TA Passed

[co-joe]

What a shame this TA passed. Too bad Sunwing's LOU wasn't negotiated a bit sooner and that might have given the Flair pilots some real perspective on where the industry is at right now...

Sunwing's LOU was negotiated BECAUSE of Flair pilots. How can you people not see this? You think that day's after Flair's new TA was announced Sunwing just happened to decide to pay 1% more than Flair did out of the kindness of their hearts?

[Gameon]

Vanguard

Public mud slinging and personal attacks show your true character sadly. Make your point and have your opinions but it's totally offside. We all have the same goals and are doing our best to lift us all towards a better future. Canadian aviation is marked with low wages and sub standard conditions for many years. At the top of the food chain, AC signed a lengthy 10 year deal which is finally due for renewal soon. We only have one national carrier and the others can really only be lifted as a result of their gains. The senior pilots and the union capitulated to sign away the junior pilots almost 10 years ago on 4 years of flat pay. How you like that little gem? WJ has been around for over 26 years now. Does your pilot contract reflect 26 years in business? Didn't think so...

Speaking of knowing your history - the history of WJ and Flair are similar. Gritty little airlines trying to find a their way and gain traction in a tough market. WJ started in '96 with many unemployed pilots from back east, those that couldn't get into AC and 737 bush pilots. Not exactly the best of the best I knew one of them in the top 10. Older bush pilot with not a clue how this little airline would work out. They battled together formed a great culture and had many years of success. The new Flair effectively started at the beginning of 2021 after having 3 jets and now has close to 20 I believe and still in expansion mode. This is WJ in about 1999 then. Its a new company and just now rapidly expanding and gaining more exposure in the marketplace. I would imagine they are still operating at a loss.

It's a short term 3 year ALPA deal and will be up for a renewal after WJ and AC renew their contracts which is well timed. The money obviously went into the Capts as they were vastly unpaid and deemed more critical to the airlines expansion. The FOs are still paid competitively ( yes albeit still underpaid ) for the first few years. Most now are very inexperienced and many are really learning how to fly jets for the first time. The growth is there to move into the left seat and expand with the airline. Just like WJ in the late 1990's. And I don't have to remind you how WJ paid back then..... going public was the ONLY way those pilots made big money. So maybe you should spend more time on your own WJ site and or get involved instead of spitting your hate and vitriol all over this Flair message board... We are all hoping the WJ and AC contracts will lift everyone towards a better future. "You have control"...

[wyndham]

What a shame this TA passed. Too bad Sunwing's LOU wasn't negotiated a bit sooner and that might have given the Flair pilots some real perspective on where the industry is at right now...

Sunwing's LOU was negotiated BECAUSE of Flair pilots. How can you people not see this? You think that day's after Flair's new TA was announced Sunwing just happened to decide to pay 1% more than Flair did out of the kindness of their hearts?

Sunwings LOU had to do with WestJet purchase and the resulting bargaining in bad faith labour complaint, and then when the TFWs were shut down, the company was forced to come to the table the following week to save their understaffed winter. Flair didn't enter into it. I would suggest you look at the new pay scales, its way more than 1%, it's 2.5% more than WestJet's current scale.

Regardless, Flair is now the hardest working and lowest paid 737 pilots in Canada, Sunwing is the highest, for now. Even if it seems like a good TA at the moment, you've got 3 years for the realization to set in, which it will.

[rudder]

Regardless, Flair is now the hardest working and lowest paid 737 pilots in Canada, Sunwing is the highest, for now. Even if it seems like a good TA at the moment, you've got 3 years for the realization to set in, which it will.

That pretty well sums it up.

[CPU2000]

Vanguard

Public mud slinging and personal attacks show your true character sadly. Make your point and have your opinions but it's totally offside. We all have the same goals and are doing our best to lift us all towards a better future. Canadian aviation is marked with low wages and sub standard conditions for many years. At the top of the food chain, AC signed a lengthy 10 year deal which is finally due for renewal soon. We only have one national carrier and the others can really only be lifted as a result of their gains. The senior pilots and the union capitulated to sign away the junior pilots almost 10 years ago on 4 years of flat pay. How you like that little gem? WJ has been around for over 26 years now. Does your pilot contract reflect 26 years in business? Didn't think so...

