The good old days before the PPC

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:14 pm

I'm going blind reading all the PPC hand wringing about to pay or not to pay.

What was wrong with the way it used to be when the Chief Pilot gave you your check rides and decided if you were competent enough to hire, or keep?

I guess in todays enlightened world of aviation a Chief Pilot just can't be trusted to make such awsome decisions...

Juggs · Post by **Juggs** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:36 pm

I don't think the Chief Pilot deciding who flies and who doesn't generates enough paper work.

It is quite sad that things have come down to having a PPC rather than being able to actually drive airplanes.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 8:49 pm

Juggs, it will only get worse as the need to make more rules eventually results in the final change from pilot license to robot license.

You have no idea how wonderful it feels to finally get out of this business.

Cat

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sat Nov 12, 2005 10:04 pm

Cat - We crashed a lot (in the eyes of some)
Justice Charles Dubin saw a "Photo Op" that was too good to pass up and in a save face move, this is what TC cam up with.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 4:17 pm

Many years ago, there was a wise old airman who visited Regina from Denver with an Aero Commander owned by the company that was building the potash mine @ Belle Plaine Sask. He claimed that the biggest hazard to a pilot's career will not come from weather or mechanical failure but will come from the actions of accountants and lawyers. Accountants can defeat years of work faster than any person or thing ever invented. It is the actions of lawyers that drive the actions of bureaucrats and he was so correct.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Sun Nov 13, 2005 9:50 pm

Cat / Oldtimer

Did the requirment for a PPC drive up training costs to the levels we now see?

What were the old rules regarding min flight training time in say a light twin or 19 pax commuter?

If a pilot left one company for another operating the same type did the new company save huge $$ on training
(other than having a pilot with time on type)

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:11 am

" What were the old rules regarding min flight training time in say a light twin or 19 pax commuter? "

There were no "rules" we as new hires or Chief Pilots were hired to fly the airplane based on our ability to safely fly the airplane.

A light twin or 19 seat Pax commuter is just another airplane and flys like any other airplane...these are not secret designs that only those with special training can fly , they are f.ckin airplanes and all one needs is to learn their systems and get comfortable with flying them

Usually a pilot will spend time in the right seat before flying as PIC...

With the DC3 you usually had around a thousand hours as a FO before upgrading to PIC, hell if you ain't figured the thing out by then all the PPC training on earth is not going to help you.

" If a pilot left one company for another operating the same type did the new company save huge $$ on training "

If you left one company for another to fly the same type of airplane the Chief Pilot only needed to fly one session with you to tell if you were of a quality that he felt he could turn lose.

The PPC thing is just another requirement that someone in TC decided was going to be put in place with no real reason for instigating it as far as I can see, unless of course they decided that a Chief Pilot was only there as a scape goat fore when something goes wrong.

What would you rather have someone that actually knows how to fly giving you your check ride or one of TC inspectors making the decision based on " Rules " hell I have met some of these guys that I wouldn't let drive a lawn mower, let alone judge who can fly?

Sure some of them are good pilots, but how about the ones that someone like me would never hire because they scare the hell out of me just thinking about letting them loose in an airplane.

Hey, I'm on my way to bed so get back to me again if you want any more of my thoughts on this subject.

Cat

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:39 am

" With the DC3 you usually had around a thousand hours as a FO before upgrading to PIC, hell if you ain't figured the thing out by then all the PPC training on earth is not going to help you. "

So what happened when the airlines were calling and the f/o only had 300 hrs ? CP's call? then finger pointing IF there was an accident.

"If you left one company for another to fly the same type of airplane the Chief Pilot only needed to fly one session with you to tell if you were of a quality that he felt he could turn lose. "

If you leave one company with a valid PPC you only need to do ground training and 1 hr with the new CP

Well there is no way TC would do anything like getting rid of the PPC, after the next accident the media would be all over them, not to mention famliers/lawyers for "relaxing training standards"

maybe the PPC should NOT be transferible. The Comany that paid for the training has 2 yrs, then you need to do another ride.

If another company hires you, inital type training required = same cost for EVERY new employee.

