Negotiations

[kiaszceski]

Encore is negotiating, Sunning is finalizing a Tentative agreement, Flair is going to either have a new pay scale or they're gonna pay more.
Jazz can't wait until all other airlines are done having their pay scale.
The first company that'll improve conditions will fill in their pilots' pool.

How many are in the Jazz pool now? 50? 60?

[belgianmoon]

https://youtu.be/DmWWqogr_r8

[canadian_aviator_4]

A question: What experience level is actually applying to jazz. And if they are atpls. Why?

[RoAF-Mig21]

A question: What experience level is actually applying to jazz. And if they are atpls. Why?

Can you rephrase that in English? Jesus... (and I say that as an immigrant that has struggled to learn English)...

[RockSalty]

A question: What experience level is actually applying to jazz. And if they are atpls. Why?

Can you rephrase that in English? Jesus... (and I say that as an immigrant that has struggled to learn English)...

What level of experience do people that are applying to Jazz have, and if they have an ATPL; Why Jazz and not somewhere better?

[canadian_aviator_4]

A question: What experience level is actually applying to jazz. And if they are atpls. Why?

Can you rephrase that in English? Jesus... (and I say that as an immigrant that has struggled to learn English)...

If you think that’s bad, you should see my hand writing.

[RoAF-Mig21]

A question: What experience level is actually applying to jazz. And if they are atpls. Why?

Can you rephrase that in English? Jesus... (and I say that as an immigrant that has struggled to learn English)...

If you think that’s bad, you should see my hand writing.

I'm only teasing I struggle every day to speak the damn language (English)

[strengthinumbers]

New proposed pay for Encore pilots. Puts them roughly at the same starting pay as Air Canada pilots.

Encore MOA

-CA and FO receive lump sum payments of 850 a month if they are active for one day in the pay period
-CA and FO move up 2 pay steps on Jan 1 2023
-New Cap and new FO will start at year 3
-New CAP pay steps added for year 7 and 8 at 106.55 and 109.49
-Training pilots receive a lump sum payment of 500 a month
-LID instructors receive 120 per training day (up from 90)
-ACP receive 200 per training day (up from 155)
-Training pilot expense account of 600 (must comply with corporate expense policy)

[Malfunction]

Fellow Pilots,

 

The MEC convened December 19 in Toronto to review the progress of negotiations and determine next steps. A briefing was received from the Negotiating Committee outlining the nature of their discussions and the value that the Company was proposing. 

 

In short, the Company is seeking to reduce the number of Pilots they need to train through Section 5 relief, as well as seeking to increase their training capacity through Section 7 relief. In exchange for this relief, the MEC is seeking increases in total compensation. 

 

Following the briefings and MEC discussion, Jazz Senior Executives attended the meeting for an open dialogue with the MEC. The MEC delivered the message to Company Executives that there was not enough value in the current offer to justify the requested relief, however, we are willing to continue the dialogue in the new year.

 

In solidarity,

 

JAZ MEC

[rudder]

Jazz CBA deficiencies:

1. Year 1-5 pay scales (FO and CA)
2. AC flow enforcement
3. Training pilot overrides
4. Overtime premium
5. Non-DB Pension Plan company contribution rate
6. Benefit premium cost sharing formula
7. Unrestricted reassignment language/no override pay for reassignment
8. Inefficient pairings resulting in maximum days worked

There is a long list. Not sure which are on the negotiating committee shopping list but if the company is looking for any relief in 2023, most if not all of these items should be remedied.

As for starting pay - this has been discussed many times - is a company problem. It will not be paid for by the current pilots.

Jazz management (and others) should be looking at the Sunwing MOA to see the degree of change that will be required in mid-term bargaining if pilot recruitment and retention is a serious objective of the discussion.

[twa22]

Jazz management (and others) should be looking at the Sunwing MOA to see the degree of change that will be required in mid-term bargaining if pilot recruitment and retention is a serious objective of the discussion.

Would the new Encore MOA be more appropriate to look at? Seems like they actually got a decent offer with no concessions. I'm going by what others are saying in the Encore thread of course, but if that MOA holds, it would raise the bar, at least in terms of Q400 pay

[Rowdy]

Jazz CBA deficiencies:

1. Year 1-5 pay scales (FO and CA)
2. AC flow enforcement
3. Training pilot overrides
4. Overtime premium
5. Non-DB Pension Plan company contribution rate
6. Benefit premium cost sharing formula
7. Unrestricted reassignment language/no override pay for reassignment
8. Inefficient pairings resulting in maximum days worked

Its easy. And I WILL vote NO unless there is the following.

