Negotiations

[rudder]

Correct me if I’m wrong but both Jazz and AC pilots contracts have similar if not the same language regarding sale and ownership, basically stating if another company owns or is wholly owned, those pilots will be on their list.
It does opens the door to arbitration with that specific language in both cba’s, I do realize this can be agreed to be waved but increases the likelihood to greater than 10%, in my opinion because it is more likely one party will force the issue to arbitration if an agreement is not forthcoming.

I have copies of both CBA’s. Neither require a seniority consolidation in the event of a change of control.

Further, the ACPA CBA specifically prohibits AC from supporting a common employer petition absent ACPA consent.

The merger language simply protects employment rights and WAWCON. All other matters per the Canada Labour Code.

AC has owned Jazz/Express/AC Regionals before and it never resulted in either an operational consolidation or a pilot seniority integration. Doubt it would be any different if AC owns Jazz again.

[cdnavater]

Correct me if I’m wrong but both Jazz and AC pilots contracts have similar if not the same language regarding sale and ownership, basically stating if another company owns or is wholly owned, those pilots will be on their list.
It does opens the door to arbitration with that specific language in both cba’s, I do realize this can be agreed to be waved but increases the likelihood to greater than 10%, in my opinion because it is more likely one party will force the issue to arbitration if an agreement is not forthcoming.

I have copies of both CBA’s. Neither require a seniority consolidation in the event of a change of control.

Further, the ACPA CBA specifically prohibits AC from supporting a common employer petition absent ACPA consent.

The merger language simply protects employment rights and WAWCON. All other matters per the Canada Labour Code.

AC has owned Jazz/Express/AC Regionals before and it never resulted in either an operational consolidation or a pilot seniority integration. Doubt it would be any different if AC owns Jazz again.

From ACPA 2020 agreement, I’ll dig in ours after, pretty sure it’s there, the Voyageur grievance was/is based on it.

1.02 Scope All Pilot Positions and all flying performed by or on behalf of the Company or its Affiliates, including all flying utilizing the Company IATA designator code (AC or ACA) or future similar designator code will be occupied and performed by Air Canada Pilots exclusively in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement
1.03.03 Affiliate means any entity incorporated in Canada or operating aircraft in Canada that controls the Company or that the Company controls and any Specialty Company

[iflygirl_92]

The airlines have no choice, but to increase pay this graph from transport Canada, see of how many airline transport license were actually issued over the years noticed the trend..... With retirement and 2 to 3 year captains going to Air Canada from Jazz, There is a competition for pilots and Jazz is losing
all these posts on the web boards will only help the pilot group get the proper compensation they deserve at Jazz.
Once again, do not come to Jazz not until the pay is substantially increased. There are much better opportunities.

[rudder]

From ACPA 2020 agreement, I’ll dig in ours after, pretty sure it’s there, the Voyageur grievance was/is based on it.

1.02 Scope All Pilot Positions and all flying performed by or on behalf of the Company or its Affiliates, including all flying utilizing the Company IATA designator code (AC or ACA) or future similar designator code will be occupied and performed by Air Canada Pilots exclusively in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement
1.03.03 Affiliate means any entity incorporated in Canada or operating aircraft in Canada that controls the Company or that the Company controls and any Specialty Company

Exactly. And Article 1 is almost completely about the ‘exceptions’ to 1.02 (think codeshare and Express).

ACPA is not interested in triggering a merger with Jazz. I am sure the language is based on that. The proposed acquisition of TRZ was a different animal. And the issue of consolidation was never fully visited by the parties as the transaction was ultimately terminated.

Ask an ACPA rep if AC buying Jazz will trigger a seniority integration per any language contained in the ACPA CBA. I am pretty sure of the answer.

[kiaszceski]

What if AC becomes ALPA?
I think the new MEC was the ALPA MEC from another carrier ?

[kiaszceski]

The airlines have no choice, but to increase pay this graph from transport Canada, see of how many airline transport license were actually issued over the years noticed the trend..... With retirement and 2 to 3 year captains going to Air Canada from Jazz, There is a competition for pilots and Jazz is losing
all these posts on the web boards will only help the pilot group get the proper compensation they deserve at Jazz.
Once again, do not come to Jazz not until the pay is substantially increased. There are much better opportunities.

Does the graph take into account COVID ? How many are waiting because of TC's short of people able to issue licences ?