Right now a valid PPC is like currency - it saves the new employer money - if we devalue the currency pilots cannot quit before the ink is dry on the PPC card

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:22 am

"Well there is no way TC would do anything like getting rid of the PPC, after the next accident the media would be all over them, not to mention famliers/lawyers for "relaxing training standards"

Man oh man some of you guys just don't get it do you.

What in hell do you mean by "relaxing the training standards' ?

You train to get a license to a standard, once you have the license you only need training on type and ongoing day to day flying in the industry to build up your experience level.

If a pilot came to me for a job when I was in management I would no more have looked at a PPC card than I would have looked at his/her personal log book

I had three steps that I took to decide yes or no to a new job applicant.

(1) Interview.

(2) Fly with applicant

(3) If needed pick up phone and do some background checking...that one sometimes changed my mind from yes to no.

Now here is a deal for some TC Inspector..

It has been 25 years since I flew a Super Cat, our company has a contract to get a Super Cat airworthy and test fly it for a ferry flight to Chino California.

The Airplane has been stored outside for over 15 years and there is a lot of work to get it airworthy again, one problem was we found the supercharger was badly damaged and had to change an engine, after three weeks my partners want me down there to do some work on it and then test fly it.

My PPC will consist of sitting in the cockpit and familiarizing myself with this particular airplane...I will read the POH, especially the parts dealing with the Wright R2600 engine handling proceedures.

Then I will do several test flights and fly several hours to determine the status of the engines and the airframe...The last check will be a final oil screen check and if everything is O.K. we will ferry it to Chino.

So if there is anyone from TC that wants to make a thousand U.S. dollars cash for a six and a half hour ferry flight here is the deal.

Neither you nor I have a valid PPC on a Super Cat, but I do know how to fix and fly one so if you can start it, taxi it and fly it to my satisfaction you can fly it as a crew member to Chino.

Oh a couple other small issues, if you wish to fly it as PIC after you satisfy me that you are "SAFE " then you will have to get the owner to agree to let you fly his new toy, and of course that will mean the insurance providers will have approve you.

And there gang is the big stumbling block, after all is said and done the insurance companies will say yes or no. And of course to fly PIC you will need a PBY type rating.

Now to the good part, the TC person who sucessfully gets from Hi ., to walking away from the Super Cat in Chino has shown that a PPC was not really needed to safely fly any airplane...its bureaucratic paper work and has exactly that value.

By the way, I have flown with some TC guys who would breeze through the whole process with no problem...but they are not with TC now.

Cat

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:45 am

[quote="Cat Driver"] "Man oh man some of you guys just don't get it do you.

What in hell do you mean by "relaxing the training standards' ?"

Sorry Cat I was not clear enough. By placing "relaxing training standards" in quotes I was trying to quote the media and the lawyers or rather what they would want they would have the public beleive.

I agree the CP should have authority over who flies and who does not.

Now we have PPCs TC will not just abolish them. Why does a PPC have to be transferible?

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:56 am

" Now we have PPCs TC will not just abolish them. Why does a PPC have to be transferible? "

Edo my friend I pride myself in knowing a few things about the flying business but asking me that question is beyond my ability to respond to.

Why not take the direct route and contact whoever is in charge of that policy in Ottawa and ask that person?

Always get their answer in writing, then let us know the answer..

By the way Edo, how many TC types do you think will jump at the offer I made?

Cat

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:21 am

Cat Driver wrote:"
By the way Edo, how many TC types do you think will jump at the offer I made?

Cat

My guess would be that none would respond much less on TC letterhead.

My point is that a PPC is treated as a currency, one that allows unethical people to break a verbal or written contarct with an employer.

If the currency is devalued ie non-transferable the issue of Bonds may not be as important.

An employer could still contract you for a set, fair term (1-2 yrs) based on training recieved. The problem of one company funding another's training program needs to be stopped

yes contracts could (and would) still be broken (by both sides) but I think we would see it less often if there was not such a big finincal reward for a company to hire only pilots with a current PPC

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 11:47 am

Edo:

The transferable PPC is just another nail in the coffin of the industry which has caused a financial burden on your industry.

