TA Passed

[noreasterYHZ]

It should be a huge RED FLAG when a manager is CELEBRATING A PAY RAISE

He should be on here pissed that he had to pay so much

If he thinks it is a good deal = he thinks you are worth more and you took less

That is why...you should have voted NO

[altiplano]

We all have to stop blaming and start lifting each other. This attitude is piss. Do Flair guys deserve better? Fck yeah. But done is done. Guys will learn, it's a young group, you'll see... so in the meantime fly your block, don't extend, push for more. And who's next? WJ? AC? Kick ass! Time for big gains. We all need to support each other and stop pissing on each other.

Blame #vanlife climber scabs and their excuse sellout lickspittles.

[RockSalty]

It should be a huge RED FLAG when a manager is CELEBRATING A PAY RAISE

He should be on here pissed that he had to pay so much

If he thinks it is a good deal = he thinks you are worth more and you took less

That is why...you should have voted NO

I didn't realize being in management automatically makes you automatically not give a single shit about your employees

[Vanguard]

It should be a huge RED FLAG when a manager is CELEBRATING A PAY RAISE

He should be on here pissed that he had to pay so much

If he thinks it is a good deal = he thinks you are worth more and you took less

That is why...you should have voted NO

I didn't realize being in management automatically makes you automatically not give a single shit about your employees

It sure does when your managers go on AvCanada and tell us all they got some big gains and that THEY set the bar for Canadian aviation. What a disgrace and disservice to the whole industry. Canada by far is the biggest disappointment for the amount of skill we all bring to this career and clearly the appetite to continue this trend still exists.

[Joeschumer]

If management is celebrating a TA passing as is what’s going on here you have failed as pilots to stand up for yourselves. This contract took 18 months to negotiate? Jesus christ people wake up, what were you doing. Sunwing negotiated an MOA mid contract in weeks, worth multiple times more than this whole contract and zero concessions. All of you flair pilots that voted yes should be absolutely ashamed, either way you’ll regret it in less than 6 months. You should just join the old guard at ACPA if you want to be a sellout.

[Autobrake]

What some failed to understand is that most flair pilots ACCEPTED to help the company in such difficult times. It’s a 3 yr TA which allows both the company and pilots achieve gains.

wan kers here insulting the pilots and management, clean your hands before you type. What a disgrace!

[Donald]

Their CP is one of the first scabs to come to Swoop when WJ pilots were fighting to get Swoop in control. When your leader is a scab....what else can you expect. And Yes Brian S. I am calling you out for the scab you are.

Is he the dude that lives in a van?

Don't forget he paid to work at Jetsgo as well.

[Jumbo744]

hahaha you guys are so embarrassing to read it's actually funny...oh man I didn't know there was so many "tough" guys in aviation hahahah

For you guys "calling out" tbaylx by posting his real name, can you have the courage to post yours also? or I guess that's what cowards do, stay anonymous when attacking other people. Vanguard, where do you work to criticize Flair so much, I am curious? and how is that any of your business that he choses to live a minimalist lifestyle? you don't make the kind of money he makes. My brother is a 380 training captain at EK and he makes way more that most of us, he lives in a boat, is that embarrassing?

It's funny how you guys would be the first one to pretend to "fight for freedom" but be the first ones to bully anyone that does not agree with you. It's like those people who have a Ukrainian flag sticker on their car and they think they are doing something when most don't even know where Ukraine is. lol

And don't you have something else to do? i post maybe 3 times a month here, how are you here 24/7 attacking and insulting over a matter that does not even concern you? is it because you are so miserable, or maybe you're broke, or is it maybe that your wife can't stand you anymore and you are frustrated?

On the positive side it is great that you guys hate Flair so much and will never try to join us, we really don't want people like you. When I joined Flair I didn't know what to expect, it was in the middle of the pandemic, and I liked it so much I actually resigned from what I considered my dream job. What makes a job great is not only the money, (even tho I am year 1 captain and at 180k this year and will probably make 300k next year, on top of my side business which makes around 200k a year), it is the fact that I am very happy going to work. I like being able to text or whatsapp my chief pilot, training manager, VP of OPS, or even CEO and get an instant reply, no matter what my concern is. I like flying with 20.000h + guys from overseas from whom I learn so much, and you guys will soon be very surprised of what is going on behind the scenes. Most of us like this company, and we want it to succeed. In 3 years, we will see where we stand in the market, and renegotiate as needed. Saying no to this contract would have meant another year of negotiations, much better to take what is offered now, and then renegotiate.