[Transition9er2]

Genuinely curious how anyone who believes a Jazz/AC merger would involve some kind of pilot list integration when a large number of Jazz pilots are below 1500 hrs not to mention no ATPL’s.

How does this work?

[RoAF-Mig21]

Genuinely curious how anyone who believes a Jazz/AC merger would involve some kind of pilot list integration when a large number of Jazz pilots are below 1500 hrs not to mention no ATPL’s.

How does this work?

There would be fences in place:

1. They'll have to write their ATPLs and end up with a "frozen" ATPL, like Europe has.
2. A program needs to be put in place for PICus
3. A deadline to get your ATPL

OR

A partnership with other carriers / operators that will allow pilots to take a leave of absence.

OR

Be refused a position until they have their ATPLs...

OR

be forced to work as RPs...


Lufthansa, KLM, BA, etc. have 250 hrs flying A320s / 777RP, etc... (with frozen ATPLs) It can happen, even here in Canada.

It would be a pain in the ass, but it can happen if they need to.


On a personal note, I find it IDIOTIC that Transport Canada thinks a guy with 1500 hrs on a Cessna 172 (and 50 hrs multi) can have an ATPL. I think nobody should be issued an ATPL unless they have at least 500 hrs on some sort of multi engine, multi crew high performance aircraft. (As part of that 1500 hrs TT).

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

Just an observation. This thread very much resembles 1995. You are doing an admirable job keeping expectations in line with reality

As Rudder pointed out the a purchase of Jazz is different than a purchase of Transat within the ACPA collective agreement.

Summary of Article one. Any pilot operating an aircraft that is above the scope limit must be on the AC pilot seniority list.

In this case Transat would have had to integrate. Jazz no

[cdnavater]

Rudder,

Just an observation. This thread very much resembles 1995. You are doing an admirable job keeping expectations in line with reality

As Rudder pointed out the a purchase of Jazz is different than a purchase of Transat within the ACPA collective agreement.

Summary of Article one. Any pilot operating an aircraft that is above the scope limit must be on the AC pilot seniority list.

In this case Transat would have had to integrate. Jazz no

To be clear, I don’t have any expectations and Jazz being kept as a separate entity suits me better than the alternative, my problem is the what ifs and how that would play out.
If AC were to buy Jazz back it’s purpose would have to suit it’s needs, right now it needs pilots and can’t flow at the agreed upon rate. A separate company does not change that, so what other purpose does it accomplish?
Rid itself of a CPA that can’t be fulfilled by Jazz anyway, maybe trim some extra redundant staff, I don’t see huge savings there.
What does your contract say if they buy a company that operates smaller gauge equipment but does merge it in?
If they bought Porter? E2 pilots ok but Q400 pilots not on the list?
There are so many possibilities that one cannot rule any one thing out.
Let’s just say they did buy Jazz and ran it separate, is an AC pilots expectations that if there were reductions at mainline, could you bump and flush a Jazz pilot?
Now we are back to seniority and how to reconcile that.
Let’s enjoy the holidays and wait and see what 2023 brings, in a perfect world, big gains for all pilots!

[rudder]

Rudder,

Just an observation. This thread very much resembles 1995. You are doing an admirable job keeping expectations in line with reality

As Rudder pointed out the a purchase of Jazz is different than a purchase of Transat within the ACPA collective agreement.

Summary of Article one. Any pilot operating an aircraft that is above the scope limit must be on the AC pilot seniority list.

In this case Transat would have had to integrate. Jazz no

To be clear, I don’t have any expectations and Jazz being kept as a separate entity suits me better than the alternative, my problem is the what ifs and how that would play out.
If AC were to buy Jazz back it’s purpose would have to suit it’s needs, right now it needs pilots and can’t flow at the agreed upon rate. A separate company does not change that, so what other purpose does it accomplish?
Rid itself of a CPA that can’t be fulfilled by Jazz anyway, maybe trim some extra redundant staff, I don’t see huge savings there.
What does your contract say if they buy a company that operates smaller gauge equipment but does merge it in?
If they bought Porter? E2 pilots ok but Q400 pilots not on the list?
There are so many possibilities that one cannot rule any one thing out.
Let’s just say they did buy Jazz and ran it separate, is an AC pilots expectations that if there were reductions at mainline, could you bump and flush a Jazz pilot?
Now we are back to seniority and how to reconcile that.
Let’s enjoy the holidays and wait and see what 2023 brings, in a perfect world, big gains for all pilots!

