New Flair Tentative Agreement

[Anonymouse]

Sorry??!!... You don't have a problem being the lowest paid and hardest worked? Then why don't you volunteer and donate your salary back to the company? What's the point?

The more you talk, the more credibility you lose buddy. Just stop, it's embarrassing. We've had enough of these degrading attitudes to the profession for far too long.

No, it's not all about money, and your perception of how hard I work means nothing to me. I'm not here to prove myself to you.

If you are part of the management then you really dont need to prove yourself. However if you are a pilot YOU are the reason we have shitty conditions in Canada for pilots. YOU are the reason for low wages. YOU are the reason pilots bring each other down! We need to change our thinking. We need to start respecting OURSELVES!!!

It's so important that evert new pilot understands this. Every pilot who agrees to work for less than their worth devalues the entire pilot group. This isn't about flair, its not about one single contract, it's about raising wages at every airline in Canada. The only reason flair is in the spotlight here is that their TA came first so it's the one that's going to influence Westjet and AC's. Accepting unacceptable wages will affect every pilot in Canada.

[daedalusx]

That's actually a bit disappointing T&E considering the current climate. I agree with throwawaycorporate, when the music stops, you'll be sitting on the right seat on that wage maybe for a long time. Flair expansion plan is quite ambitious and we're still on a verge of a pretty big downturn, so the whole 1 year to upgrade thing might not still be always there down the road.

The fact that Flair would also rather hire foreigners than raise the wages here is also worrisome. You're not going to attract that much people with these conditions except a few DECs from SWG, Swoop, etc

Capts voting Yes on this also doesn't show much solidarity and will created a divided pilot group down the road ... as we've seen with the Jazz A/B scale thing.

Quite surprised that this is the best that the ALPA negos committee managed to get, to be honest. Was expecting way more, especially on the FO side.

Well, best of luck guys.

[vrefplus5]

Yeah…… the TA will pass. Ironic that posters here were, up to recent history, berating and belittling the pilots for working there and the ugly blight the green disrupters presented to the industry. Now, they’re pleading with the Flair group to be the shining beacon of hope and the champion for change. They want a new airline to do that! On their first agreement!! Laughable. Yeah….the TA will pass, and in a couple really short years when negots reopen there & the bigger guys have negotiated hopefully better WAWCONs, the Flair group will ride on gains available then. Subject of course to economy/world events. At that time, both CA/FO groups will be way better off. Very strategic move. I suspect the “NO” vote champions, work for a competitor, because it’s impossible there is in-house ignorance of the blatant risks associated with voting a decent first TA down. Would demonstrate a weak tactical move. Potential arbitration, possible clawbacks of the gains, etc. That’s a no-confidence fact for anyone familiar with failed contract negots. Let the established carriers be the champion for change when their talks open. I hope all the carriers realize decent gains, but the little guy shouldn’t be saddled with that expectation right from the gate. And btw, from what I’ve seen posted here in the charts, with the possible exception of the FO side, a 10yr CA salary of $208K (guaranteed!!) appears to be a positive change in the right direction. Anyways, yeah…..the TA will pass!

[fish4life]

One big problem isn’t even the pay it’s going to be the high blocking windows/ or trigger / mmg. I’d be shocked if WJ/ AC pilots making 80 hours fly more than 60 in the average month. This adds up and will be exhausting when you need to actually fly 85-90 hours a month every month at Flair.

[Transition9er2]

Vote No

[pacman007]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-09/

I’ll just leave this here to digest.

[throwawaycorporate]

Yeah…… the TA will pass. Ironic that posters here were, up to recent history, berating and belittling the pilots for working there and the ugly blight the green disrupters presented to the industry. Now, they’re pleading with the Flair group to be the shining beacon of hope and the champion for change. They want a new airline to do that! On their first agreement!! Laughable. Yeah….the TA will pass, and in a couple really short years when negots reopen there & the bigger guys have negotiated hopefully better WAWCONs, the Flair group will ride on gains available then. Subject of course to economy/world events. At that time, both CA/FO groups will be way better off. Very strategic move. I suspect the “NO” vote champions, work for a competitor, because it’s impossible there is in-house ignorance of the blatant risks associated with voting a decent first TA down. Would demonstrate a weak tactical move. Potential arbitration, possible clawbacks of the gains, etc. That’s a no-confidence fact for anyone familiar with failed contract negots. Let the established carriers be the champion for change when their talks open. I hope all the carriers realize decent gains, but the little guy shouldn’t be saddled with that expectation right from the gate. And btw, from what I’ve seen posted here in the charts, with the possible exception of the FO side, a 10yr CA salary of $208K (guaranteed!!) appears to be a positive change in the right direction. Anyways, yeah…..the TA will pass!

The TA may very well pass.

