New Flair Tentative Agreement

[Bacunayagua]

Jeezuz you guys are exhausting. Have any of you actually seen the TA you so disparage so much? I don't think you have. In fact I KNOW you haven't. If you do indeed work for Flair why are you still there if it's so shitty? Settle down and wait for the details or you'll risk looking even more divisive than you are already. Forming an opinion without all the facts is simply idiotic.

I personally have seen it, and it sucks ass. But I do not work for Flair.

Hahahahaha...no you haven't! Especially if, as you claim, you don't work for Flair!

You know what, I'll post it so everyone can see the turd you're voting on.

[GRK2]

Let's see it then.

[GRK2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQFxmAdyKcg

[twa22]

Jeezuz you guys are exhausting. Have any of you actually seen the TA you so disparage so much? I don't think you have. In fact I KNOW you haven't. If you do indeed work for Flair why are you still there if it's so shitty? Settle down and wait for the details or you'll risk looking even more divisive than you are already. Forming an opinion without all the facts is simply idiotic.

Ok, so why don't you enlighten us then as to why it's a good contract... you or anyone else who works for Flair that agrees this is a good contract. All I see is the pay, and FO raise is abysmal... the Captain rate is decent. What else is so good about this new TA? I actually want to know objectively and try to take a neutral stance without bashing, I don't work for Flair, but we all know this contract has a somewhat indirect effect on all the 705s, and hence by extension a trickle down effect for everyone else.

[GRK2]

twa22, ask bacunayagua (sorry if it's not spelled correctly) He says he has a copy and will post it here. I'm done here, it's all too over the top.

Respectfully I do understand what it is you want. It's the same where I work, pulling this industry up isn't easy and will it take time. Hope you find what you want.

[Bacunayagua]

Sorry GRK2, took me a while to find something that could host the size of the file. Ended up having to resort to other means.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MO_wwP ... sp=sharing

I love how they took 2 sick days from you because the government now mandates 3 paid personal leave days, yet they're selling it as a net gain of 1 day LMAO!!!!!

[GRK2]

So you posted a powerpoint presentation and call that the full TA? I'll give you credit for doing the work, but what's missing is almost all the rest. It's a "sound byte" and only tells a small part of the story. Flair pilots won't be asked to vote on a Powerpoint presentation, no airline union would ever be expected to do so. Your claim of having seen the final TA falls little short, and your comments are moot as you don't have the whole story. Sorry buddy, school boy mistake.

[Bacunayagua]

These are the key changes that will impact the pilots the most. Anything not included in here is because it is status quo from the last contract. So essentially a turd on top of a turd.

Feel free to post all these other magical things that make the contract so much better that aren't included in the presentation. But let me guess, you'll find a reason not to post it.

[cdnavater]

These are the key changes that will impact the pilots the most. Anything not included in here is because it is status quo from the last contract. So essentially a turd on top of a turd.

Feel free to post all these other magical things that make the contract so much better that aren't included in the presentation. But let me guess, you'll find a reason not to post it.

GRK2,
Respectfully, if the power point is what was presented to the pilot group, it’s the sales job and highlighted the good things, if it’s not mentioned, there is usually a reason.
Personally have not seen it but from the sounds of what is there, it’s a concessional deal for the FOs, you don’t work more to get more money and call it a raise, that’s ludicrous.

[rudder]

So you posted a powerpoint presentation and call that the full TA? I'll give you credit for doing the work, but what's missing is almost all the rest. It's a "sound byte" and only tells a small part of the story. Flair pilots won't be asked to vote on a Powerpoint presentation, no airline union would ever be expected to do so. Your claim of having seen the final TA falls little short, and your comments are moot as you don't have the whole story. Sorry buddy, school boy mistake.

The koolaid must be strong.

The PowerPoint tells a pretty damning story. If one assumes that any section not modified by the PowerPoint is status quo (FLAIR CBA is readily accessible on line), then what you have is an overall pilot contract package (WAWCON plus benefits including pension) that sits generally near the bottom for peer pilot groups with a contract.

I am actually marginally embarrassed that it will have an ALPA logo on it.

In any case, it is to the Flair pilots to make their own decision. Get the facts. Ask good questions. Do not allow for any ambiguity. Good luck.

[pirep]

As much as I don't agree with the low pilot payscale you have to consider that,
Flair is a start up, they don't have too much money.
Can't compare Canada, population 38m to the USA, population 340m. Way different market.