I chose to be happy in life. I have left companies and big ones because I felt I was about to get unhappy. Thanks to this, i have never been unhappy anywhere I worked. If it didn't suit me, I just quit. You have direct control over your life, don't be a coward. If you are not happy at Flair, please resign, go wherever you want. If you don't like the conditions offered at Flair, don't apply. Just don't be a coward by coming to work and complaining all day.

I might read the replies, I might not, but one thing for sure if you guys really want to act tough, please send me a PM, let's meet, let's see what happens.

[Hangry]

I might read the replies, I might not, but one thing for sure if you guys really want to act tough, please send me a PM, let's meet, let's see what happens.

Talk about embarrassing.

[Vanguard]

hahaha you guys are so embarrassing to read it's actually funny...oh man I didn't know there was so many "tough" guys in aviation hahahah

For you guys "calling out" tbaylx by posting his real name, can you have the courage to post yours also? or I guess that's what cowards do, stay anonymous when attacking other people. Vanguard, where do you work to criticize Flair so much, I am curious? and how is that any of your business that he choses to live a minimalist lifestyle? you don't make the kind of money he makes. My brother is a 380 training captain at EK and he makes way more that most of us, he lives in a boat, is that embarrassing?

It's funny how you guys would be the first one to pretend to "fight for freedom" but be the first ones to bully anyone that does not agree with you. It's like those people who have a Ukrainian flag sticker on their car and they think they are doing something when most don't even know where Ukraine is. lol

And don't you have something else to do? i post maybe 3 times a month here, how are you here 24/7 attacking and insulting over a matter that does not even concern you? is it because you are so miserable, or maybe you're broke, or is it maybe that your wife can't stand you anymore and you are frustrated?

On the positive side it is great that you guys hate Flair so much and will never try to join us, we really don't want people like you. When I joined Flair I didn't know what to expect, it was in the middle of the pandemic, and I liked it so much I actually resigned from what I considered my dream job. What makes a job great is not only the money, (even tho I am year 1 captain and at 180k this year and will probably make 300k next year, on top of my side business which makes around 200k a year), it is the fact that I am very happy going to work. I like being able to text or whatsapp my chief pilot, training manager, VP of OPS, or even CEO and get an instant reply, no matter what my concern is. I like flying with 20.000h + guys from overseas from whom I learn so much, and you guys will soon be very surprised of what is going on behind the scenes. Most of us like this company, and we want it to succeed. In 3 years, we will see where we stand in the market, and renegotiate as needed. Saying no to this contract would have meant another year of negotiations, much better to take what is offered now, and then renegotiate.

I chose to be happy in life. I have left companies and big ones because I felt I was about to get unhappy. Thanks to this, i have never been unhappy anywhere I worked. If it didn't suit me, I just quit. You have direct control over your life, don't be a coward. If you are not happy at Flair, please resign, go wherever you want. If you don't like the conditions offered at Flair, don't apply. Just don't be a coward by coming to work and complaining all day.

I might read the replies, I might not, but one thing for sure if you guys really want to act tough, please send me a PM, let's meet, let's see what happens.

Oh tough guy, lets meet. LOL.

Believe me, I would never join your ranks. I have no desire or need and if that was the case I would quit aviation in its entirety or sell my soul to go to the US.

You all have some audacity to defend yourselves. I made 150k+ this year as a WJ FO. I know FOs here that cross 200k but they are OT whores. My total flying hours sits at less than 500. I worked an average of 8-12 days enjoying some great single day flying, nice layovers down south working with some awesome guys n gals. Guys with my experience and hours made 3x as much in the states sitting right seat. A guy like me has actually way less to complain about and I haven't been on AvCanada for years. If you feel I am attacking Flair and their pilots its because it actually pisses me off when we finally have our advantage -- you guys go and set the bar so low for everyone its embarrassing. What also annoys me is that none of you actually have an idea what is actually going on this industry ...so you sit there fat dumb and happy working your ass off as a 737 CA making 180k CAD which is 131,867.10 United States Dollar. EMBARRASING when a EMB145 FO makes more than you. You will sadly feel it when the next few contracts get negotiated for other airlines.

