Just had to give credit when it's due. Talked to a young pilot Friday who was looking for a better JOB. He talked about many things but what surprised me was his intention of making good on his training bond. When most guys just walk out with 3 days notice he was considering his employers needs as well.
For once an honest guy.
A First Pilot wants to make good on a training Bond
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
logicaldisaster
- Rank 0
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:55 pm
Training bonds make me Ill.
They totally avoid the real problem at hand.
Why are my employees leaving?
Well, I'll just take the easy way out and make then sign a training bond.
Did you inform your young friend that these don't hold up in the court of law? Also, did you inform him that this industry is cut throat and I would suggest protecting ones self before throwing money away at a company?
They totally avoid the real problem at hand.
Why are my employees leaving?
Well, I'll just take the easy way out and make then sign a training bond.
Did you inform your young friend that these don't hold up in the court of law? Also, did you inform him that this industry is cut throat and I would suggest protecting ones self before throwing money away at a company?
-
Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
There is a big difference between a person who enters an agreement with his/her employer where they agree to paying back the cost of training pro rated if they find a better job and one who breaks the agreement.
The person who keeps their bond agreement is ethical and trustworthy.
The person who quits and breaks their bond is a liar and untrustworthy.
Not to mention those who break their bonds are the reason that bonds are needed.
Cat
The person who keeps their bond agreement is ethical and trustworthy.
The person who quits and breaks their bond is a liar and untrustworthy.
Not to mention those who break their bonds are the reason that bonds are needed.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
logicaldisaster
- Rank 0
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Thu Jul 14, 2005 3:55 pm
Listen,
We are the ones to blame because we accept it as a norm in our industry nowadays.
Why not address the real problem? Why are employers side stepping the real problems and coming up with this training bond crap to keep employees put.
There is a finite # of jobs out there as well as a finite # of pilots. Soo... if you work hard at creating a good work place environment, maybe you wouldn't need training bonds?
Are we being brain washed into thinking this is for our job secuirty? I think so.
We are the ones to blame because we accept it as a norm in our industry nowadays.
Why not address the real problem? Why are employers side stepping the real problems and coming up with this training bond crap to keep employees put.
There is a finite # of jobs out there as well as a finite # of pilots. Soo... if you work hard at creating a good work place environment, maybe you wouldn't need training bonds?
Are we being brain washed into thinking this is for our job secuirty? I think so.
i agree that training is a cost of doing business, and should not be the piot's responsibility... then i have a look at the word within itself "RESPONSIBLE"
I think that Kid was indeed that - compared to one pilot i know that has had 5 jobs in 3 years, each time leaving with minimal notice for greener pastures. HE is why training bonds exist.
I think that Kid was indeed that - compared to one pilot i know that has had 5 jobs in 3 years, each time leaving with minimal notice for greener pastures. HE is why training bonds exist.
-
Dust Devil
- Rank 11
- Posts: 4027
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 10:55 am
- Location: Riderville
Perhaps the reason employees are quiting is because the owner doesn't own the 737 that all these guys want to fly. Shame on the owner for not providing his guys the type of airplane they want to fly.
//=S=//
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
A parent's only as good as their dumbest kid. If one wins a Nobel Prize but the other gets robbed by a hooker, you failed
-
iwillflyajet
- Rank 2
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:24 am
Wasnt me.... are you based in Calgary...
was it me you were talking to in Calgary.......
I am looking for work in Calgary at the moment. I am prepared to work under a training bond.
At my last job, my last company trained me up without a bond. They wanted me to be there for a minumum of a year and I worked for them for two and a half years. I think I more than doubled their investment and I had a great time working there.
As cat mentioned it depends on the individuals integrity and honesty.
anyone looking for a experienced pilot that will stick around for a number of years. I am looking for multi work and I am in no hurry to make the majors.
I will be in Calgary till the 20th of Nov.
PM me if you want to meet up for a few beers
was it me you were talking to in Calgary.......
I am looking for work in Calgary at the moment. I am prepared to work under a training bond.
At my last job, my last company trained me up without a bond. They wanted me to be there for a minumum of a year and I worked for them for two and a half years. I think I more than doubled their investment and I had a great time working there.