Year 1-5 pay REMOVED. Slide everyone up that scale.Most places only have a 12yr scale.
+30% on top of that for all remaining years
REA Incentive. 2hs TB MIN.
DELAY credit - 2hr TB
MIN credit pushed to 5hr
ALL events are guaranteed that 5. None of this only 4hrs for training events. None of this 4hr per day vacay nonsense.
Double Time triggers for WDO/OT.
Cap at 16 scheduled days per month. 80hr month and thats what you'd get with a 5.0hr min credit at 16 days.
Increase to DC pension contribution
Company to pay/fund 30% more of the benefit plans.

Ohh.. and for the AC flow screw up? 50k bonus. January 1st. Thats not even a fraction of what it's costing those that get stuck.

[flyingcanuck]

Lol that's a nice wish list

[truedude]

We are losing at least 2 captains to Flair out of YVR in January. Not sure how much longer the company can keep pretending there isn't a problem.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Now that the E2 has been issued a Canadian Type Certificate The Raccoon can take deliver so I expect the bleeding at Jazz to really start now.

[rudder]

Now that the E2 has been issued a Canadian Type Certificate The Raccoon can take deliver so I expect the bleeding at Jazz to really start now.

Has anybody paused to consider the possibility that is ‘the plan’?

Maybe it is a white flag capitulation that gives AC the right to void the CPA?

Both AC and Jazz seem loath to early opening the pilot CBA’s or embracing changes necessary to either legitimately represent the number 1 career option in Canada (AC) or to attract and retain qualified candidates (Jazz).

Maybe the hope is that a recession in 2023 will somehow delay the inevitable. But standing still will not avoid the tide of rising compensation being offered by other carriers in Canada. And god forbid the border opens to pilots to head south. Pilots have choices. And if you are not either choice number 1 or 2 or 3, then you are going to be the one struggling to staff the operation.

[truedude]

Now that the E2 has been issued a Canadian Type Certificate The Raccoon can take deliver so I expect the bleeding at Jazz to really start now.

Has anybody paused to consider the possibility that is ‘the plan’?

Maybe it is a white flag capitulation that gives AC the right to void the CPA?

Both AC and Jazz seem loath to early opening the pilot CBA’s or embracing changes necessary to either legitimately represent the number 1 career option in Canada (AC) or to attract and retain qualified candidates (Jazz).

Maybe the hope is that a recession in 2023 will somehow delay the inevitable. But standing still will not avoid the tide of rising compensation being offered by other carriers in Canada. And god forbid the border opens to pilots to head south. Pilots have choices. And if you are not either choice number 1 or 2 or 3, then you are going to be the one struggling to staff the operation.

I have thought about that. I just dont know to what end? You still need regional feed, and the market has clearly shown you can't staff an airline with our current compensation. And with China opening and relaxing border restrictions in the first week of January, AC won't have much spare capacity to plug holes at the regional capacity, recession or not.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Now that the E2 has been issued a Canadian Type Certificate The Raccoon can take deliver so I expect the bleeding at Jazz to really start now.

Has anybody paused to consider the possibility that is ‘the plan’?

Maybe it is a white flag capitulation that gives AC the right to void the CPA?

Both AC and Jazz seem loath to early opening the pilot CBA’s or embracing changes necessary to either legitimately represent the number 1 career option in Canada (AC) or to attract and retain qualified candidates (Jazz).

Maybe the hope is that a recession in 2023 will somehow delay the inevitable. But standing still will not avoid the tide of rising compensation being offered by other carriers in Canada. And god forbid the border opens to pilots to head south. Pilots have choices. And if you are not either choice number 1 or 2 or 3, then you are going to be the one struggling to staff the operation.

I have thought about that. I just dont know to what end? You still need regional feed, and the market has clearly shown you can't staff an airline with our current compensation. And with China opening and relaxing border restrictions in the first week of January, AC won't have much spare capacity to plug holes at the regional capacity, recession or not.

It's also worth note that Air Ontario/Jazz was, not so many years ago owned by the Deluce Family. They sold it once to AC and then bought it back again when AC was in receivership. There are a lot of dynamics could come into play sooner then later.

[truedude]

Air Ontario was owned by Deluce. Jazz is the collection of all regional carriers, merged after Air Canada purchased Canadian.

Deluce never repurchased Air Ontario during receivership. Not sure where your information comes from.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Air Ontario was owned by Deluce. Jazz is the collection of all regional carriers, merged after Air Canada purchased Canadian.

Deluce never repurchased Air Ontario during receivership. Not sure where your information comes from.