Speaking of knowing your history - the history of WJ and Flair are similar. Gritty little airlines trying to find a their way and gain traction in a tough market. WJ started in '96 with many unemployed pilots from back east, those that couldn't get into AC and 737 bush pilots. Not exactly the best of the best I knew one of them in the top 10. Older bush pilot with not a clue how this little airline would work out. They battled together formed a great culture and had many years of success. The new Flair effectively started at the beginning of 2021 after having 3 jets and now has close to 20 I believe and still in expansion mode. This is WJ in about 1999 then. Its a new company and just now rapidly expanding and gaining more exposure in the marketplace. I would imagine they are still operating at a loss.

It's a short term 3 year ALPA deal and will be up for a renewal after WJ and AC renew their contracts which is well timed. The money obviously went into the Capts as they were vastly unpaid and deemed more critical to the airlines expansion. The FOs are still paid competitively ( yes albeit still underpaid ) for the first few years. Most now are very inexperienced and many are really learning how to fly jets for the first time. The growth is there to move into the left seat and expand with the airline. Just like WJ in the late 1990's. And I don't have to remind you how WJ paid back then..... going public was the ONLY way those pilots made big money. So maybe you should spend more time on your own WJ site and or get involved instead of spitting your hate and vitriol all over this Flair message board... We are all hoping the WJ and AC contracts will lift everyone towards a better future. "You have control"...

New Entrants rationalizing their below industry pay & concessions

It's called the "Race to the Bottom"

During a historic labour shortage -

[cdnavater]

In recognition of Flair pilots' contributions and efforts through a challenging summer, today we announced a $50 000 (Capt) and $30 000 (FO) retention bonus payable to all current pilots after 36 months.

This is also applicable to all pilots hired before December 31st 2022
I asked this previously with no answer, is this still the case?
If not, why is the salesman including it in the pay calculation?

[eurotrash]

In recognition of Flair pilots' contributions and efforts through a challenging summer, today we announced a $50 000 (Capt) and $30 000 (FO) retention bonus payable to all current pilots after 36 months.

This is also applicable to all pilots hired before December 31st 2022
I asked this previously with no answer, is this still the case?
If not, why is the salesman including it in the pay calculation?

Because it is cheaper provide TEMPORARY gains for PERMANENT concessions

I'm still waiting for a response from tbaylx below for the permanent loss of jobs:

tbaylx,

Since we are blessed to have your presence here...

Tell us straight up how many pilot jobs were ELIMINATED thanks to concessions in hours worked in this MOA?

[cdnavater]

In recognition of Flair pilots' contributions and efforts through a challenging summer, today we announced a $50 000 (Capt) and $30 000 (FO) retention bonus payable to all current pilots after 36 months.

This is also applicable to all pilots hired before December 31st 2022
I asked this previously with no answer, is this still the case?
If not, why is the salesman including it in the pay calculation?

Because it is cheaper provide TEMPORARY gains for PERMANENT concessions

I'm still waiting for a response from tbaylx below for the permanent loss of jobs:

tbaylx,

Since we are blessed to have your presence here...

Tell us straight up how many pilot jobs were ELIMINATED thanks to concessions in hours worked in this MOA?

The math on that is pretty straight forward, every 17 pilots eliminates 1, 17 pilots working an extra 5 credits equals one full block per month.

[elite]

Ostensibly some WestJet pilots are very critical of Flair’s contract as an example of “lowering the standard”. This doesn’t seem to be the case as there is a sizeable increase and also it would be expecting too much from a new ULCC to better the WOWCON of WestJet in its first real contract, not to mention the flag carrier Air Canada that has four long years of flat pay! Looking at it objectively, there’d be no justification for the Flair board to go so high above even the flag carrier that has been around for over a century! Could it have been better and more generous? Sure. But it would be unreasonable expectation. Especially if they have an improvement clause based on other contracts, it would be good. Moreover, it is good that they achieved a negotiated contract again, something that WestJet for instance has not done yet.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Also boys if anyone wants DEC at Porter lmk. Word is they will beat Flair’s contract with heavy bonuses as they are desperate for pilots. Peace

You gonna split the $7500 with everyone else?

[the_new_guy]

Alright so here goes nothing..

First of all, there's absolutely no point attacking someone on a personal level. At all. Management or line pilot, doesn't matter. You can't attack a guy who is doing his job, you can certainly be of completely opposite opinions but remaining just a little professional goes a lot farther.

