TA…HERE IT IS AND IT SUCKS

[flyinhigh]

Big old @#$! you to FOs.

How is being the highest paid FOs in Canada for 2 years and then upgrading, a big F U?

Someone fell for the carrot. Ask the Jazz pilots how signing a 17 year deal for stability was a great move.

[C-GGGQ]

I don't know about all the FOs here but I know that 71k is not what you end up earning with the extras. (GDO buy outs, OverTime, Work into GDOs, 3% Matching with no probation time) My first year pay ended up at approximately 100k and that wasn't even trying to pick up GDO's, only accepting them when called. I live an awesome lifestyle being home pretty much every night with my family barring training or the odd IROP. If you are here to work you can live quite comfortably, if you want to work the bare minimum then sure you will get paid less. (but still more than all the other airlines)

I am able to book and go on mini vacations through out the year without using my vacation days. We have jump-seat agreements with AC, AirTransat, United and well maybe WJ again in the future, and only pay 70$ to go to travel the world is a great benefit. They are also adding a commuting policy to alleviate stress on those who choose to commute.

Overall I would hope most people here who are FOs want to further themselves and will be looking at an upgrade in the next 0.5-3 years max. Dont loose sight of this, that means your salary will more than double and you will be getting bigger jet PIC time which you could take with you anywhere in the world. (I look at this as an insurance policy if things went tits up around here)

Let's not forget the expansion plans, things are going to be happening quickly around here and 3 years will come and go in no time and we will be right back at the bargaining table again. The ways things are going we will most likely be able to ask for more and receive it then.

In the end people, vote the way you honestly feel about this contract it is a democracy. Question things and don't just believe what you "hear", follow it up with the people who negotiated the contract and with the contract it self. Get the Facts, hearsay is very dangerous.

Personally I agree that the FOs Salary should have gone up more, definitely at year 2, but the opportunity to upgrade and make 150K in less than a years time, far out weighs this in my opinion.

Working more doesn’t mean you’re paid more. It just means you worked more. Your salary is 67k. The fact that you pulled it up to 100 with OT etc. is irrelevant because it’s just working more than your contracted days/ everyone at every other company could also do that and claim their wage to be higher.

[C-GGGQ]

How is being the highest paid FOs in Canada for 2 years and then upgrading, a big F U?

Chrono Jet starts their 737 fo’s at $80k… just sayin.

Who? Oh the cargo charter company that only flies in Quebec? What's the rest of their pay scale like? PCC says they only get 8 GDOs a month. When do they open a yyz, yow, ykf, yyc, yeg, yvr, and yxx bases again?

Ywg, yhu, yqb bases, cargo and pax. Yes charter, but thats kinda the point. They’re paying fo’s better than all these other airlines, they’re paying 703 year 1 pc12 captains better than 3rd year jazz captains. No travel benefits which is kind of a bummer. I’m not sure how many gdo’s the 737 guys are getting. We’re getting 13 on the 703/704 side.

[Joeschumer]

This is a step in the right direction. What did you expect? 50% wage increases? Canadian pilots are shockingly divided, misinformed and generally ignorant. The US far more advanced in pretty much every way - its not worth comparing. When is the last time a company dished out a 23-25% pay raise up here? When you add in the retention program there is quite a bit of money on the table. The upgrades for FOs are fast and furious and some very new and relatively inexperienced pilots will get a quick upgrade on a new fleet of 737s. And by the way, its effectively a new company gaining traction in the market and operating on a low cost model. But sadly its all about the toxicity in Canada and its what we do. Instead of pushing each other up ( like in the US ) we pull each other down. Its the main reason the wages and conditions have been so suppressed for so long. Flame away and vote it down at your peril...

I think you are confused maybe in a trance looking at $ increases but the concessions of this contract far outweigh the benefits, the FOs get the worst of the deal, the CAs barely come out positive and who benefits? Management! Because management knows pilots like you will look at shiny dollar signs and sign their soul away in the details. Absolute shame that you are saying this in a time where pilots have the greatest leverage possibly in Canadian aviation. Retention program? HA good joke. If the FO scale wasn’t important why didn’t it get bumped higher! If there are so many upgrade slots and no FO will be an FO for long then bump up the pay because nobody will be there anyways. So what’s the difference?

