Foreign DEC

[Aspiredtofly]

I want everyone to have a look at this. First they won't consider paying a livable wage to their own people who've spent thousand's of dollars on training for this opportunity. I'm sure these guys have piles of resumes at their desk by low timers. Meanwhile we have regional airlines who are paying 100K in bonuses for FO's in the US. Shame

#pilotsforachange

[Apestogetherstrong]

Word is the new contract is going to be out by Feb and it is going to be a game changer. Management realized that they domt wqnt pilots leaving and to retain them they need to start offering closer to what US is offering. Now its still a rumour so take it with a grain or salt. It will be a game changer either way cuz either people will stay or a lot more who are waiting to see the contract will leave. Staying very hopeful.

[Aspiredtofly]

Word is the new contract is going to be out by Feb and it is going to be a game changer. Management realized that they domt wqnt pilots leaving and to retain them they need to start offering closer to what US is offering. Now its still a rumour so take it with a grain or salt. It will be a game changer either way cuz either people will stay or a lot more who are waiting to see the contract will leave. Staying very hopeful.

Reminder set to february 1st 2023 and then I have to beg for seeing the contract

[SPR]

No, that was somewhat accurate. Many were Sunwing/overseas guys who lost their jobs in the pandemic and came to Flair because they were the only ones hiring at the time. Most of those had every intention of going back to their respective jobs once they were called back. Flair knew what it was and the ones that had 737 time were given a 'short course'.

So no, not demeaning and not why they were in a rush to leave.

And you don't think you could have retained the Sunwing pilots if Flair made it worth their while? Flair couldn't even offer an attractive enough WAWCON for Sunwing pilots to prevent them from going back?! Do you really not see that it wouldn't be inevitable for laid-off pilots to automatically take recalls if Flair made the compensation attractive? Even pilots who were overseas might not have gone back if they were paid and treated well. If the pilots jumped at the first opportunity to leave, that says a lot about Flair, not the pilots.

[flying4dollars]

No, that was somewhat accurate. Many were Sunwing/overseas guys who lost their jobs in the pandemic and came to Flair because they were the only ones hiring at the time. Most of those had every intention of going back to their respective jobs once they were called back. Flair knew what it was and the ones that had 737 time were given a 'short course'.

So no, not demeaning and not why they were in a rush to leave.

And you don't think you could have retained the Sunwing pilots if Flair made it worth their while? Flair couldn't even offer an attractive enough WAWCON for Sunwing pilots to prevent them from going back?! Do you really not see that it wouldn't be inevitable for laid-off pilots to automatically take recalls if Flair made the compensation attractive? Even pilots who were overseas might not have gone back if they were paid and treated well. If the pilots jumped at the first opportunity to leave, that says a lot about Flair, not the pilots.

I am not denying the compensation, nor am I defending it. My rebuttal was simply about the rentals. Of course if the pay was improved it may have helped. But many still would have gone back simply because a lot of them were not sure how long the music would last at Flair. I guess a lot of those expats were still wounded by their pasts from C3, Jetsgo, Royal etc. I flew with them so yes this is first hand knowledge. I knew many who came because it was the only job they could land (no pun intended) and many were still set on returning to their previous jobs be it for seniority (SWG) and tax free dollars (sandbox).

[daedalusx]

No, that was somewhat accurate. Many were Sunwing/overseas guys who lost their jobs in the pandemic and came to Flair because they were the only ones hiring at the time. Most of those had every intention of going back to their respective jobs once they were called back. Flair knew what it was and the ones that had 737 time were given a 'short course'.

So no, not demeaning and not why they were in a rush to leave.

And you don't think you could have retained the Sunwing pilots if Flair made it worth their while? Flair couldn't even offer an attractive enough WAWCON for Sunwing pilots to prevent them from going back?! Do you really not see that it wouldn't be inevitable for laid-off pilots to automatically take recalls if Flair made the compensation attractive? Even pilots who were overseas might not have gone back if they were paid and treated well. If the pilots jumped at the first opportunity to leave, that says a lot about Flair, not the pilots.

