Air Canada Ultimatum

[westernbird]

Good Day Fellow Forum users,

I have a question to put out into the avcanada universe.

I have been offered a spot in an upcoming Air Canada pit course.

I am currently employed by a private operator in western Canada. I fly a mid size jet for an individual who treats me well. I told the family that I was offered a career job at Air Canada. They told me they would like to negotiate a contract that would convince me to stay with the family. Turning down this job offer would mean never going to big red. ( in my eyes its now or never)

My question for everyone is; What would it take from a private operator to convince you to stay vs the " be all end all" Aircanada. Compensation wise.

Background I am 36 years. I have 6000 hours and a few thousand jet pic. Current Job; work 10-15 days a month. Basic health care. On call most of the month however I always get a weeks notice. Most weekends and holidays off.

I don't have any preference to fly larger aircraft or travel overseas. This decision is geared towards compensation and lifestyle. I have never felt a need to fly heavy metal at a flag carrier.

Taking into account career earnings/pension/lifestyle etc.

Have at it. I am looking forward to hearing different perspectives.

Thanks

BV.

[ZBBYLW]

Air Canada has its warts. But it's been around for 80 years and has no sign of going away.

You could potentially enjoy your current job for another 5-10 years then what? What happens if the owner sells the plane? I don't know how old they are, maybe their kids don't want the plane.

At AC once you're in you're in. You'll move upwards in seniority to the point you can get weekends off, time off for the kids etc.

If you choose to stay, I recommend signing a contract that takes into account the lack of stability and extra risks you take working for a private family.

[negroni]

I agree with the above poster.

Ask the pilots who were at Suncor who thought they had a stable career job.

[Eric Janson]

There's no such thing as a stable job in this business imho.

I don't care who you work for.

Look what happened in 2020 - I know a lot of people that lost their jobs and in some cases their career.

Air Canada was on the brink of Bankruptcy in 2008 - the retired Air Canada Pilots I flew with were worried they would lose their entire pension.

There are no guarantees. Jmho.

[Liftdump]

The plane you fly today may be posted on CONTROLLER by Friday. Take that for what it’s worth,in your decision making. Been there,done this,got the tee shirt. Good luck

[Liftdump]

And in reality the family does not give a S#$& about you,sorry if this sounds harsh.

[CL-Skadoo!]

And in reality AIR CANADA does not give a S#$& about you,sorry if this sounds harsh.

Does the Air Canada CEO call you on your birthday and send gifts to your kids on theirs? Or is it the union that does that? I'm just here representing the other side.

A good corporate job is rare, indeed, but if you find a good one, stick around. The nice thing about corporate is if a flight department folds, and you have a popular type rating paired with a decent reputation, you will not be out of work for long.

I think it comes down to personal tastes, so all any of us can do is sell the pros and cons of both sides. If you want to do the terminal thing, take it on the chin for a bunch of years but aspire to fly a big jet with solid career stability, then it's an easy decision. Myself, being in a similar position as this person, I'd be staying put and enjoying the life. I'm not on call 24-7 and have a decent schedule though, if the schedule stinks, then yes, I would go off to AC.

If they're like me, they've played out the whole "flight department folding scenario" a million times over. We prepare for eventualities in this business.

[averageatbest]

And in reality the family does not give a S#$& about you,sorry if this sounds harsh.

A family is more likely to care about a pilot who they know personally and who they employ to fly them around.

Air Canada (and every other airline) sees you as a tool to fly their assets around. They pay shit pay and do the bare minimum to keep just enough pilots to keep the operations going.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Can you pay your mortgage on 4 years of flat pay ?

[Arnie Pye]

Reframe your question this way: What makes you want to go to AC in the first place? If they have something that your corporate gig doesn't look at including that into your request.

You stated that heavy metal at a scheduled operator isn't the goal. That should help you focus your request on the lifestyle side of things. Look beyond the first few years at AC and consider how your life would be different there and find a way to incorporate those things into your request.

Does AC have better income potential over the life of a career? Ask for a raise today and a bigger annual raise each year following.
Does AC offer better/more vacation days per year (and the ability to fix those dates)? Ask for more vacation days.
Does AC offer a better retirement package? Ask for a higher RRSP contribution from the company.

Good luck.

[cdnavater]

I was once offered a corporate job on a Citation X, when it came down to discussion on schedule, it was a deal breaker.
I was told I would work 10-15 days per month, when I queried for how many days off in a row I could expect, it was 3 guaranteed days off per month the rest I was on call but would still only work 10-15. In my mind, on call is still work and so should it be in yours.
You mentioned that you’re on call most of the month but get a weeks notice, once notified are you now off until or still on call for short notice trips that could come up?
I think people underestimate the on call life, you may feel like it’s ok now but when trying to plan a life around family events that you may end up having to cancel short notice, it will eventually wear thin.
I don’t think you can quantify how much a schedule for the next month ahead of time is worth in salary.
Next, longevity, AC has been around and even in the unlikely event of another bankruptcy, it will still be around.
Would your employer provide you a golden parachute, I mean a CEO style severance package?
Something like if they decide to liquidate your job in the next 10 or ? years, you get a severance package prorated on the length you agree on, something held in trust. This will tell you how serious they are about keeping you.
Again, on call life for the rest of your career, really ask yourself if this will not wear thin later.
You don’t mention what you’re making now but the earning potential at AC long term far outweighs anything else in Canada(speculation), at some point in order for your salary to be enticing where you are, the bean counters for this family will probably suggest chartering is cheaper vs owning, back to the golden parachute.

[daedalusx]

I've had close friends who had a great corporate gigs like that until the owner went bankrupt (one owner went to jail actually, fun story) or sold the plane.