[fish4life]

Does flair have any trip and duty rigs ? Those are huge for QOL ensuring that you don’t work your bag off one pairing only to barely fly the next one and sit around for free.

[Calinrobandfistyou]

Just out of curiosity, what are the commuting policy details?

[Attila]

I'll add something to keep in mind here is that we can't look to the past for guidance on how much wages should increase. First off, we have been grossly underpaid compared to other developed countries for years. By that alone they should be raised significantly. But throw in the rapid rise in inflation. That has always been under reported. Rent keeps skyrocketing. I see the bidding wars in ON and I know they're happening elsewhere it's scary. We are also entering a period of higher structural inflation as countries move away from globalization. Millions of new people coming in? The era of cheap labor is over. This Canadian can do attitude and putting up with the status quo is adorable but it really is time we start uniting more and stop being taken advantage of. Factor in the layoffs and instability, living in or near major cities as many of our bases are there. I won't even Google how much rent has gone up in the past few years, it's insane. So forget about the old 10%-20% increases in pay. Inflation has gone up higher than that and will likely continue to do so. I don't know about you but I'm tired of living at a loss and struggling financially. Been at this a long time. I hope we stand united on this, for Capts to support FOs and vice versa. And refuse to put up with race to the bottom conditions like Flair is doing. The only way to get it is to fight. We're some of the best pilots in the world, it's aboot time we start getting paid like it.

[co-joe]

I did some math for a 10 year comparison in wage and company match for WJ and Flair.

I assumed a Flair FO upgrades after 3 full years and that the WJ FO upgrades after 7 full years.

...

There's your mistake right there. WS upgrades are at 10 years not 7, and for the YYC base 15 years, so for me 5 extra years of $1000/ month commuting costs to the centre of the universe.

[Apestogetherstrong]

I did some math for a 10 year comparison in wage and company match for WJ and Flair.

I assumed a Flair FO upgrades after 3 full years and that the WJ FO upgrades after 7 full years.

...

There's your mistake right there. WS upgrades are at 10 years not 7, and for the YYC base 15 years, so for me 5 extra years of $1000/ month commuting costs to the centre of the universe.

Westjet gives YOS. They only work 9 days on average. 20% matching means way more money. If A year 3 FO works the same amount of days they make a lot more money. Better career progression. Besides when yhey upgrqde at year 7 they start at year 7 Captain pay. Stop defending a POOR TA. If you can make commanders salary jump from 114k to 150k you can certainly make FO salary 67k to 89k. 73k is a big FU to all the FO’s at Flair. Some dont want the upgrade.

[Airbrake]

I did some math for a 10 year comparison in wage and company match for WJ and Flair.

I assumed a Flair FO upgrades after 3 full years and that the WJ FO upgrades after 7 full years.

...

There's your mistake right there. WS upgrades are at 10 years not 7, and for the YYC base 15 years, so for me 5 extra years of $1000/ month commuting costs to the centre of the universe.

I was only providing a snapshot in time for reference.
I have no way of predicting how upgrade times may go in the future.
I also said this.

“Shorter upgrade at Flair than 3 years and longer at WJ then 7 years make the benefit lean towards Flair. And then whatever combination you can creat after that will make changes.”

I wont lose any sleep if someone leaves WJ for anywhere else, they will make the choice they feel is best for them.
I believe that the more that leave right now the more leverage the WJ pilots have for the negotiations.

[thepoors]

Anyone that votes yes to this steaming pile has no respect for themselves or the profession.

I'm so tired of hearing "but it's better than what we had" "this is the best we're going to get" "we're a ulcc we can't expect more"

1) What you had was absolute garbage to begin with. And on the FO side it's debatable whether it's an improvement at all.
2) It's a classic management bait and switch that will look even worse when the competition renegotiate and you're stuck with this.
3) You are wasting an amazing opportunity to actually push the whole industry to a new standard and bring Canadian pilots into the realm of fair compensation - somewhere we haven't been in decades.