I am not denying the compensation, nor am I defending it. My rebuttal was simply about the rentals. Of course if the pay was improved it may have helped. But many still would have gone back simply because a lot of them were not sure how long the music would last at Flair. I guess a lot of those expats were still wounded by their pasts from C3, Jetsgo, Royal etc. I flew with them so yes this is first hand knowledge. I knew many who came because it was the only job they could land (no pun intended) and many were still set on returning to their previous jobs be it for seniority (SWG) and tax free dollars (sandbox).

With the WJ/SWG merge looming, it was a perfect opportunity for Flair to poach all of the high time, experienced Sunwing FOs and jr Capts and offer them DECs especially since if they do end up merging the list purely based on DOH then they’ll be sitting on the right seat for many years, especially the western based guys. The fact that Flair wasn’t able to keep these drivers and especially with how bad the morale is at SWG is quite telling. A true race to the bottom.
Oh well, I’m sure AC will be quite pleased with the amount of experienced pilots that will be in their courses in 2023 regardless of the MOA/flat pay.

[co-joe]

With the WJ/SWG merge looming, it was a perfect opportunity for Flair to poach all of the high time, experienced Sunwing FOs and jr Capts and offer them DECs especially since if they do end up merging the list purely based on DOH then they’ll be sitting on the right seat for many years, especially the western based guys. The fact that Flair wasn’t able to keep these drivers and especially with how bad the morale is at SWG is quite telling. A true race to the bottom.
Oh well, I’m sure AC will be quite pleased with the amount of experienced pilots that will be in their courses in 2023 regardless of the MOA/flat pay.

I think there's still plenty of time for the Sunwing pilots who chose to go back to regret their decision. Around this time next year when all the orange planes start getting painted pink, and they get put on that swoop pay scale....

[co-joe]

...
Air Canada is 3.5 years to upgrade where you'll earn a base salary of about $185k [actually, I think it is higher since you carry years of service and enter as a year 3 captain??] plus pension matching, Nav pay etc. As a Captain, you'll easily clear over $200k without doing stupid amounts of overtime.

Flair is only $114k base for year one Captain [then 120k and 123k and no years of service]. The retirement package is 3.5% so you can expect to get a whole $166 per pay to retire on.


This is a retention problem; not a recruiting problem.

3.5 years to upgrade at AC, but you'll be on reserve 18+ days a month for the next decade.

"What good's a reward if ya ain't around to use it?" - Han Solo

[Hangry]

...
Air Canada is 3.5 years to upgrade where you'll earn a base salary of about $185k [actually, I think it is higher since you carry years of service and enter as a year 3 captain??] plus pension matching, Nav pay etc. As a Captain, you'll easily clear over $200k without doing stupid amounts of overtime.

Flair is only $114k base for year one Captain [then 120k and 123k and no years of service]. The retirement package is 3.5% so you can expect to get a whole $166 per pay to retire on.


This is a retention problem; not a recruiting problem.

3.5 years to upgrade at AC, but you'll be on reserve 18+ days a month for the next decade.

"What good's a reward if ya ain't around to use it?" - Han Solo

That’s just not true on any level. But do go on.

[Arnie Pye]

Word is the new contract is going to be out by Feb and it is going to be a game changer. Management realized that they domt wqnt pilots leaving and to retain them they need to start offering closer to what US is offering. Now its still a rumour so take it with a grain or salt. It will be a game changer either way cuz either people will stay or a lot more who are waiting to see the contract will leave. Staying very hopeful.

Reminder set to february 1st 2023 and then I have to beg for seeing the contract

Apestogetherstrong never said 2023, nor did he say the 1st of February. We will likely have this contract finished before Feb 28, 2030 though so I would set your reminder for then.

If Management suddenly realized that they don't want pilots leaving, what are they doing to prevent this from happening? Honest question.

[Arnie Pye]

Could this not be viewed as bargaining in bad faith?

If the company has such little faith that they will be able to attract and retain pilots with the new contract that they must go abroad; I think someone could argue this is just surface bargaining or bargaining to an impasse.

[Flairpilot]

Tell me you know nothing about negotiations without saying you know nothing about negotiations?

The only question right now is this. Will Flair put enough good faith forward to skip the need for mediation? And that’s really 2 parts, the 2nd part being do they believe strongly enough in the business model to put up the cash…