[twa22]

twa22, ask bacunayagua (sorry if it's not spelled correctly) He says he has a copy and will post it here. I'm done here, it's all too over the top.

Respectfully I do understand what it is you want. It's the same where I work, pulling this industry up isn't easy and will it take time. Hope you find what you want.

So GRK, you've had a few pilots here who've been around the game much, much longer then I have, and they concur that based on information available, this is a relatively weak contract by the sounds of it.... So I ask you again, can you provide any of us with details as to what makes this a good contract in 2023? I say 2023 because this year is almost over.

Things don't happen overnight but this has been over a year in the making, so how much time does it take for a decent contract to show up?

[twa22]

As much as I don't agree with the low pilot payscale you have to consider that,
Flair is a start up, they don't have too much money.
Can't compare Canada, population 38m to the USA, population 340m. Way different market.

I have heard this from so many pilots... So what? I don't think anyone is expecting US wages, but we are still severely underpaid as things currently sit today. As many have mentioned, 89k starting FO wage would be more appropriate, and that is still FAR LOWER then a US regional, nevermind legacy carriers, and we haven't even factored in currency conversion

[Arnie Pye]

As much as I don't agree with the low pilot payscale you have to consider that,
Flair is a start up, they don't have too much money.
Can't compare Canada, population 38m to the USA, population 340m. Way different market.

Compare Canada to Australia then. Roughly the same landmass. 10M smaller population base. I think you'll find their salaries well above Canadian wages.

Jeezuz you guys are exhausting. Have any of you actually seen the TA you so disparage so much? I don't think you have. In fact I KNOW you haven't. If you do indeed work for Flair why are you still there if it's so shitty? Settle down and wait for the details or you'll risk looking even more divisive than you are already. Forming an opinion without all the facts is simply idiotic.

I personally have seen it, and it sucks ass. But I do not work for Flair.

No one has seen it. What you have seen is 15 powerpoint slides that attempt to summarize a 50 page document.

With the increase of MMG to 85 hrs, how many positions are eliminated?

And how many captain spots are subsequently reduced?

What effect does that have on progression?

A little rough math: Everyone can do 10% more flying. Therefore, 10% less pilots required.

If the original plan was for 700 pilots, then that's 70 less pilots and probably 40 less Captains required.

[digits_]

Sorry GRK2, took me a while to find something that could host the size of the file. Ended up having to resort to other means.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MO_wwP ... sp=sharing

I love how they took 2 sick days from you because the government now mandates 3 paid personal leave days, yet they're selling it as a net gain of 1 day LMAO!!!!!

Nice to see that the inflation will be back to under 2% in 2024. FOs are apparently also unaffected by inflation

[Bacunayagua]

As much as I don't agree with the low pilot payscale you have to consider that,
Flair is a start up, they don't have too much money.
Can't compare Canada, population 38m to the USA, population 340m. Way different market.

Compare Canada to Australia then. Roughly the same landmass. 10M smaller population base. I think you'll find their salaries well above Canadian wages.

Jeezuz you guys are exhausting. Have any of you actually seen the TA you so disparage so much? I don't think you have. In fact I KNOW you haven't. If you do indeed work for Flair why are you still there if it's so shitty? Settle down and wait for the details or you'll risk looking even more divisive than you are already. Forming an opinion without all the facts is simply idiotic.

I personally have seen it, and it sucks ass. But I do not work for Flair.

No one has seen it. What you have seen is 15 powerpoint slides that attempt to summarize a 50 page document.

With the increase of MMG to 85 hrs, how many positions are eliminated?

And how many captain spots are subsequently reduced?

What effect does that have on progression?

A little rough math: Everyone can do 10% more flying. Therefore, 10% less pilots required.

If the original plan was for 700 pilots, then that's 70 less pilots and probably 40 less Captains required.

I'm very well aware this is a summation of the whole contract. But we both know any sort of improvement that happened would be part of this presentation. I've gone through an ALPA presentation after a new contract before, and said presentation essentially has all the new positive aspects of the TA. Anything not mentioned is either because it is status quo, or a concession they're hoping you don't notice.

If there are so many other positive aspects to the new contract as GRK2 claims, and maybe yourself? Then we both know they would have also been included in this presentation.

But I'm happy to be proven wrong. Please show us what other notable improvements were left out of this presentation.

[Bacunayagua]

twa22, ask bacunayagua (sorry if it's not spelled correctly) He says he has a copy and will post it here. I'm done here, it's all too over the top.