TELL THAT TO ANY US PILOT and see how much of a laughing stock you are. I can show you pay stubs from Alaska pilots and JetBlue pilots who fly less than all of us and make 360+460k+ US. Before you attack me about the US market and educate me about the difference, dont bother.

I get we aren't the US bud but when you say proudly you made 180k as a 737 Captain at Flair its an embarrassment because that wasn't even your base salary. It was OT, working 80hr blocks and I'm going to presume 16 days. I get you have loyalty for the airline picking you up during the pandemic however some of you have sunk so low and become slaves. WJ Captains and Sunwing CA have been making over 260k-350k+ for many years. Sure that sounds good but it is negotiating year in what I know for a fact is the busiest hiring spree in Canadian aviation.

AC is hiring 2000 pilots for 2026. WJ is hiring alone 400+ FOs. Swoop needs another 160+. Encore needs another 180+. Sunwing need 150+ and even tried FLV again. I'm pretty sure Flair needs 100+.

I also assume you make 180k and can't afford to buy a home in Toronto and justify living in a bus or a boat?!

That example of the EK captain living on a boat doesn't even apply. I know a lot more than you think about EK and as nice as you think it is - you clearly have no idea about that part of the world.
Also those overseas pilots you talk about are the scabs that spent their years outside of Canada and when they came running home, they accepted the lowest recorded wages and are scabs in all our books. When WJ pilots were fighting Swoop wages, these guys took contracts to get the airline off the ground. Your CP is a true scab and it is what it is.

We all want our companies to succeed. At the end of the day that is not the issue. Pilot wages don't make or break the airlines. Proper compensation is something you deserve with all the experience you bring. I think this industry, sad as it so say it and many of us now know it will require more aircraft to go off the runway to appreciate that.

What is sad to me is that our pilots are still sleeping in this industry. So tough guy, meet or no meet. It doesn't change anything when you can't see the bigger picture on how this affects all of us.




You all wasted 18 months coming up with this shit deal for your pilots. This could've been done in 18 days. What a true disappointment. I feel for your FOs the most who were truly misrepresented. The carrot of quick upgrades doesn't mean they don't deserve a proper starting wage.

[Flairpilot]

Man you guys are so out of touch to reality like its not even funny. Can someone post that pay-scale picture that encompasses all airlines?

Pay levels are within single-digit percentage of Air Canada's narrow body scale. -- DO YOU REALIZE THAT AC PAY SCALES ARE NOT INDUSTRY STANDARD?! Do you honestly not have friends at both AC/WJ to tell you how much they actually make? I know captains that top 360k at WJ working 10-12 days a month. You're so out of touch its not even funny.


Your whole message reeks of management thanking their peasants. If that is how you really feel I am sorry I do think you are the scum group for our next decade...if Flair survives that long. Brutal. I am so sorry this is harsh but it is not far from the truth. You all really have a low bar.
[/quote]

Good grief man….I feel sorry for pilots that have to fly with you… Here’s why. Flying with a ranting fellow is exhausting, more so even when said ranting guy doesn’t even work at the company.

Overall, we’re fairly happy with the result as shown by the yes vote. Looking at where we were vs where we are, gains were made with minor concessions. And this satisfaction allows us the position of saying we really don’t give a sh*t what someone who doesn’t work here says. However, we will have the class and decorum to withhold your sort of ranting when WJA and AC are negotiating their TA’s. Only prudent, as we don’t work there.

So close your mouth, only it open it long enough to wash down your prescribed Valium with that shot of bottom shelf Johnny Walker and relax….

[Vanguard]

Good grief man….I feel sorry for pilots that have to fly with you… Here’s why. Flying with a ranting fellow is exhausting, more so even when said ranting guy doesn’t even work at the company.

Overall, we’re fairly happy with the result as shown by the yes vote. Looking at where we were vs where we are, gains were made with minor concessions. And this satisfaction allows us the position of saying we really don’t give a sh*t what someone who doesn’t work here says. However, we will have the class and decorum to withhold your sort of ranting when WJA and AC are negotiating their TA’s. Only prudent, as we don’t work there.