No kidding, AC will suck balls initially and most likely for the next 4 years, but then down the road, you will enjoy decent pay and lifestyle - there's still a fair amount of retirements coming up and there is for sure job stability. I personally loathe airline flying but at least with AC, they will still be there in 20 years, can't say that with most flying jobs around these days.

I would do it at 36. I wouldn't at 50.

[200Above]

Can you pay your mortgage on 4 years of flat pay ?

I paid 3 mortgages while on it. In fact, I'm still on it.

[schnitzel2k3]

Can you pay your mortgage on 4 years of flat pay ?

I paid 3 mortgages while on it. In fact, I'm still on it.

I'm guessing you're renting out property and using the rental income to supplement mortgage payments.

[averageatbest]

Can you pay your mortgage on 4 years of flat pay ?

I paid 3 mortgages while on it. In fact, I'm still on it.

A down payment is upward of two years of flat pay. How do you pay for anything else during that time?

[flyer 1492]

Westernbird,
If you decide to leave for Big Red, let me know, I would like to apply for your position.

Flyer

[negroni]

Can you pay your mortgage on 4 years of flat pay ?

I paid 3 mortgages while on it. In fact, I'm still on it.

A down payment is upward of two years of flat pay. How do you pay for anything else during that time?

Lots of us bought property before going to AC, when we actually made reasonable (but still shit) money. Zero chance I'd qualify for my townhouse on my current pay and at the current rates. Nearly sold during covid furlough, but I made it work. Hopefully the old farts will consider that enough "paying my dues" and "pulling up my bootstraps" so they can see me as an equal now.

[JBI]

First of all, congrats! This is a good problem to have. While I second most of what has been said about the Cons of Corporate Flying and the Pros of Airline (AC) in particular, the question is "what would it take to stay with the current gig?"

The way I see it, based on the limited info one can provide on a public forum, the pros to going to AC are longer term career stability and pay. Perhaps also the travel benefits and, eventually, a slightly better lifestyle (though it sounds like you'd have to commute to YYZ for the foreseeable future).

To offset these risks, I'd ask for:

1- More money now. That's simple - a big chunk of cash to use to pay off debts, invest in property etc. Putting money in investments now, to a certain extent, will help set you up for future earnings. My wife and I worked really hard and saved a bunch and we're mortgage free - it feels really nice, especially with the crazy interest rates.

2- A Golden Parachute - guaranteed by the family, not some business - the truth is Corporate Flight Departments come and go. Make it so if that happens you have a nice pile of cash to land on when they throw you out the door.

3- Lifestyle improvements - Not sure how your vacation or schedule works, and it sounds like they're pretty fair, but there's always room for improvement. Can they give you a certain number of guaranteed days off in a year? Will that help the lifestyle.

The reality is you've never had a better negotiating position. Plus depending on what you ask for, you can tell how serious the "family" is to keeping you.

Wayne Campbell:

I say hurl. If you blow chunks and she comes back, she's yours. If you spew and she bolts, then it was never meant to be.

If you throw out some pretty ambitious asks and they do their best to meet them, then sounds like a good gig. If they balk, go fly for AC.

But hey, it's free advice from a stranger on the internet...

[YC87DRVR]

First of all, congrats! This is a good problem to have. While I second most of what has been said about the Cons of Corporate Flying and the Pros of Airline (AC) in particular, the question is "what would it take to stay with the current gig?"

The way I see it, based on the limited info one can provide on a public forum, the pros to going to AC are longer term career stability and pay. Perhaps also the travel benefits and, eventually, a slightly better lifestyle (though it sounds like you'd have to commute to YYZ for the foreseeable future).

To offset these risks, I'd ask for:

1- More money now. That's simple - a big chunk of cash to use to pay off debts, invest in property etc. Putting money in investments now, to a certain extent, will help set you up for future earnings. My wife and I worked really hard and saved a bunch and we're mortgage free - it feels really nice, especially with the crazy interest rates.

2- A Golden Parachute - guaranteed by the family, not some business - the truth is Corporate Flight Departments come and go. Make it so if that happens you have a nice pile of cash to land on when they throw you out the door.

3- Lifestyle improvements - Not sure how your vacation or schedule works, and it sounds like they're pretty fair, but there's always room for improvement. Can they give you a certain number of guaranteed days off in a year? Will that help the lifestyle.

The reality is you've never had a better negotiating position. Plus depending on what you ask for, you can tell how serious the "family" is to keeping you.

Wayne Campbell:

I say hurl. If you blow chunks and she comes back, she's yours. If you spew and she bolts, then it was never meant to be.

If you throw out some pretty ambitious asks and they do their best to meet them, then sounds like a good gig. If they balk, go fly for AC.

But hey, it's free advice from a stranger on the internet...

Well said

[Curiousflyer]

I think you need to be quite honest with yourself about what your future would be like at AC. You’re 36 years old, there’s at least 1500, possibly 2000 pilots on property at AC that are younger than you. Without growth, you’ll never see widebody Captain and only about 30% Narrowbody Captain.

[altiplano]

35.5 is the average AC new hire age.

[stef]

Ask for a signing bonus up front that you’re confident would grow to the equivalent value of the AC pension at retirement since that’s what you’d be turning your back on.

600k at 5% over 25 years would be about 2mil for example.

[rookiepilot]

Ask for a signing bonus up front that you’re confident would grow to the equivalent value of the AC pension at retirement since that’s what you’d be turning your back on.

600k at 5% over 25 years would be about 2mil for example.

Nothing like modest expectations.

[Pratt X 3]

Piedmont Airlines Offers Limited Time $100,000 Up Front Bonus for Experienced Pilots
https://piedmont-airlines.com/2022/11/p ... ce-pilots/

[schnitzel2k3]

Air Wisconsin is 150k now lol