and then got laid off at the end of the season. For me instructing was the route that opened the door that led to the right seat of a King Air, and on from there. My one piece of advice is make sure you train with a school that is going to hire you afterwards. This might even mean working the ramp/ desk at that school while taking your rating to secure your place.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Well thanks for not wasting everyone's time (and I mean that) by telling us your intentions, which are to be an airline pilot.

My advice:
FORGET INSTRUCTING. Follow the quickest way that gets you into the cockpit of a ME tubine aircraft.

Good luck mate!