So close your mouth, only it open it long enough to wash down your prescribed Valium with that shot of bottom shelf Johnny Walker and relax….

The truth hurts. I am sorry yet not sorry. 65% pass with 88% participation doesn't mean your group was happy. Your skippers and management clearly seem happy.

Enjoy being the bottom of our industry for next many years. I can't wait to see the posts complaining and attrition from Flair when other airlines fix their stuff and the mass hiring takes your ranks.

[CPU2000]

You know is better than having a "side gig" as a pilot?

Not having a side gig because you make more than enough in your career

You know how idiotic it is to say this doesn't affect every pilot in Canada?

Every contract change affects every other pilot group. It sets the bar for future negotiations

You have done damage to this profession. Full stop

[rando]

Jazz pilots flying the dash/rj are about to get paid more than flair pilots. Just give it another month or two. And good for them they deserve a competitive market wage that compares with the competition on the routes they fly.

[twa22]

Great job guys. Way to keep the spark going that was started by AC, and would have continued to gain momentum.

Management at every airline who were watching the signals of this negotiation very closely can breathe a collective sigh of relief.

Well done, on behalf of all pilot groups down the pipe who are approaching subsequent negotiations, we all thank you. Nothing like throwing out a golden gift of leverage at the best possible time.
Here you have a company who intends on massive, quick expansion, who dealt below average pay in a country who already has below average pay on the global scale, in the midst of a pilot shortage, and you managed to increase to.... Average, but with concessions.

Enjoy working the extra hours.

It was a step in the right direction but only on one foot, while we're miles away from everyone else. Why on earth did you take block concessions?

Where's the like button for this...

Flair pilots, how do you not see this? How can you say you got a raise when you will be working more? Maybe CA's got a raise, but FO's did not get a raise when you consider inflation just on it's own.

And no, dangling the 2 year upgrade carrot is not a reason to excuse the abysmal FO raise. What an abysmal contract, and what an embarrassment for all of us.

Clearly like altiplano said, we all need to be united as a group, irrespective of our uniform, but with so many seemgily drinking the coolaid, oh man...

[Vanguard]

Sunwing got this below just recently.

It is supposed to be WJ + 2.5%... spend some time to compare yours. They also have better working conditions than you.
THEY ARENT EVEN NEGOTIATING. THIS WAS A MOA not a TA.

WAKE UP! 18 months for what Sunwing pulled in matter of 4-6week! and this effectively beats your TA

If you need more proof. Look at the recent Transat pay scale. They moved their WB pay scale to NB. They are currently leading even against AC/WJ. I can't believe they have you thinking you are setting the bar for Canadian aviation. I am actually excited to see what WJ accomplishes. Our guys are way more militant and united. AC will follow suit to what WJ accomplishes and beat that. Time will tell and I won't hide then so don't worry. If I'm wrong I'll own up to it too.

[flying4dollars]

The personal attacks here are downright embarrassing and needs to stop. Grow up and try discussing this in a more civilized fashion and maybe act like the professionals you all claim to be. You'd be surprised at how much more can be accomplished when you take that avenue over the status quo on this thread.

[tbaylx]

Sunwing got this below just recently.

It is supposed to be WJ + 2.5%... spend some time to compare yours. They also have better working conditions than you.
THEY ARENT EVEN NEGOTIATING. THIS WAS A MOA not a TA.

WAKE UP! 18 months for what Sunwing pulled in matter of 4-6week! and this effectively beats your TA

If you need more proof. Look at the recent Transat pay scale. They moved their WB pay scale to NB. They are currently leading even against AC/WJ. I can't believe they have you thinking you are setting the bar for Canadian aviation. I am actually excited to see what WJ accomplishes. Our guys are way more militant and united. AC will follow suit to what WJ accomplishes and beat that. Time will tell and I won't hide then so don't worry. If I'm wrong I'll own up to it too.

Ok let's do the comparison then.