That being said, I highly doubt an arbitrator will look at what is happening globally, or even compare the F50 to current competitors and take away all the offered gains. Even with the gains on the captain side, it’s below AC/WS 737 rates.

I think if voted no, the company would come back with a revised offer where the only change is FO pay also up 23%, but starting year 2. That’s a more fair contract, and it would put flair in a much stronger position to capture gains in 2 years. If not, I could see an arbitrator forcing stronger language towards inflation. Protection.

Regardless of what happens, the fear of voting no, or arbitration resembles behaviour of someone in an abusive relationship scared of being punished by their abuser.

[strengthinumbers]

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-09/

I’ll just leave this here to digest.

The deal includes “zero concessions” by the pilot group.

Folks South of the border are accelerating and improving their industry time and time again, airline by airline.

Can we do the same here in Canada or will we continue to just be thankful for the crumbs we’re given like battered wife syndrome?!

[CaptainHaddock]

Yeah…… the TA will pass. Ironic that posters here were, up to recent history, berating and belittling the pilots for working there and the ugly blight the green disrupters presented to the industry. Now, they’re pleading with the Flair group to be the shining beacon of hope and the champion for change. They want a new airline to do that! On their first agreement!! Laughable. Yeah….the TA will pass, and in a couple really short years when negots reopen there & the bigger guys have negotiated hopefully better WAWCONs, the Flair group will ride on gains available then. Subject of course to economy/world events. At that time, both CA/FO groups will be way better off. Very strategic move. I suspect the “NO” vote champions, work for a competitor, because it’s impossible there is in-house ignorance of the blatant risks associated with voting a decent first TA down. Would demonstrate a weak tactical move. Potential arbitration, possible clawbacks of the gains, etc. That’s a no-confidence fact for anyone familiar with failed contract negots. Let the established carriers be the champion for change when their talks open. I hope all the carriers realize decent gains, but the little guy shouldn’t be saddled with that expectation right from the gate. And btw, from what I’ve seen posted here in the charts, with the possible exception of the FO side, a 10yr CA salary of $208K (guaranteed!!) appears to be a positive change in the right direction. Anyways, yeah…..the TA will pass!

Don’t vote yes out of fear, if you personally are fine with it then vote yes, but don’t just because you are afraid of arbitration . What others are posting here is true though, we as Canadian airline pilots, are in the best negotiating position in decades. Aircraft require competent pilots to fly them, there are many more aircraft arriving in the Canadian market then ever before. Thinking you will have a better opportunity in 3 years to improve is short sighted, you have the opportunity right now-you should take it.

[rudder]

Don’t vote yes out of fear, if you personally are fine with it then vote yes, but don’t just because you are afraid of arbitration . What others are posting here is true though, we as Canadian airline pilots, are in the best negotiating position in decades. Aircraft require competent pilots to fly them, there are many more aircraft arriving in the Canadian market then ever before. Thinking you will have a better opportunity in 3 years to improve is short sighted, you have the opportunity right now-you should take it.

Why would there be a risk of arbitration? There is no such reference in the Canada Labour Code. And Flair is the furthest thing from an ‘essential service’ so zero chance of legislative intervention by the Federal Government.

It would only be possible if both the parties mutually consent to arbitration, or it is already articulated in the current FLAIR CBA.

[Polar Bear]

Wow this is not good enough especially for the fo’s

[oakmoss1889]

I suspect the “NO” vote champions, work for a competitor, because it’s impossible there is in-house ignorance of the blatant risks associated with voting a decent first TA down.

I suspect you're out of touch then. Lots of talk of no votes within, and talk of looking elesewhere if it passes.
Decent maybe for those 95 pilots getting the 7000 shares lol

[vrefplus5]

I suspect you're quite right, and I'm a bit out of touch. Regardless, while not perfect...not by a long shot....the TA will pass. There will undoubtedly be winners and losers in any TA.....and many quite vocal, as is their right to voice displeasure. However I'm sure the majority of those pilots over there at F8 are critical thinkers, and will play the long game/see the bigger picture. Not focus soley on the lack of % parity the CA's received....which admittedly is still weak, given the current climate.

[Canadaflyer46]

I suspect you're quite right, and I'm a bit out of touch. Regardless, while not perfect...not by a long shot....the TA will pass. There will undoubtedly be winners and losers in any TA.....and many quite vocal, as is their right to voice displeasure. However I'm sure the majority of those pilots over there at F8 are critical thinkers, and will play the long game/see the bigger picture. Not focus soley on the lack of % parity the CA's received....which admittedly is still weak, given the current climate.

I sure as hell hope this pile of crap does not pass. In the current climate there is no excuse whatsoever for voting in a TA that gives the FOs basically no raise. Every other pilot group have their eyes on Flair right now, so I do hope they don't squander their chance for proper gains and vote this crap in with tunnel vision from the quick upgrades.

[r97d]

wow interested to see what other airlines do in the following year