The Air Canada OTS thread

[rudder]

ACPA has a seniority projection estimator up and running now. It’s showing retirements around 125 a year. With 4800 pilots on the last equipment bid and the most junior WB captain position at 1500, pilots should be estimating 30 years before WB captain at the most junior position. Now that’s a very conservative number, but still that’s the math right now. Personally, I have no doubt you made the right call.

Actually, you can fly WB CA for NB CA pay at about 6-7 years seniority (767F).

At that point you’re better off going to Cargojet and making more money. Because the flying is relatively the same.

Not to drift too far from the thread topic but…… with Flair offering $150k to start as 737 CA (still not enough),CargoJet and Morningstar will both have to look at improving the starting 757/767 pay rate to remain competitive. As far as I know, only CargoJet are hiring DEC.

[DanWEC]

ACPA has a seniority projection estimator up and running now. It’s showing retirements around 125 a year. With 4800 pilots on the last equipment bid and the most junior WB captain position at 1500, pilots should be estimating 30 years before WB captain at the most junior position. Now that’s a very conservative number, but still that’s the math right now. Personally, I have no doubt you made the right call.

Thanks for the info, appreciate it.

[Curiousflyer]

ACPA has a seniority projection estimator up and running now. It’s showing retirements around 125 a year. With 4800 pilots on the last equipment bid and the most junior WB captain position at 1500, pilots should be estimating 30 years before WB captain at the most junior position. Now that’s a very conservative number, but still that’s the math right now. Personally, I have no doubt you made the right call.

Actually, you can fly WB CA for NB CA pay at about 6-7 years seniority (767F).

You can today, but 767F went down to seniority 3000. So someone new coming in today that could be 10 years away when looking at retirements. Good point though, it’s an option to fly big metal for those that are interested in that.

[rudder]

ACPA has a seniority projection estimator up and running now. It’s showing retirements around 125 a year. With 4800 pilots on the last equipment bid and the most junior WB captain position at 1500, pilots should be estimating 30 years before WB captain at the most junior position. Now that’s a very conservative number, but still that’s the math right now. Personally, I have no doubt you made the right call.

Actually, you can fly WB CA for NB CA pay at about 6-7 years seniority (767F).

You can today, but 767F went down to seniority 3000. So someone new coming in today that could be 10 years away when looking at retirements. Good point though, it’s an option to fly big metal for those that are interested in that.

Yes. But flying a WB for NB pay is nothing to brag about.

[Curiousflyer]

Actually, you can fly WB CA for NB CA pay at about 6-7 years seniority (767F).

You can today, but 767F went down to seniority 3000. So someone new coming in today that could be 10 years away when looking at retirements. Good point though, it’s an option to fly big metal for those that are interested in that.

Yes. But flying a WB for NB pay is nothing to brag about.

I completely agree, but not everyone shares our viewpoint. I’m just trying to provide as unbiased information as I can so readers can make the best decisions they can for their future careers. People considering AC for the freighter option should closer consider CargoJet. If you’re interested in Cargo Ops I think it’s the better option, especially for those aged 30+. For those looking to Captain a widebody as soon as possible could look at Transat as well, but I’m unsure how things are looking over there right now with projected upgrades.

[Hangry]

Actually, you can fly WB CA for NB CA pay at about 6-7 years seniority (767F).

You can today, but 767F went down to seniority 3000. So someone new coming in today that could be 10 years away when looking at retirements. Good point though, it’s an option to fly big metal for those that are interested in that.

Yes. But flying a WB for NB pay is nothing to brag about.

What NB CA in Canada makes 260 - 270k a year? Should be higher but….

[joefo]

Anyone hear of a January PIT course? / anyone been called for one in the new year?

Called for Jan 2

OTS or jazz?

OTS

[y61900]

When did you interview?

[canadian_aviator_4]

Getting answers from Joefo sounds as easy as pulling teeth.

[JHR]

He is busy calculating how he will pay the mortgage for the next four years

[Ash Ketchum]

He is busy calculating how he will pay the mortgage for the next four years

I'm personally dipping into the HELOC to pay the mortgage and hoping for a quick upgrade...

[ZBBYLW]

You can today, but 767F went down to seniority 3000. So someone new coming in today that could be 10 years away when looking at retirements. Good point though, it’s an option to fly big metal for those that are interested in that.

Yes. But flying a WB for NB pay is nothing to brag about.

What NB CA in Canada makes 260 - 270k a year? Should be higher but….

Rouge Captains were being paid more than that while Rouge was still a thing.

ML captains are 240-270. I did one OT trip all year and otherwise did no extra time and flew on the lower end, looks like about 245k for me. Many guys will do more OT trips and very easily add to that total. I'm year 10 pay.

[Hangry]

Yes. But flying a WB for NB pay is nothing to brag about.

What NB CA in Canada makes 260 - 270k a year? Should be higher but….

Rouge Captains were being paid more than that while Rouge was still a thing.

ML captains are 240-270. I did one OT trip all year and otherwise did no extra time and flew on the lower end, looks like about 245k for me. Many guys will do more OT trips and very easily add to that total. I'm year 10 pay.

My point exactly.

[dumbbell daddy]

I was 3 months from updating my resume and references doing their thing.
They hire in waves from different companies and regimes however, I was told I was in the "to call" pile about 2 months prior to getting the email.

Have you heard back?

I actually declined. After weighing all the pros and cons, spreadsheets, and a few sleepless nights I realized I'm actually much better off where I am in terms of schedule, pay, seniority and equipment. I'd be doing a 20 year reset for no reason.