But you are basically f.cked because you are at the mercy of a small group of decision makers in power at Tower C in Ottawa, they could care less about you or the industry their only concern is keeping the status quo and protecting their own power base.

The bottom line is you are at the bottom and they could care less about you.

What is needed is a change in the culture at the top in TC, if we get a new party in power in Ottawa, I'm going after the new Transport Minister to remove the DGCA as that is where the change must start.

I truly believe that I have enough compelling evidence against the DGCA to get a new Minister of Transport to at least investigate my allegations.

Cat

peterparka · Post by **peterparka** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:07 pm

I agree the PPC is currency -- You buy it You get the job. The industry has changed and those who roll with it will excel -- those who fight it will wind up here complaining. I have seen it ,this is the biggest load of whiners. Get THE REQUIREMENTS POSTED and GET THE JOB. I hope it does change --- but until then....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:18 pm

" I agree the PPC is currency -- You buy it You get the job. The industry has changed and those who roll with it will excel -- those who fight it will wind up here complaining. I have seen it ,this is the biggest load of whiners. Get THE REQUIREMENTS POSTED and GET THE JOB. I hope it does change --- but until then.... "

peterparka, I take it you are in agreement with the way things are with regard to buying your right to work?

Go back and read my offer to any TC inspector about getting a job, I offer you the same opportunity to put your ability to fly where your mouth is regarding buying a job.

But you had better know what you are doing or you sure would not fly with us.

By the way do you think you are worth USD $1000.00 for six hours of flying?

Cat

peterparka · Post by **peterparka** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:41 pm

I dont agree the way things are, but this is the new reality. Thats all I am saying. You buy your IFR you buy your PPC that is the new system. Join the air force if you want it for free. And gas aint going back to 107 a gallon. You have to pay for it! thats what I am saying. I have paid off my training and I concider it INVESTMENT. nothing is free anymore. Too many pilots looking for the free ride.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:59 pm

peterparka wrote:I agree the PPC is currency -- You buy it You get the job. The industry has changed and those who roll with it will excel -- those who fight it will wind up here complaining. I have seen it ,this is the biggest load of whiners. Get THE REQUIREMENTS POSTED and GET THE JOB. I hope it does change --- but until then....

So every time you want to change jobs your gonna go buy a new PPC or Type Rating? and just roll with it b/c your gonna excel??? WTF!!

you are not hoping for change. You are defeating the possibility of it.

Would a sound businessman continually invest in a currency that expires every 2 years without reinvestment? One that the only way to cash it in is to break a contract. AND after you break that contract your investment is worthless because the new employer will not pay you 10K extra because you have a PPC??

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 1:43 pm

Edo, there is an old saying " you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink "

TC counts on the mentality that just bends over and gets shafted, without lube.

It seems our friend peterparka fits the mold for TC just perfect.

You should be more worried about peterparka getting on with TC than any real competetion he/ she may be in the market.

Cat

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:15 pm

Cat,

I'm not worried about peterparka being any competition.

My investment will be the logcabin on lakefront property with a decertified floatplane. I will have time to enjoy it on my scheduled days off, being free from an airline senority list mentality

their investment will hopefully cover the expence of a new peter parka they will need before putting the 14th ppc to use in upper dog testicle ONT.

You are right the big worry would be to find them in lower dog testicle ONT selectively enforcing regs

peterparka · Post by **peterparka** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:07 pm

You have your situation I have mine --
You need to worry more about youself -- will make you happier.
I never said I have bought a PPC I dont even fly for profit anymore -- If you look at the job requirements they all say PPC required -- All I was saying is it is the NEW REALITY -- some are so sensetive on the subject. Next youll want all training paid for. KIDS

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Mon Nov 14, 2005 9:04 pm

A couple of my experiences in the days pre PPC.

I was co-pilot on the DC-3, had about 5 or 600 hours on it and had been checked by the CP to fly from the left seat. I once did an instrument rating renewal with a TC inspector, and he flew as co-pilot. Nobody else on the aircraft, just him and me. The last time he'd flown the DC-3 was back on the DEW line, so after the ride we flew around a bit and he did a few touch and goes. Looked like a kid in a candy store.

