WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

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eliteair
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WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by eliteair »


This might explain the real reason they pulled their 787 from Toronto, (if this is true):

https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/w ... 53.article

"Canadian airline WestJet looks poised to launch flights between Calgary and Dubai beginning in March 2023, after securing required landing slots at Dubai International airport.

The flights would be the first WestJet routes to the Middle East, and the first to connect the two cities non-stop.

According to slot coordinator Airport Coordination Limited’s (ACL) Dubai International airport summer 2023 initial coordination report, dated 4 November, WestJet has been allocated 186 slots for the 31-week summer travel season which begins on 27 March. It initially requested more than double that number.

WestJet is listed in the report as a “new operator” to Dubai International airport...."

"Further ACL data indicates that WestJet may also begin to operate flights between Calgary and Edinburgh, Scotland for the summer 2023 travel season. "
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Eric Janson
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Eric Janson »

Airlines request slots all the time at airports all over the world. Depending on the airport slots can be worth $$. I've seen an Airline sell London Heathrow slots.

Says nothing about whether flights will actually take place.

Calgary - Dubai is pushing the capabilities of the 787 isn't it?
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Mach1
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Mach1 »

Eric Janson wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:47 am Calgary - Dubai is pushing the capabilities of the 787 isn't it?
Distance between Calgary (Calgary International Airport) and Dubai (Dubai International Airport) is 7134 miles / 11481 kilometers / 6199 nautical miles.

787-8 Dreamliner Range nmi (km) 7,305 nmi (13,530 km)
787-9 Dreamliner Range nmi (km) 7,565 nmi (14,010 km)
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Crewbunk
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Crewbunk »

The high density altitude of YYC is working against ULH operations. Especially, as you would think, during the summer.

A 787-9 can take off 35R at max gross at -10°. Start increasing temps and it drops dramatically. Running the numbers through our performance computer, my back of napkin calculations gives roughly:

If headed to DXB, 300 passengers at -10°, 260 at 0°, 240 at 10°, 215 at 20°, 160 at 30°. (!). This is at 29.92, with no wind. Carry on and baggage, but no cargo.
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averageatbest
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by averageatbest »

Crewbunk wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:57 pm The high density altitude of YYC is working against ULH operations. Especially, as you would think, during the summer.

A 787-9 can take off 35R at max gross at -10°. Start increasing temps and it drops dramatically. Running the numbers through our performance computer, my back of napkin calculations gives roughly:

If headed to DXB, 300 passengers at -10°, 260 at 0°, 240 at 10°, 215 at 20°, 160 at 30°. (!). This is at 29.92, with no wind. Carry on and baggage, but no cargo.
There's one thing that we need to remember about the new WestJet. The airline is no longer an airline... it's a branch of Onex.
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fish4life
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by fish4life »

AC is doing the Heathrow Mumbai 5th degree freedom maybe that’s the same plan for WJ
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averageatbest
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by averageatbest »

fish4life wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:39 pm AC is doing the Heathrow Mumbai 5th degree freedom maybe that’s the same plan for WJ
What benefit would that serve WestJet? I believe that the Dubai slots will remain in the same boat as most of the European slots.
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mmm...bacon
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by mmm...bacon »

Who would fly from YYC to Dubai?
If you want to go to an unaffordable featureless place in the middle of nowhere floating on a lake of oil, then take a trip to Ft. MacMurray - at least they won't stone you to death for taking a sip of alcohol!
And, if you want to transit elsewhere in the world, go west through somewhere civilized such as Tokyo, Singapore, or Bangkok.
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fish4life
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by fish4life »

averageatbest wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 7:19 am
fish4life wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:39 pm AC is doing the Heathrow Mumbai 5th degree freedom maybe that’s the same plan for WJ
What benefit would that serve WestJet? I believe that the Dubai slots will remain in the same boat as most of the European slots.
The benefit being you can fly the route otherwise you won’t have the range to get their. Essentially a tech stop with a crew change and fill back up
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TeePeeCreeper
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by TeePeeCreeper »

mmm...bacon wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:26 am Who would fly from YYC to Dubai?
If you want to go to an unaffordable featureless place in the middle of nowhere floating on a lake of oil, then take a trip to Ft. MacMurray - at least they won't stone you to death for taking a sip of alcohol!
And, if you want to transit elsewhere in the world, go west through somewhere civilized such as Tokyo, Singapore, or Bangkok.
Your post would seem to indicate that you haven’t worked/lived or visited the UAE. Trust me there’s plenty of cheap booze (legal) and there are more Russian prostitues there than there are in Russia itself! (If that’s your thing) Dubai truly is “the Las Vegas” of the Middle East.

TPC
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billhill
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by billhill »

Hear hear I second that :D :D :D
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Mach1
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Mach1 »

mmm...bacon wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:26 am Who would fly from YYC to Dubai?
Emirates Airlines.... The first article is from 2010 when they tried to get direct routes but were denied. The second from 2018. Apparently, they see a market in those routes.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report- ... le4388369/

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/uae-can ... tions-2018
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Eric Janson
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Eric Janson »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:58 am
Eric Janson wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:47 am Calgary - Dubai is pushing the capabilities of the 787 isn't it?
Distance between Calgary (Calgary International Airport) and Dubai (Dubai International Airport) is 7134 miles / 11481 kilometers / 6199 nautical miles.