As cat mentioned it depends on the individuals integrity and honesty.
anyone looking for a experienced pilot that will stick around for a number of years. I am looking for multi work and I am in no hurry to make the majors.
I will be in Calgary till the 20th of Nov.
PM me if you want to meet up for a few beers
-
Glen Quagmire
- Rank 4
- Posts: 238
- Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2005 3:32 pm
- Location: YYZ
The employer also has to honor their side of the bond. If the employer is not providing a safe and stable working environment than the employee has every right to find new work and walk away. In that case the employer isn't honoring their end of the contract.
Many employers use the bond tactic to trap pilots, making it harder for them to leave a shady operation. A good sign IMO is to compare the bond to the actual cost of the training, if the company has made the bond well above the cost of training then a red flag should go up. Not sure if this is industry standard but of the quality operations that I know of that require bonds, all have bonds below or at the cost of training while the suspect operations have bonds at twice or three times the cost of the training.
Many employers use the bond tactic to trap pilots, making it harder for them to leave a shady operation. A good sign IMO is to compare the bond to the actual cost of the training, if the company has made the bond well above the cost of training then a red flag should go up. Not sure if this is industry standard but of the quality operations that I know of that require bonds, all have bonds below or at the cost of training while the suspect operations have bonds at twice or three times the cost of the training.
-
iwillflyajet
- Rank 2
- Posts: 61
- Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:24 am
-
godsrcrazy
- Rank 8
- Posts: 861
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:12 pm
I must say I agree with most things that Glen has said with the exception of cost of training.
What is the true cost of training and when does that cost end. Is it just Fuel and air frame time. What about all the controled crash landings while we all learn amongst the other things we bang up. There are few people that can say they didnt slam these things on the runway while they trained. In my time I have witnessed more then 1 aircraft come back from training early and have maintanence crawl all over it. When you get your PPC does that mean you are fully qualified and the company will not endure any more costs associated with a low time pilot while he learns. Do we call this a part of them doing bussiness. I have read many forums here how we are all under payed and its the companies fault. The next time you watch your buddy walk away after 6 months with a PPC in hand to a better job offer or you witness them drive the gear thru the plane. Ask your self if this was the raise i thought i would get i just witnessed leaving. We all like to think there is huge money in owning an airline. If there is then why are so many going belly up and not just the bottom of the barrel ones. This is a tuff market and i am for one glad that I fly the plane and go home at the end of day without worrying if some one is going to cost me my lively hood while they are learning.
Just a week ago there was one poor guy on here asking for advise on how to keep pilots. I must say yes I slammed him. If he is truly running the class act he says he is and people keep leaving him after 1 year. How long do you think it will be before he is faced with having to implement a bond. There is only so long he can take the traing COSTS what ever they maybe before he is forced to make people commit.
This person who wants to pay his bond I say good for you finally some one with true morals. He wants to leave and wants to come good on his comitment. He is not stooping to a low to find saftey infractions like some have suggest on this topic on other forums. As I also said in another forum if people keep pushing and losing their cases in court we will all be forced to sign bonds.
Who ever you are if you are reading this I hope the company you work for shakes your hand and welcomes you back if you ever want to go back. You truly are an upstanding individual.
What is the true cost of training and when does that cost end. Is it just Fuel and air frame time. What about all the controled crash landings while we all learn amongst the other things we bang up. There are few people that can say they didnt slam these things on the runway while they trained. In my time I have witnessed more then 1 aircraft come back from training early and have maintanence crawl all over it. When you get your PPC does that mean you are fully qualified and the company will not endure any more costs associated with a low time pilot while he learns. Do we call this a part of them doing bussiness. I have read many forums here how we are all under payed and its the companies fault. The next time you watch your buddy walk away after 6 months with a PPC in hand to a better job offer or you witness them drive the gear thru the plane. Ask your self if this was the raise i thought i would get i just witnessed leaving. We all like to think there is huge money in owning an airline. If there is then why are so many going belly up and not just the bottom of the barrel ones. This is a tuff market and i am for one glad that I fly the plane and go home at the end of day without worrying if some one is going to cost me my lively hood while they are learning.