That being said, when it comes to the new contract at flair, in my honest opinion it is far from a good deal. But here's how it went:

1) 95 pilots actually employed by the company were working for flair in early summer '21. Those pilots were dealt the best hand. They were offered retro pay and 7000 shares each. In clear terms when it comes to negotiating, they were bought out for a price no one knows. Those shares could be worth 70$ or 7000$.

2) Captains that have spent the last year working here were very tempted to take the deal because of retro pay. It meant to them a good juicy check on top of better pay and they just went for it. A good majority of them that is.

3) Some young captains actually were very vocal in their disbelief at how bad the contract was. The fact that concessions were made didn't make any sense and increase in salary wasn't enough for the timing in the market where everyone else will make more in a year or two.

4) I would hope and believe that all or just about all FOs voted against it.

So how did it come to pass? Like my point 1 and 2 stated, a good number of guys voted because they saw sort term gains. But really, they were sold or bullied to vote yes. Here's the reality: MEC is composed of all (with maybe one exception) old timers at the company. Guys who've been with flair for years. The new contract reflects that to the last detail. It is incredibly one sided. Truth is without changing the situation in MEC, it would always have been bad. It should be noted that obviously this is my own opinion as there is 65% of the pilots that voted yes.

So where does that go from here? Every other company out there is going to get better contracts out, better pay and conditions. Better scope when applicable and/or better protection.

What is lacking in this new contract? Just about everything. Salaries are just ok on the left side, and on the right they should have had a larger increase. The MMG was already high at 80, now it is 85. Block window is way up there if scheduling ever rosters at 92 for a couple of months the pilots in the bottom half of seniority will see their life turn to shit. The commuting policy is a joke, requiring 2 options out of the 4 or 5 listed to then protect the pilots. Every single options listed requires 2 flights or 2 ways of getting to your base to report for duty. This means you need 4 options to get there or else you're not protected. Might as well say you need to be there 2 full days before your duty starts, which for a commuter is just unrealistic if he intends to spend a little time home between days of work. There are very marginal gains on pension plan/savings. And no gains on insurance. Scheduling in its entirety is a negative for this contract, seeing no decrease in capped days of work, increase in hours, more flexibility for the company, no increase in report time for reserve holders, no long call reserve added, and I could go on and on and on.

The bottom line is this contract isn't anywhere close to where it should have been. It was negotiated by company men, who won't see the impact on scheduling concessions because they are up the list, and they made sure to scare a lot of the membership that everything could be clawed back. And sure it could have been, but then everyone else would start seeing their MOA and LOU and BA get better and flair would have had no choice but to follow. With talks about the new TA being very heated within flair pilots, there even was instances of... Let's say bullying because that is the closest thing that comes to mind.

So here you have it. It was definitely more political than it should have been. Incredibly one sided. That is not to say that captains didn't vote against the new TA, many did. But for a lot of them the gains were enough and they started thinking about that big check coming in with retro pay. Lots of them got shares, and to some that meant a lot. Funny enough we don't know what that means money-wise. But the end result is as you know it now.

2 years from now the pilot group will go back to the table, this time around hopefully with new reps.

Insulting anyone here won't change the facts, and saying the flair pilots are idiots isn't justified. I'm one of them, I voted no but here we are. I'm not going to get into a fight with anyone here, I explained to the best I could how things went, and hats off to management for pulling this one, they did their job the union reps didn't (or couldn't do better). I hope the next one will reflect the severity of the shortage, and I hope all other pilot groups in Canada get twice our pay and better benefits.

Cheers

[co-joe]

t_n_g

I agree with a lot of your opinions, disagree with a few but I respect your calm clear perspective, it's rather refreshing. I personally know all the negotiating committee and I believe they offered us this TA with the intention of fixing the biggest problems with the Unifor CBA, namely loop holes you could drive a truck through, and left seat remuneration. As a flight instructor 20 years ago I learned that if you try to fix all of your student's problems at once, you crush their spirit and they can quit trying, the key is to tell them the one thing that if corrected would make the most significant difference to their training, and file the rest away for later, write it in their PTR and work on it once the big hurdles are done.

I also believe they gave the company the tools it needs to turn a decent profit over the next three years, while doubling the fleet size. I'm ok working a bit harder for a few years to build a strong foundation. I believe we are on the right track for what is essentially a 3 year old business model in Canada, and by the end of this short CBA I believe we will be looking well past F50, at something more like F75 or F100. I believe we will have a publicly traded company, with a healthy profit margin, and will be in a great position to make improvements to the areas that are lacking.