I don’t want to regurgitate the whole 1986-2022 history of CALPA/ACPA/ALPA/AC/ACR/Jazz relations. There are lessons to be learned but many that are here now (both AC and Jazz/Express to include the former GGN and SKV pilots) want to look forward not backward. Also, the demographics of the groups have changed dramatically.

Bottom line is that AC has owned its regional(s) in the past. No consolidation (single AOC), no integration (single list). No common employer declaration from the CLRB (now the CIRB).

The Canada Labour Code has protections for employees and collective agreements in force in the event of a sale of a business. So if Jazz has a new owner, those protections will apply. The new owner cannot void the CBA (successorship obligation). And the new owner cannot disband the employees to have their work performed by another employee group (right to follow work).

But if AC is the new owner it is likely that the AC/CHR CPA would be modified and renegotiated. Therein lies an issue as the Jazz pilot CBA contains references to specific terms of the current AC/CHR CPA which are the underpinning of the job security protections for Jazz pilots.

[Fanblade]

Rudder,

Just an observation. This thread very much resembles 1995. You are doing an admirable job keeping expectations in line with reality

As Rudder pointed out the a purchase of Jazz is different than a purchase of Transat within the ACPA collective agreement.

Summary of Article one. Any pilot operating an aircraft that is above the scope limit must be on the AC pilot seniority list.

In this case Transat would have had to integrate. Jazz no

What does your contract say if they buy a company that operates smaller gauge equipment but does merge it in?
If they bought Porter? E2 pilots ok but Q400 pilots not on the list?

Let’s enjoy the holidays and wait and see what 2023 brings, in a perfect world, big gains for all pilots!

First off your last line is the most important.

The ACPA CBA doesn’t care how many CPA carriers there are or if that carrier is owned or not. It makes no difference. So long as it stays below the scope threshold. If AC buys Jazz nothing changes.

In the case of your Porter example. The E2’s would need to be parked to stay below the scope threshold. CRA was required to park the F28 after Air Canada acquired them in the purchase of Canadian. At that time the F28 exceeded scope.

One thing I have noticed is this same debate is popping up on our side as well. However over here it is being pushed forward by people who want to fear monger an ALPA vote.

Any chance these rumours are originating from a single source?

[rudder]

One thing I have noticed is this same debate is popping up on our side as well. However over here it is being pushed forward by people who want to fear monger an ALPA vote.

Any chance these rumours are originating from a single source?

See below:

Thus, a “merger” is defined as a situation where there is a reasonable probability of sufficient
operational integration between or among two or more ALPA airlines that there is or will be a need
for an integrated seniority list, a JCBA and a merged MEC to adequately protect the employment
interests of the flight deck crew members. Its scope also recognizes that MECs may desire to make
agreements “at any time” – for example, before there is a “merger” as defined by policy – to enable
them to be involved in a potential merger at an early stage.

Feel free to post the following links on the other web board. You don’t get to the process in the second link unless you meet the criteria described above (first link) -

https://crewroom.alpa.org/ual/DesktopMo ... ntID=45274

http://www3.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?fil ... tabid=3345

[cdnavater]

Rudder wrote;
“Bottom line is that AC has owned its regional(s) in the past. No consolidation (single AOC), no integration (single list). No common employer declaration from the CLRB (now the CIRB).

The Canada Labour Code has protections for employees and collective agreements in force in the event of a sale of a business. So if Jazz has a new owner, those protections will apply. The new owner cannot void the CBA (successorship obligation). And the new owner cannot disband the employees to have their work performed by another employee group (right to follow work).

But if AC is the new owner it is likely that the AC/CHR CPA would be modified and renegotiated. Therein lies an issue as the Jazz pilot CBA contains references to specific terms of the current AC/CHR CPA which are the underpinning of the job security protections for Jazz pilots.”

Rudder,
I’m curious as to why you think the CPA would need negotiation, if they own it why would they need a purchase agreement at all?
Wouldn’t the cost savings simply come from operating at cost with no mark up in addition to getting rid of redundant positions, managers, dispatch, etc…

[rudder]

Rudder wrote;
“Bottom line is that AC has owned its regional(s) in the past. No consolidation (single AOC), no integration (single list). No common employer declaration from the CLRB (now the CIRB).

The Canada Labour Code has protections for employees and collective agreements in force in the event of a sale of a business. So if Jazz has a new owner, those protections will apply. The new owner cannot void the CBA (successorship obligation). And the new owner cannot disband the employees to have their work performed by another employee group (right to follow work).