Respectfully I do understand what it is you want. It's the same where I work, pulling this industry up isn't easy and will it take time. Hope you find what you want.

So GRK, you've had a few pilots here who've been around the game much, much longer then I have, and they concur that based on information available, this is a relatively weak contract by the sounds of it.... So I ask you again, can you provide any of us with details as to what makes this a good contract in 2023? I say 2023 because this year is almost over.

Things don't happen overnight but this has been over a year in the making, so how much time does it take for a decent contract to show up?

He won't show you anything because there isn't anything to show. We all know everything worth talking about is in that presentation.

[Apestogetherstrong]

GRK2 you have made the most useless argument one can think of. You say that there is something in the full TA which is better and that the powerpoint presentation isnt the full thing. You must know that pilots are not monkeys. We are professionals and its high time we should be paid right. Bump the salary up to $89k and see the long term benefits and become the true industry leader in Canada. You guys have the money. If you dont you will lose more FO’s and overall lose more money. Now is the time to fix it and be number one in Canada. Also the good thing is pilots across Canada are starting to unite and this will bring huge gains for pilots so its up to you guys. Either be with the pilots or become the next “Sunwing”(referencing the current situation)

[pacman007]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

[co-joe]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

I don't have a problem with either of those two things at present. Did you think a new ULCC model was going to produce the highest paid pilots in Canada overnight? This is a step in the right direction but there's still more work to do.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

I don't have a problem with either of those two things at present. Did you think a new ULCC model was going to produce the highest paid pilots in Canada overnight? This is a step in the right direction but there's still more work to do.

At least you acknowledge that theres still more work to be done. To start with lets make the FO salary to $89k. Just 16000 more. You do that and it fixes the problem. Now that will be a win win situation

[thepoors]

Honestly what would happen if you vote it down? You need to see the companies second offer then take a hard look at the details.

You know lynx will beat you by 1% and you will still be way behind AC and WestJet. You will still be the lowest paid and hardest worked in Canada .

I don't have a problem with either of those two things at present. Did you think a new ULCC model was going to produce the highest paid pilots in Canada overnight? This is a step in the right direction but there's still more work to do.

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

[throwawaycorporate]

Every negotiated contract directly affects every pilot in the industry. I feel this contract misses the mark and will create overworked pilots and hostility between CA and FO at the least. To say "it doesn't matter because you'll be captain in 12 months" is not valid as growth will eventually stop. I think it would be wise to vote NO and push for more from the company:

• FO wages increase same % as CA

• All wages indexed to the CPI (the 2.5% listed in the pay scales is essentially a ~4% pay cut per year meaning at the end of the 3 years each pilot will be making ~12% less in real terms if inflation remains inflated)

• Me too clause similar to Delta's that ensures F50 pilots get 1% more than any contract ratified by Swoop/Lynx/Canada Jetlines/other competitors?

• Remain at 80MMG with a lower cap on scheduling block. (Delta negotiated 34% + improvements in work/life balance). Not everyone wants to work 10% more each month.

In Ontario, education workers walked off the job for 2 days despite a "back to work" mandate and the threat of hefty fines. The precedent has been set again that "back to work" mandates are against labour's charter rights. Many US and international pilot groups recently have shown intent to strike. And it's been effective.

Some raises in the US as a %: Delta 34%, Republic 54-94%, Alaska 23%, >100% at Mesa

American Airlines pilots (already industry leading pay) turned down 19%, Air Canada pilots voted overwhelmingly NO to the LOA. King Air pilots with a fresh ATPL are making 140K + to work 14/14 schedules. It is clear where compensation is trending in this industry. If Spirit can pay their FO's $148USD and their Captains $277USD, then all of our low cost carriers can afford to pay $148CAD and $277CAD and still get a 30% discount on global market rate. Canadian pilots have the ability to capture these transformative gains as well, we just need to stop making excuses as to why it won't happen here, and focus on making it happen here.

I can't think of a single pilot who won't benefit from a NO.

[co-joe]

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

No, it's not all about money, and your perception of how hard I work means nothing to me. I'm not here to prove myself to you.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

No, it's not all about money, and your perception of how hard I work means nothing to me. I'm not here to prove myself to you.

If you are part of the management then you really dont need to prove yourself. However if you are a pilot YOU are the reason we have shitty conditions in Canada for pilots. YOU are the reason for low wages. YOU are the reason pilots bring each other down! We need to change our thinking. We need to start respecting OURSELVES!!!