1. Based on MMG flying Flair Captains are higher paid than SWG captains. Based on the hourly rate alone SWG Captains are about 3-9% higher paid.
2. Year 1&2 FO's at Flair are higher paid.
3. Flair pilots get 1-2 more days off guaranteed per month than an SWG pilot. Sunwing has grey days, Flair does not.
4. Flair RRSP match is higher than Sunwings
5. Flair upgrade times are 6 months or DEC for those qualified. Sunwing upgrade times are 2+ years and they just bypassed 40 of their qualified FO's. If they merge with Westjet then they'll be just like you, looking at 10+ years to upgrade if they're lucky.
6. Flair gets a significantly higher per diem based on TAFB (unless a SWG pilot is on deployment perdiem which is significantly higher)
7. Flair pilots receive a $30K or $50K retention bonus which is equivalent to a $10K per year premium for FO's and $17K per year for captain premium. Sunwing does not.

Most other contractual items are comparable. Other than year 3+ FO pay and a roughly 5% captain hourly rate premium on average which is further reduced to about even based on the retention bonus at Flair the SWG contract is either inferior or equal to Flairs.

Flair also has more permanent bases, greater expansion, and doesn't have a looming merger and associated seniority issues.

Best of luck to you in your negotiations at Westjet. Your MEC reps negotiating are certainly using the Flair contract to make the case for mainline pay parity at Swoop. Let's see if they can achieve the 35% compensation increase that Flair's MEC managed. By the time you're done, Flair's contract will be just about ready to expire and I'm sure the second Flair contract terms will continue to build on that.

[Tdicommuter]

Just a quick question about Swoop pay rates that you are quoting... Any idea how or why a sub par conditions happened at swoop?

Listen you can spin yarn all you want but you took sick days away, your F/O scale is not enough, and you increased how much people need to work. It's selfish for people to have voted yes because time is something that matters that isn't in a contract. The guy hired 2 years from now will not get the benefit of those hired today and effectively the pilot group said who cares about those guys. It's selfish and the reason we lag while other pilot groups excel.

I really hoped people thought collectively rather than individually but time will tell how this works out. Best of luck out there people Merry Christmas and fly safe.

[nohojob]

Just a couple things regarding swg and flair comparaison.
Yes, swg bypassed 40 fos last Spring but they're currently offering the upgrade to a lot of those. (no more tfw).
Yes, there are grey days at swg but the company can't draft anymore on grey days, so the only difference with a gdo is the pay rate when you accept an assignement.

[tbaylx]

Just a quick question about Swoop pay rates that you are quoting... Any idea how or why a sub par conditions happened at swoop?

Listen you can spin yarn all you want but you took sick days away, your F/O scale is not enough, and you increased how much people need to work. It's selfish for people to have voted yes because time is something that matters that isn't in a contract. The guy hired 2 years from now will not get the benefit of those hired today and effectively the pilot group said who cares about those guys. It's selfish and the reason we lag while other pilot groups excel.

I really hoped people thought collectively rather than individually but time will tell how this works out. Best of luck out there people Merry Christmas and fly safe.

Swoop subpar conditions are clearly my fault, obviously. Just, ask the internet, and they'll tell you. Probably the first 4 years flat pay scale at AC too.

Moving on from veiled innuendo, the sick days were not reduced.

Under the old contract, there were 12 days per year including days used to take care of sick family members. Under the new contract due to changes in the CLC we split personal days out and awarded 15 days total, of which 13 are paid. An increase of 1 day paid leave and 2 unpaid leave per year.

A pilot hired 2 years from now will be subject to this contract for all of 6 months after completion of training before it expires and at the current time, still be paid one of the best starting FO pay in the industry. Besides we'll all be hiring cadets by then if the current pilot shortage continues.

[MontrealCanucks]

Moving on from veiled innuendo, the sick days were not reduced

Under the old contract, there were 12 days per year including days used to take care of sick family members. Under the new contract due to changes in the CLC we split personal days out and awarded 15 days total, of which 13 are paid. An increase of 1 day paid leave and 2 unpaid leave per year.

A pilot hired 2 years from now will be subject to this contract for all of 6 months after completion of training before it expires and at the current time, still be paid one of the best starting FO pay in the industry. Besides we'll all be hiring cadets by then if the current pilot shortage continues.