But if AC is the new owner it is likely that the AC/CHR CPA would be modified and renegotiated. Therein lies an issue as the Jazz pilot CBA contains references to specific terms of the current AC/CHR CPA which are the underpinning of the job security protections for Jazz pilots.”

Rudder,
I’m curious as to why you think the CPA would need negotiation, if they own it why would they need a purchase agreement at all?
Wouldn’t the cost savings simply come from operating at cost with no mark up in addition to getting rid of redundant positions, managers, dispatch, etc…

CHR are not going to early terminate a CPA with a guaranteed revenue stream to 2035.

Revenue from the CPA is a combination of fixed fee (per airframe) and lease revenue from the CHR owned Express aircraft.

The actual sale of Jazz would likely not be a big number (perhaps even $1). Not much there in assets. But CHR would want the same guaranteed revenue stream which would likely come from an increased leasing component.

Hence, the CPA would need to be renegotiated if AC were to acquire Jazz (not CHR).

[cdnavater]

Rudder wrote;
“Bottom line is that AC has owned its regional(s) in the past. No consolidation (single AOC), no integration (single list). No common employer declaration from the CLRB (now the CIRB).

The Canada Labour Code has protections for employees and collective agreements in force in the event of a sale of a business. So if Jazz has a new owner, those protections will apply. The new owner cannot void the CBA (successorship obligation). And the new owner cannot disband the employees to have their work performed by another employee group (right to follow work).

But if AC is the new owner it is likely that the AC/CHR CPA would be modified and renegotiated. Therein lies an issue as the Jazz pilot CBA contains references to specific terms of the current AC/CHR CPA which are the underpinning of the job security protections for Jazz pilots.”

Rudder,
I’m curious as to why you think the CPA would need negotiation, if they own it why would they need a purchase agreement at all?
Wouldn’t the cost savings simply come from operating at cost with no mark up in addition to getting rid of redundant positions, managers, dispatch, etc…

CHR are not going to early terminate a CPA with a guaranteed revenue stream to 2035.

Revenue from the CPA is a combination of fixed fee (per airframe) and lease revenue from the CHR owned Express aircraft.

The actual sale of Jazz would likely not be a big number (perhaps even $1). Not much there in assets. But CHR would want the same guaranteed revenue stream which would likely come from an increased leasing component.

Hence, the CPA would need to be renegotiated if AC were to acquire Jazz (not CHR).

Ok, I guess I wasn’t clear, I assumed CHR would tie the possible sale to a long term leasing arrangement even to the point of fleet renewal being tied to it.
My question was more about the job security you mentioned being tied to the CPA, I was pondering would there be a CPA, to be clear if AC owned the Jazz business, it would be their own capacity.
The reason for a CPA is for the owner of the company to make money, this would be a shell game with finances wouldn’t it.
Now, keeping it separate and showing profit to later sell it, would require some mark up but sort of defeats the purpose, don’t you think?

[rudder]

Ok, I guess I wasn’t clear, I assumed CHR would tie the possible sale to a long term leasing arrangement even to the point of fleet renewal being tied to it.
My question was more about the job security you mentioned being tied to the CPA, I was pondering would there be a CPA, to be clear if AC owned the Jazz business, it would be their own capacity.
The reason for a CPA is for the owner of the company to make money, this would be a shell game with finances wouldn’t it.
Now, keeping it separate and showing profit to later sell it, would require some mark up but sort of defeats the purpose, don’t you think?

Yes, there would be a modified commercial relationship between CHR and AC mostly based on leasing.

No, there would not be a CPA between Jazz and AC since Jazz would be a wholly-owned subsidiary and a private company.

[kiaszceski]

Any new rumours for January about improved wawcons ?

[rudder]

Any new rumours for January about improved wawcons ?

Status quo.

Both AC and Jazz seem to feel that it is feasible to operate under current CBA’s rather than embark on a meaningful mark-to-market exercise.

So, it is about $$. No surprise there.

[Kosiw]

Feasible....AC/Jazz management shrink Jazz...manpower problem solved...no need to pay more to attract talent

[CPT.HarshColdReality]

Yup shrink jazz. Take all their pilots. Problem solved.

[Transition9er2]

Feasible....AC/Jazz management shrink Jazz...manpower problem solved...no need to pay more to attract talent

I think this is absolutely what they’re doing, but how long is it sustainable for?