And for christssake stop calling it the best starting FO pay in Canada. Because that's also a lie: Cargojet pays 86k and Morningstar 89k to start. Be better.

[swimming]

.

[thepoors]

Current CJ year 1 FO is $75,770

My mistake, that's still more than "Canada's highest starting FO pay" of 73k

[Bacunayagua]

This guy co-joe is really taking "highest paid FO" to the bank. Did you bother to take a look at any other company's pay for more than the first year? Congratulations, you're marginally better than the passenger airlines (because you're still behind the cargo guys) for the first 12 months. You then fall right out of that "Highest paid FO" podium very quickly. Transat for example, pulls slightly ahead on year 2 and leaves you in the dust year 3. Thats not to speak of all the other benefits like pension where the pilot can pay up to 5% of their salary and the company will add another 8% to it for a total of 13%. Not even the best in the industry as WJ and AC have better plans, but this guy is bragging about 3% matching lol.

But what am I saying. None of that matters since you're upgrading to Cpt in no time.

[Vanguard]

VOTE NO CANADIAN PILOTS. WAKE UP!!

A25503CC-F558-4E69-974E-9EFCD2DB8901.jpeg (784.97 KiB) Viewed 4510 times

[tryingtohide]

When is the vote?

[co-joe]

This guy co-joe is really taking "highest paid FO" to the bank. Did you bother to take a look at any other company's pay for more than the first year? Congratulations, you're marginally better than the passenger airlines (because you're still behind the cargo guys) for the first 12 months. You then fall right out of that "Highest paid FO" podium very quickly. Transat for example, pulls slightly ahead on year 2 and leaves you in the dust year 3. Thats not to speak of all the other benefits like pension where the pilot can pay up to 5% of their salary and the company will add another 8% to it for a total of 13%. Not even the best in the industry as WJ and AC have better plans, but this guy is bragging about 3% matching lol.

But what am I saying. None of that matters since you're upgrading to Cpt in no time.

Transat is 1.78 Billion in debt, yes lets follow their lead. And yes that's right, anything beyond year 2 FO pay at Flair is a moot point because you move to year 1 Captain pay at that point.

Of course WS and AC have better benefits, they have proven track records of profitability for decades. This is a first step, not the solution to all the world's problems.

[Bacunayagua]

This guy co-joe is really taking "highest paid FO" to the bank. Did you bother to take a look at any other company's pay for more than the first year? Congratulations, you're marginally better than the passenger airlines (because you're still behind the cargo guys) for the first 12 months. You then fall right out of that "Highest paid FO" podium very quickly. Transat for example, pulls slightly ahead on year 2 and leaves you in the dust year 3. Thats not to speak of all the other benefits like pension where the pilot can pay up to 5% of their salary and the company will add another 8% to it for a total of 13%. Not even the best in the industry as WJ and AC have better plans, but this guy is bragging about 3% matching lol.

But what am I saying. None of that matters since you're upgrading to Cpt in no time.

Transat is 1.78 Billion in debt, yes lets follow their lead. And yes that's right, anything beyond year 2 FO pay at Flair is a moot point because you move to year 1 Captain pay at that point.

Of course WS and AC have better benefits, they have proven track records of profitability for decades. This is a first step, not the solution to all the world's problems.

Hahahhaha, this guy is just comical. Yeah I guess Flair isn't in debt at all with all those new planes and $39.99 fares. I guess its good for you mental health that Flair is a private company and doesn't have to disclose its debts, and that 777 partners is in a whole other country.

Yeah I guess it must be a moot point since everyone at Flair will be a Cpt and there won't be any FO's. I'm sure all those 2000-2500 hour hires that came from king airs will be upgrading in 12 months.

[strengthinumbers]

Thought this was really well done, and an example of how/why the pilot groups stand together down south.