787-8 Dreamliner Range nmi (km) 7,305 nmi (13,530 km)
787-9 Dreamliner Range nmi (km) 7,565 nmi (14,010 km)
As mentioned there are plenty of other factors that may limit this flight.

Since you can't fly over Russia at present - the flight time/distance will be longer. Approximate routing would look closer to Calgary - Amsterdam - Dubai. Extra fuel = less payload.

Operating out of Dubai in the summer is interesting. I've departed there with surface temp of 48c. With a 4000m runway and low pressure we had a 20,000kg performance penalty. This is for a 4 Engine aircraft which generally has an edge over a twin under these conditions.
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Crewbunk
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Crewbunk »

Russian overflight it certainly a factor. By my best estimation, flight planned distance would be about 6700 nm avoiding Russian airspace.

But, the biggest problem is the high density altitude of YYC.

Granted, I used Air Canada’s performance numbers (I’m using the assumption that the two airlines’ 787-9s are identical with regard to engines/weights). To carry 320 passengers from YYC to DXB, the OAT at Calgary would have to be -14° or colder. Reduce that by about 100 passengers on a 20° summer day and to around half on a hot summer day of 30°!

29.92. No wind. Carry on and checked baggage, no cargo. These are performance limitations, so increasing the licenced MTOW will have no effect.

Westjet needs a 777-200LR. :lol: In Air Canada’s configuration of 300 passengers, 40J, 24 W, 236Y, the beast can fly nonstop to DXB from YYC with an OAT of 30°! (With 22,000 Kgs of additional cargo and the damned thing still wouldn’t even grunt).
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vanislepilot
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by vanislepilot »

mmm...bacon wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:26 am Who would fly from YYC to Dubai?
If you want to go to an unaffordable featureless place in the middle of nowhere floating on a lake of oil, then take a trip to Ft. MacMurray - at least they won't stone you to death for taking a sip of alcohol!
And, if you want to transit elsewhere in the world, go west through somewhere civilized such as Tokyo, Singapore, or Bangkok.
An insane amount of people in my opinion. Think anyone who resides in Alberta from the middle east, India, Africa. This would be a substantial chunk of people. One flight to Dubai then the world is your oyster.
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by vanislepilot »

mmm...bacon wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:26 am Who would fly from YYC to Dubai?
If you want to go to an unaffordable featureless place in the middle of nowhere floating on a lake of oil, then take a trip to Ft. MacMurray - at least they won't stone you to death for taking a sip of alcohol!
And, if you want to transit elsewhere in the world, go west through somewhere civilized such as Tokyo, Singapore, or Bangkok.
An insane amount of people in my opinion. Think anyone who resides in Alberta from the middle east, India, Africa. This would be a substantial chunk of people. One flight to Dubai then the world is your oyster.
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averageatbest
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by averageatbest »

vanislepilot wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:16 pm
mmm...bacon wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:26 am Who would fly from YYC to Dubai?
If you want to go to an unaffordable featureless place in the middle of nowhere floating on a lake of oil, then take a trip to Ft. MacMurray - at least they won't stone you to death for taking a sip of alcohol!
And, if you want to transit elsewhere in the world, go west through somewhere civilized such as Tokyo, Singapore, or Bangkok.
An insane amount of people in my opinion. Think anyone who resides in Alberta from the middle east, India, Africa. This would be a substantial chunk of people. One flight to Dubai then the world is your oyster.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/c ... 57261.html

Knowing the way Onyx works, they probably got the slots just to make sure Air Canada didn't get them. I highly doubt that they will be utilized.
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Mach1 »

Eric Janson wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 7:58 am As mentioned there are plenty of other factors that may limit this flight.

Since you can't fly over Russia at present - the flight time/distance will be longer. Approximate routing would look closer to Calgary - Amsterdam - Dubai. Extra fuel = less payload.

Operating out of Dubai in the summer is interesting. I've departed there with surface temp of 48c. With a 4000m runway and low pressure we had a 20,000kg performance penalty. This is for a 4 Engine aircraft which generally has an edge over a twin under these conditions.
I am expressing no opinion. Just a set of numbers. You are presenting more numbers.
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by Blue42 »

averageatbest wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 2:21 am
vanislepilot wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 9:16 pm
mmm...bacon wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:26 am Who would fly from YYC to Dubai?
If you want to go to an unaffordable featureless place in the middle of nowhere floating on a lake of oil, then take a trip to Ft. MacMurray - at least they won't stone you to death for taking a sip of alcohol!
And, if you want to transit elsewhere in the world, go west through somewhere civilized such as Tokyo, Singapore, or Bangkok.
An insane amount of people in my opinion. Think anyone who resides in Alberta from the middle east, India, Africa. This would be a substantial chunk of people. One flight to Dubai then the world is your oyster.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/c ... 57261.html

Knowing the way Onyx works, they probably got the slots just to make sure Air Canada didn't get them. I highly doubt that they will be utilized.
AC is already maxed out with the number of flights it can operate, slots make no difference
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billhill
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Re: WestJet's New Routes: Calgary - Dubai & Calgary - Edinburgh?

Post by billhill »

Well there is this thing called "hubs". And Dubai is one of the major "hubs" in the world. And judging by the increasingly diverse population in Alberta this would be an excellent opportunity to bypass that huge mess called Pearson and simply fly direct to a major "hub" where you can connect to go anywhere in the world with all kinds of airlines. Or take a few days in the desert to relax and shop. Dubai has a lot of shopping. Yeah it is most definitely not Fort Mac.
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