Another instance, a couple of us had to renew our instrument ratings on the F-27. TC in UL was on strike, so we flew the aircraft to QM and did the renewals there. The inspector had flown with us back in the HUT days and later was the CP for the Quebec Government on the F-27. He signed our renewals before we did the ride. The ride itself was little more than an ADF approach with a s/e missed approach and then change seats with the next guy. All the while the inspector was pulling circuit breakers. I thought it a little odd that he'd signed all our licenses before takeoff. Later back on the ground, I asked him about that and his reply was, "I already know you can fly the bloody airplane otherwise Bob would never have hired you in the first place. The only thing I wanted to see was how well you knew the systems."

Ahhhhh..the good old days.

Edo · Post by **Edo** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:53 am

well we wont every get back to the days like that - not in the lawsuit driven enviroment we live in.

I am not looking for a free handout. Just a fair deal. I just think that after ppl/cpl/ifr paid out of pocket PPC's are the employers responsibility. Part of the cost of doing business. In return for the PPC I agree to spend 1-2 yrs at the company that trained me. Thats my responsibilty.

I understand the employer requestiong a bond, secured with the pilots money, they have likely been burnt before. I cannot support it. Likewise hiring only pilots with a current PPC - the employer cannot get burnt. (just their competition)

In the PPC was non-transferiable the pilot cannot run and burn the employer. The system we have now is not fair. How often does this happen???

Well I see you have a current PPC , the salary is going to be 8,000 more (to reflect your investment) !!

Well I understand you have a bond at another company, We really want you working for us, and are prepared to pay out your bond.

Who is looking for the free ride? At this point, I think the employer is looking for a free ride on manditory training.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:44 pm

Hi gang, I'm in Moses Lake Washington and it looks like the Super Cat will take about another week to ten days to get ready for the test flights.

It was with bated breath that I logged on to see to see if any of the TC guys had PM'ed me to take advantage of the offer of getting a PPC on the Cat from me and maybe pick up a Thousand US dollars mad money, but alas there was only a couple of messages about my planned float plane venture.

So I am going to cut and paste my really generous offer again just in case some of the TC types missed it during their surfing of Avcanada, never let it be said that the o'l Cat does not try and help out all his friends.

" Now here is a deal for some TC Inspector..

It has been 25 years since I flew a Super Cat, our company has a contract to get a Super Cat airworthy and test fly it for a ferry flight to Chino California.

The Airplane has been stored outside for over 15 years and there is a lot of work to get it airworthy again, one problem was we found the supercharger was badly damaged and had to change an engine, after three weeks my partners want me down there to do some work on it and then test fly it.

My PPC will consist of sitting in the cockpit and familiarizing myself with this particular airplane...I will read the POH, especially the parts dealing with the Wright R2600 engine handling proceedures.

Then I will do several test flights and fly several hours to determine the status of the engines and the airframe...The last check will be a final oil screen check and if everything is O.K. we will ferry it to Chino.

So if there is anyone from TC that wants to make a thousand U.S. dollars cash for a six and a half hour ferry flight here is the deal.

Neither you nor I have a valid PPC on a Super Cat, but I do know how to fix and fly one so if you can start it, taxi it and fly it to my satisfaction you can fly it as a crew member to Chino.

Oh a couple other small issues, if you wish to fly it as PIC after you satisfy me that you are " SAFE " then you will have to get the owner to agree to let you fly his new toy, and of course that will mean the insurance providers will have approve you.

And there gang is the big stumbling block, after all is said and done the insurance companies will say yes or no. And of course to fly PIC you will need a PBY type rating.

Now to the good part, the TC person who sucessfully gets from Hi ., to walking away from the Super Cat in Chino has shown that a PPC was not really needed to safely fly any airplane...its bureaucratic paper work and has exactly that value.

By the way, I have flown with some TC guys who would breeze through the whole process with no problem...but they are not with TC now. "
Cat
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