Hoping the link works.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cl4WtqOA ... MyMTA2M2Y=

[Bacunayagua]

It's a moot point. They honestly believe this crap of "new company", "ULCC can't pay that much", " First contract in the right direction". You could show them what Avelo, a new ULCC in the states pays their pilots and they''l change the conversation to the US being a different market altogether. Do yourselves, the industry and everyone else coming up behind you a favour and turn this shit down.

[Gameon]

Stop comparing to the US. It makes ZERO difference to an arbitrator. Is it interesting and something to strive towards? of course. Poor Canada is a laggard in just about every business and at every level of pay and compensation. Doctors, Lawyers, Same. Welcome to socialist Canada.

It IS a step in the right direction and only a 3 year deal. As for FOs, they have very few senior FOs and that means more than 3 years. Its virtually a brand new company post covid. The time to command is about the quickest in the business right now. So you're a new FO with 2000-3000K hrs and get to fly a brand new 737. Make roughly 75K and likely get to 100K with some extra work. Upgrade in a short amount of time. Live in your base and home pretty much every night with the vast majority of flying during the day. Whats the problem again? Haters gonna hate.
Be happy.

[Transition9er2]

I look at that video and I can’t help but see A LOT of similarities with the US carriers us when it comes to being overworked and constantly getting called on my days off when I should be resting and spending time with my family.

This bloody country.

We fly the same planes, we fly to the same destinations, we share their pain and struggles as pilots and yet some refuse to try and make it better.

Lame

[PilotZum]

Hey guys, Watch out!

This is our opportunity to do a major overhaul in this industry. We have basically every contract coming up for negotiations in the next year or two. Let's demand better! We can be at the US level. Don't accept to fly for peanuts in this insanely expensive country.

Value your profession.

VOTE NO!

[DanWEC]

The AC guys put the wheels in motion by binning that MOA. The last poster is right, every airline is due for renewal in the next few years. Follow the AC example, and soon enough we'll all be enjoying better conditions instead of being embarrassed by them. We're in higher and higher demand every year, due in no small part by historical low wages driving less intake to the field. This hole has been dug for years and it's pretty deep. Now they're stuck with an impossible labour shortage. The exploitation is done. We all have to do our part now to turn the ship.

[Airbrake]

Hopefully we will hear Canadian CEO’s saying the same.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-06/

WASHINGTON, Dec 6 (Reuters) - United Airlines (UAL.O) Chief Executive Scott Kirby said a tentative contract agreement between rival Delta Air Lines (DAL.N) and its pilots union would set an industry pattern.

"It's a rich contract but I think the really good news is it means we'll all get deals done essentially on the same terms and can move forward," Kirby told Reuters on the sidelines of an event in Washington late Monday. Delta struck a tentative deal Friday to give pilots a 34% cumulative pay increase in a new four-year contract.

Kirby says the Delta agreement will push pilot wages up across carriers and be passed onto consumers in the form of higher airplane ticket prices.

"The biggest news for an investor perspective is cost convergence in the industry means that what is different now is all the low cost carriers are going to have come up to these much higher pay rates," Kirby said. "This is going to wind up like oil prices -- it's going to be a pass through."

Kirby said demand is still strong for airplane tickets, which he noted are cheaper today than over the last 15 years.

"Prices are still in historical terms 40-50% lower in real terms," Kirby said. "They are going to go up but it's still going to be the best value of your travel," he said, comparing flights to hikes in hotels, rental cars and theme park tickets.

Delta's contract offer also includes a lump-sum one-time payment, reduced health insurance premiums, and improvements in holiday pay, vacation, company contributions to 401(k) and work rules.

Its union estimates the proposed deal represents more than $7.2 billion of cumulative value increases over the next four years.

American Airlines (AAL.O) and United have promised "industry-leading" contracts to their pilots.

Last month, American pilots rejected a proposed 19% pay hike over two years that would have cost the Texas-based carrier about $2 billion. Similarly, United pilots turned down an offer that included more than 14.5% cumulative wage increases and enhanced overtime and training pay.