Jazz has a very limited supply of pilots who are able to flow. As a result it still leaves them with a CA shortage and this plan/strategy could exponentially amplify the problem if the majority of upgradable pilots leave.

How much of a reduction would Jazz have to incur to balance out the group of pilots they have left?

Regardless, AC management is still charging ahead with hiring for 2023, latest number I heard was 800 new hires.

I can see a scenario playing out where AC pillage’s Jazz in the first quarter of 2023, but when that pool dries up PIT classes will drop back down to the teens.

Just in time for negotiations to begin.

[Inverted2]

It will be interesting to see how many head over to Porter. Newer aircraft. Better routes. Better pay. Jazz will have to match Porters pay if they want to attract DEC. Jazz has a finite amount of eligible pilots qualified and want to flow over to AC then it’s just the older crowd left who don’t want to go and CPL F/Os left.

[truedude]

I have to say I am becoming increasingly baffled and frustrated with whomever is making these decisions. Wherever the clog is that refuses to accept a significant pay raise is the only way to solve the current problem (outside some merger/one list scenario) needs to be removed.

A year ago I would bet money that Porter would fail with their 195 operation. Now, if they were to open a western base, I would say their success is all but guaranteed. They will decimate our experience pool, ensuring their operation has the ability to flourish, while simultaneously crippling our ability to compete. Flair, Porter, Lynx, Cargo Jet are all going after the same pilots we are, and offering considerably better pay. We simply won't attract the talent we need, or retain the experience we need, to keep the operation running. And the cost to fix the problem grows by the day, as more and more pilots go to other airlines. It will cost a lot more to try and sway people to Jazz or back to Jazz once they are at another operation. What magic fix do they believe will happen that will relieve the stress in the near term.

With China opening up, the demand for travel is set to sky rocket, and Air Canada will be limping along, unable to feed their international routes properly, while getting decimated domestically by competition that keeps moving in and picking up routes being dropped... The lack of forward vision is truly shocking!

I get 40 years of being able to erode the working conditions of pilots is a difficult drug to drop, but they really need to pull their heads out of their ass and get with the program and accept that the situation and the reality of the day has changed. Denying it hasn't, or hoping for a recession aren't practical solutions. If they keep clawing back routes at Jazz, it won't just be junior pilots leaving, as more and more senior ones may start to get concerned and decide it is best to grab a seat, before the situation implodes completely.

In the end we are talking about maybe a $1.00 more per seat to the cost of most regional tickets... are they really going to tell us that is the difference between profit and loss.. because if so, might as well just pack up the whole operation and call it a day.

[rudder]

I have to say I am becoming increasingly baffled and frustrated with whomever is making these decisions. Wherever the clog is that refuses to accept a significant pay raise is the only way to solve the current problem (outside some merger/one list scenario) needs to be removed.

A year ago I would bet money that Porter would fail with their 195 operation. Now, if they were to open a western base, I would say their success is all but guaranteed. They will decimate our experience pool, ensuring their operation has the ability to flourish, while simultaneously crippling our ability to compete. Flair, Porter, Lynx, Cargo Jet are all going after the same pilots we are, and offering considerably better pay. We simply won't attract the talent we need, or retain the experience we need, to keep the operation running. And the cost to fix the problem grows by the day, as more and more pilots go to other airlines. It will cost a lot more to try and sway people to Jazz or back to Jazz once they are at another operation. What magic fix do they believe will happen that will relieve the stress in the near term.

With China opening up, the demand for travel is set to sky rocket, and Air Canada will be limping along, unable to feed their international routes properly, while getting decimated domestically by competition that keeps moving in and picking up routes being dropped... The lack of forward vision is truly shocking!

I get 40 years of being able to erode the working conditions of pilots is a difficult drug to drop, but they really need to pull their heads out of their ass and get with the program and accept that the situation and the reality of the day has changed. Denying it hasn't, or hoping for a recession aren't practical solutions. If they keep clawing back routes at Jazz, it won't just be junior pilots leaving, as more and more senior ones may start to get concerned and decide it is best to grab a seat, before the situation implodes completely.

In the end we are talking about maybe a $1.00 more per seat to the cost of most regional tickets... are they really going to tell us that is the difference between profit and loss.. because if so, might as well just pack up the whole operation and call it a day.

On top of all this there needs to be a more credible and reliable career progression system in place between Jazz and AC.

I won’t hold my breath.