It was my understanding the Deluce Family re-purchased Jazz for a brief period while AC was in receivership and restructuring; I'm happy to be wrong, thank you for the "schooling". The point is the Deluce Family had a previous business "relationship" with AC so it very possible that all Jazz pilots could be wearing a raccoon costume in the not to distant future.

[Fanblade]

Now that the E2 has been issued a Canadian Type Certificate The Raccoon can take deliver so I expect the bleeding at Jazz to really start now.

Has anybody paused to consider the possibility that is ‘the plan’?

Maybe it is a white flag capitulation that gives AC the right to void the CPA?

Both AC and Jazz seem loath to early opening the pilot CBA’s or embracing changes necessary to either legitimately represent the number 1 career option in Canada (AC) or to attract and retain qualified candidates (Jazz).

Maybe the hope is that a recession in 2023 will somehow delay the inevitable. But standing still will not avoid the tide of rising compensation being offered by other carriers in Canada. And god forbid the border opens to pilots to head south. Pilots have choices. And if you are not either choice number 1 or 2 or 3, then you are going to be the one struggling to staff the operation.

I think you are thinking too much.

AC needs the feed it has already had to abandon because of a shortage of pilots at Jazz. More feed capitulation is not in the companies best interest. AC covering Jazz flying only means other mainline routes got dropped. YYC has been particularly cut handing it back to Westjet. Yes there will likely be some upguaging in the future but AC needs the metal first. And even then it’s Canada. We don’t have the density.

Let’s define where the shortage of pilots actually is to understand how AC has been approaching the problem. At Jazz It’s a shortage of DEC or quickly upgradable pilots. They only want to throw money, and as little as possible, at what they see as their problem. They do not want to throw money at the whole group to fix what they perceive as a narrow issue. Your union has decided “Hell No” we all need a raise. AC sees that as problem as they have 6000 pilots to deal with overall and want to keep their cheap pilot labor. They view capitulation to the Jazz pilots as far more expensive than just the cost at Jazz.

AC has attempted the exact same strategy at mainline. They need to attract the right applicants. People who are quickly upgradable. So AC targeted the MOA money at new hire pay and nothing else. ACPA of old went for it but the pilot group saw straight through it. “Hell no” we all need a raise.

It will take time to make this management team capitulate. They loath the idea of overall raises, when they see the issue as only needing dollars targeted at limited areas.

This theme is showing up around our industry in Canada. Who did Sunwing just throw money at? Just the Captains in attempt to retain them. The shortage is impacting airlines differently. But the single constant is management would like to only throw money at the problem. Not everyone.

Our unions job is to say Hell no we all need a raise. The company may have already decided to give up on summer 2023. I would rate this as probable. They waited too long and then got a negative answer from ALPA/ACPA at the last minute. That means for summer 2023 a lack of pilots is locked in and can’t be addressed in time. They likely believe they have plenty of time in thier back pocket planning for summer 2024.

Just wait them out.

As for AC possibly purchasing Jazz? Who cares. It might address a right sizing issue for AC. It might remove a middle man taking a margin. Corporate structure has changed multiple times over the last 4 decades.

None of that changes that AC needs feed. In order for that to happen attract the talent needed at Jazz.

[truedude]

In the end, both Jazz and AC need to understand is that it isn't a matter of "if" they will he paying us what we are asking, but when. The only thing that they will decide is how much they shrink and sacrifice operational stability before they come to that conclusion. It is up to them, but I'm happy to wait until they reach that understanding (and prepared to not give them a single inch until they do). They wanted a 17 yr contract, and I am happy to live up to its terms until every deficiency in that contract is addressed.

[Inverted2]

The management will eventually have to answer to the shareholders when they start losing tens of millions in flight cancelation penalties. It’s almost like they’d rather lose 30 million instead of paying the pilot group 10 million. The place is slowly turning into Air Georgian which is pretty sad.

[Nick678]

Side question - For those who get hired at AC in 2023 who were supposed to be hired in 2022 and are no longer represented by ALPA, is there just cause for a class action lawsuit against Jazz?

Jazz blatantly ignored the contact and those pilot won’t gain anything by improved working conditions at Jazz.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Side question - For those who get hired at AC in 2023 who were supposed to be hired in 2022 and are no longer represented by ALPA, is there just cause for a class action lawsuit against Jazz?

Jazz blatantly ignored the contact and those pilot won’t gain anything by improved working conditions at Jazz.

Please define "suppose to be hired", had AC made you an offer of employment with a date of hire that was subsequently revoked.