Ok so if the group voted No:

12 paid sick days + 3 Federally mandated paid personal days = 15 paid days

Now with a Yes:

10 + 3 = 13 paid days

FYI 15 > 13

Hopefully you're better at electrical wiring your van than basic math

[Joeschumer]

Sunwing got this below just recently.

It is supposed to be WJ + 2.5%... spend some time to compare yours. They also have better working conditions than you.
THEY ARENT EVEN NEGOTIATING. THIS WAS A MOA not a TA.

WAKE UP! 18 months for what Sunwing pulled in matter of 4-6week! and this effectively beats your TA

If you need more proof. Look at the recent Transat pay scale. They moved their WB pay scale to NB. They are currently leading even against AC/WJ. I can't believe they have you thinking you are setting the bar for Canadian aviation. I am actually excited to see what WJ accomplishes. Our guys are way more militant and united. AC will follow suit to what WJ accomplishes and beat that. Time will tell and I won't hide then so don't worry. If I'm wrong I'll own up to it too.

Ok let's do the comparison then.

1. Based on MMG flying Flair Captains are higher paid than SWG captains. Based on the hourly rate alone SWG Captains are about 3-9% higher paid.
2. Year 1&2 FO's at Flair are higher paid.
3. Flair pilots get 1-2 more days off guaranteed per month than an SWG pilot. Sunwing has grey days, Flair does not.
4. Flair RRSP match is higher than Sunwings
5. Flair upgrade times are 6 months or DEC for those qualified. Sunwing upgrade times are 2+ years and they just bypassed 40 of their qualified FO's. If they merge with Westjet then they'll be just like you, looking at 10+ years to upgrade if they're lucky.
6. Flair gets a significantly higher per diem based on TAFB (unless a SWG pilot is on deployment perdiem which is significantly higher)
7. Flair pilots receive a $30K or $50K retention bonus which is equivalent to a $10K per year premium for FO's and $17K per year for captain premium. Sunwing does not.

Most other contractual items are comparable. Other than year 3+ FO pay and a roughly 5% captain hourly rate premium on average which is further reduced to about even based on the retention bonus at Flair the SWG contract is either inferior or equal to Flairs.

Flair also has more permanent bases, greater expansion, and doesn't have a looming merger and associated seniority issues.

Best of luck to you in your negotiations at Westjet. Your MEC reps negotiating are certainly using the Flair contract to make the case for mainline pay parity at Swoop. Let's see if they can achieve the 35% compensation increase that Flair's MEC managed. By the time you're done, Flair's contract will be just about ready to expire and I'm sure the second Flair contract terms will continue to build on that.

Ok let’s get these correct first.

1. Correct. However, the OT gate is 82 this year 80 next year…
Besides who the hell wants to work 85 hrs every month? That’s too much work.
2. Barely. In year 2 I’ll guarantee you year 2 FO will make more at SWG because of the significantly higher hourly. In fact I’ll bet you every same year comparison will have a higher YTD than Flair.
3. Incorrect. Max 16 days worked, there are no grey days. (TFFD)
4. Incorrect. I don’t think you even looked. SWG is 7% matching after 8 years. Flair is 20 years! 8 years equivalent at flair would be 4%
5. Incorrect. Upgrade time < 1 year, bypass issue being resolved, dozens of upgrades for bid. Westjet is < 7 years currently.
6. Incorrect. Perdiems at SWG are $5/hr CAD domestic (layover only, hot meals provided onboard), variable international destinations but higher than domestic. A 2 day pairing at Sunwing can bring in $200-400 perdiems depending on destination.
7. Correct.
8. SWGs contract is far superior in QOL, credit protection, trainer pay, reserve rules there is no comparing. Flairs QOL in their contract is almost non existent. (Scheduling, credit protection HUGE, rest periods, other benefits) it’s all public. I’m sure you glossed all that over but it’s beyond huge.

There really isn’t much to compare here, you guys got swindled and that’s that. Eyes on WJ next.

[nohojob]

also for swg qol, typically you work about 7-8 days a month unless you want OT.

[eurotrash]

tbaylx,

Since we are blessed to have your presence here...

Tell us straight up how many pilot jobs were ELIMINATED thanks to concessions in hours worked in this MOA?