Just a week ago there was one poor guy on here asking for advise on how to keep pilots. I must say yes I slammed him. If he is truly running the class act he says he is and people keep leaving him after 1 year. How long do you think it will be before he is faced with having to implement a bond. There is only so long he can take the traing COSTS what ever they maybe before he is forced to make people commit.
This person who wants to pay his bond I say good for you finally some one with true morals. He wants to leave and wants to come good on his comitment. He is not stooping to a low to find saftey infractions like some have suggest on this topic on other forums. As I also said in another forum if people keep pushing and losing their cases in court we will all be forced to sign bonds.
Who ever you are if you are reading this I hope the company you work for shakes your hand and welcomes you back if you ever want to go back. You truly are an upstanding individual.
Has this been happening? Does anybody know any examples, real ones not the "I heard of a buddy's friend..."?As I also said in another forum if people keep pushing and losing their cases in court we will all be forced to sign bonds.
In this day and age, that's just laughable. I don't know where this admirable pilot is leaving, but the majority of owners out there are going to resent him anyways. After all, because of him they now have to find and train a replacement when he promised he'd be staying for X number of years.I hope the company you work for shakes your hand and welcomes you back if you ever want to go back.
*edit for spelling*
-
godsrcrazy
- Rank 8
- Posts: 861
- Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:12 pm
Donald to answer your questions.
Has this been happening? Does anybody know any examples, real ones not the "I heard of a buddy's friend..."?
No I do not know of anyone personelly that has gone to court and lost. I only know of hearsay. I do however know of management in a few companies that are watching a couple of cases that are coming up in court. It is there opinion not mine that if these individuals lose they and others will be implementing bonds as well. Infact the bonds are wrote they are just waiting for others to try the legal system.
In this day and age, that's just laughable. I don't know where this admirable pilot is leaving, but the majority of owners out there are going to resent him anyways. After all, because of him they now have to find and train a replacement when he promised he'd be staying for X number of years.
Yes maybe this is a pipe dream however anyone who has the balls to leave and face up to there comittment rather then try and slime there way out of it like many others would does deserve a hand shake. Not just by management but by all of us. Personelly if I was in the management of the company this guy is thinking of going to I would feel pretty good about what type of person i was hirring someone with morals and ethics rather then someone that will try and hang you to get out of a commitment. Just look around at some of the posts and comments on this topic like if every thing isnt to the letter make there life miserable. Or just dig until you find a saftey infraction and leave for just cause. Trust me when i say i have been in this industry a long time and seen people leave companies for the wildest reasons to get out of a verbal commitment. In may cases they even left companies that treated them great (in my opinion) to go work for some shaddy people or not even have a job to go to. Why because someone offered more money more glory like a jet or they just didnt like living were they were. Not because the people that hired them didnt hold up to there end of the deal.
Has this been happening? Does anybody know any examples, real ones not the "I heard of a buddy's friend..."?
No I do not know of anyone personelly that has gone to court and lost. I only know of hearsay. I do however know of management in a few companies that are watching a couple of cases that are coming up in court. It is there opinion not mine that if these individuals lose they and others will be implementing bonds as well. Infact the bonds are wrote they are just waiting for others to try the legal system.
In this day and age, that's just laughable. I don't know where this admirable pilot is leaving, but the majority of owners out there are going to resent him anyways. After all, because of him they now have to find and train a replacement when he promised he'd be staying for X number of years.
Yes maybe this is a pipe dream however anyone who has the balls to leave and face up to there comittment rather then try and slime there way out of it like many others would does deserve a hand shake. Not just by management but by all of us. Personelly if I was in the management of the company this guy is thinking of going to I would feel pretty good about what type of person i was hirring someone with morals and ethics rather then someone that will try and hang you to get out of a commitment. Just look around at some of the posts and comments on this topic like if every thing isnt to the letter make there life miserable. Or just dig until you find a saftey infraction and leave for just cause. Trust me when i say i have been in this industry a long time and seen people leave companies for the wildest reasons to get out of a verbal commitment. In may cases they even left companies that treated them great (in my opinion) to go work for some shaddy people or not even have a job to go to. Why because someone offered more money more glory like a jet or they just didnt like living were they were. Not because the people that hired them didnt hold up to there end of the deal.