It was interesting to dissect the career-long, industry-wide mentality I had that regarding AC at the apex. If I was under 30 and trying to get off an RJ, then it would a different story, but for me, with barely 20 left years to go, already on a widebody with a great schedule, the step backwards in all facets just doesn't make any sense. I was actually a bit disheartened once I had everything laid out in black and white, as I always looked forward to AC but it's just too long of a game. Believe me, hitting send on that email was a weird one, but it's nice to feel settled and no longer chasing anything. Definitely the first time for that! Now I just hope that the gamble on job security doesn't bite me... This is aviation after all.

I can relate Dan. I was laid off and decided not to go back once I was recalled. I resigned my seniority. Similar conclusions that you came too.

[schnitzel2k3]

He is busy calculating how he will pay the mortgage for the next four years

I'm personally dipping into the HELOC to pay the mortgage and hoping for a quick upgrade...

That was the financial advice I got from a senior WB Captain about 7 years ago, who was slightly out of touch with the starting wages. Had no idea the first 4 years kept pilots under 100k on paper, and that year 1 was under 60k. Found out when their child started flying the flag and had to support them.

Fingers crossed for a quick upgrade. Last thing you want is a layoff going into a recession and paying a mortgage with a heloc while driving for Uber Eats. Mind you, you'd orobably make more with tips.

[Ash Ketchum]

He is busy calculating how he will pay the mortgage for the next four years

I'm personally dipping into the HELOC to pay the mortgage and hoping for a quick upgrade...

That was the financial advice I got from a senior WB Captain about 7 years ago, who was slightly out of touch with the starting wages. Had no idea the first 4 years kept pilots under 100k on paper, and that year 1 was under 60k. Found out when their child started flying the flag and had to support them.

Fingers crossed for a quick upgrade. Last thing you want is a layoff going into a recession and paying a mortgage with a heloc while driving for Uber Eats. Mind you, you'd orobably make more with tips.

Exactly, definitely lots of risk but the potential reward may just be worth it. I doubt layoffs will occur this time around but I wouldn't be surprised if hiring slows/stops in 2023 and lots of guys get stuck on the bottom for awhile.

[JHR]

Really sad that we are even having this conversation about our NHL of airlines

[schnitzel2k3]

I'm personally dipping into the HELOC to pay the mortgage and hoping for a quick upgrade...

That was the financial advice I got from a senior WB Captain about 7 years ago, who was slightly out of touch with the starting wages. Had no idea the first 4 years kept pilots under 100k on paper, and that year 1 was under 60k. Found out when their child started flying the flag and had to support them.

Fingers crossed for a quick upgrade. Last thing you want is a layoff going into a recession and paying a mortgage with a heloc while driving for Uber Eats. Mind you, you'd orobably make more with tips.

Exactly, definitely lots of risk but the potential reward may just be worth it. I doubt layoffs will occur this time around but I wouldn't be surprised if hiring slows/stops in 2023 and lots of guys get stuck on the bottom for awhile.

Good luck brother, fingers crossed it all works out.

[Blueontop]

Really sad that we are even having this conversation about our NHL of airlines

Exactly why this will never change. While guys are justifying using a heloc to survive 4 years at the major league the industry fat cats are laughing. Fingers crossed for a quick upgrade? Pretty big gamble on your family’s future..

Doesn’t AC have a 2 strike and your out policy with regard to upgrades? FO for life after that?

“Lot of risks with only POTENTIAL rewards” should be a damn near guarantee.

KNOW YOUR WORTH PEOPLE!

[lownslow]

I actually declined.

Good on you, they need to be told ‘no’ more often.

[Straight2Secondary]

Saying No, and more often ? You guys are a pair of idiots. While flat pay is a problem, a career at Air Canada is a solution for over 4500 pilots and likely 6000 plus in the coming years.

Give your head a shake guys, saying No to AC at a time like this is likely the dumbest thing anyone who has been offered the opportunity could do.

Good riddance. We don't want you.

[schnitzel2k3]

Just because it's the most visible airline in Canada...doesn't automatically make it the best option to hang your hat for everyone.

AC is a huge downward force on salary in Canada. Some people don't want to support that.

[JHR]

Ya man! If you don't want to be the lowest paid WB FO on planet Earth we don't want you!

[Inverted2]

I turned down an interview just before the covid. I figured out the flat pay would have cost me $250k in lost wages. I would have lost my current 7 weeks vacation and stats, DB pension, weekends and holidays off for a number of years. Plus there’s that 2 year layoff that I would have got.

I think there’s going to be more turbulence ahead. Recession incoming, and our little Cuban dictator doesn’t want the plebs flying away for those winter escapes. That causes climate change. Only he can do that. He’s gonna tax aviation into oblivion so that only the wealthy can afford it.

[Blueontop]

Saying No, and more often ? You guys are a pair of idiots. While flat pay is a problem, a career at Air Canada is a solution for over 4500 pilots and likely 6000 plus in the coming years.

Give your head a shake guys, saying No to AC at a time like this is likely the dumbest thing anyone who has been offered the opportunity could do.

Good riddance. We don't want you.

Must have hit a nerve on this one

Your comment makes it seem as though flat pay “is just little problem” when it’s basically the deciding factor in going to the NHL. HMMMM can i survive 4 YEARS in poverty?
Creates a two-tier system where one has to still live with the parents or has a sugar daddy/mommy or actually going into DEBT to be able to say YES. Leaving otherwise qualified individuals behind who don’t have either to HAVE to say NO..

The point is the only way to CHANGE it is more and more ppl say NO! An unfortunate and bitter pill to swallow.

Guess you weren’t one of the one layed off for 2 years with no YOS but just to be clear I never said say no or don’t go there.