I also believe we raised the ULLC bar, and clearly Sunwing's reaction, Lynx's pledge to match or beat our pay, Encore's pay raise MOA, WJ's upcoming negotiations, and lastly AC's upcoming bargaining will show we were the catalyst to raising WAWCON for all 705 pilots in this country. Imagine this little upstart doing that in 3 short years.

[Apestogetherstrong]

Be prepared for lots of FO’s leaving. Seen a few of them interviewing for Porter which boggles my mind. Lots going to AT and a few waiting for a call at AC. By summer there’s going to be a new MOA at Flair in order to stop FO’ss from leaving. At that point even WJ’s new contract would like shiny for the new FO.
so if you guys still want to stop it from being a revolving door increase the FO salary to 89k. Do it before you start cancelling flights due to lack of crews

[Apestogetherstrong]

A lot of the management guys hate me but I stand for all pilots in Canada and want improved working conditions And increased wages across the board.

I want us to be paid at least 80% of what pilots in US make by 2024. I have connections in all companies especially in the hiring department. Im working with 1 in Flair as well and guys let me tell you hiring is going to become a bottleneck for the success of all companies except AC of course.

We want $89k in the upcoming MOA Flair

[AstroPants]

We want $89k in the upcoming MOA Flair

If nothing else, gotta give you credit for staying on brand/message with your apparent favorite number.

[mel gibson]

A lot of the management guys hate me but I stand for all pilots in Canada and want improved working conditions And increased wages across the board.

I want us to be paid at least 80% of what pilots in US make by 2024. I have connections in all companies especially in the hiring department. Im working with 1 in Flair as well and guys let me tell you hiring is going to become a bottleneck for the success of all companies except AC of course.

We want $89k in the upcoming MOA Flair

Flair is starting to recruit pilots from South Africa and another country I believe.It is bank rolled by a drug dealer in Miami, and barely made it through the foreign ownership limit. This company is a cancer to Canadian aviation. Period.

[Arnie Pye]

Be prepared for lots of FO’s leaving. Seen a few of them interviewing for Porter which boggles my mind. Lots going to AT and a few waiting for a call at AC. By summer there’s going to be a new MOA at Flair in order to stop FO’ss from leaving. At that point even WJ’s new contract would like shiny for the new FO.
so if you guys still want to stop it from being a revolving door increase the FO salary to 89k. Do it before you start cancelling flights due to lack of crews

The last few FO's I've flown with have all had start dates at AC later in the month or into February. I would guess that they all got hired just prior to the announcement of the TA but none of them indicated that back pay, or the retention bonus would be sufficient to have them use Flair's Resignation Reconsideration policy. They certainly aren't sticking around for the new, imminent, soon to be launched, right around the corner, travel plan announced last April.

It will be interesting to see how the new contract manages to attract and retain pilots. At least now there is certainty moving forward. I get the feeling that no amount of foreign pilots would be able to keep up with churn if 2-3 ground schools at AC or WS all came from Flair.

Just wait until the overseas hiring ramps up. It won't just be FO's looking at other opportunities. I know I'm getting a little tired of watching 50% of my earned income going to taxes again.

[Blue Bin]

I would guess that they all got hired just prior to the announcement of the TA but none of them indicated that back pay, or the retention bonus would be sufficient to have them use Flair's Resignation Reconsideration policy.

Resignation Reconsideration policy?

[Tbayer2021]

They have a resignation reconsideration policy? Omg this is amazing. According to the Flair die hards here they don't have a retention problem though lol

[flying4dollars]

Why $89k and not $90k?

[tbaylx]

We do have a "resignation reconsideration policy" We have had pilots who resigned and went to Air Canada, Sunwing and Emirates and chose to return shortly after leaving. We provide a cooling-off period for those pilots who wish to reconsider.

Since last summer we are seeing a resignation rate of an average of about 3-4 piltos per month. Almost all to Air Canada, 1 to Westjet group, and 1 to Porter. That is a percentage that we can tolerate. We expect that to increase slightly in 2023 as Air Canada ramps up hiring or Porter opens up Eastern bases before we do, and we wish those who choose to pursue employment elsewhere the best of luck with their future endeavors.

We continue to believe that a new hire coming to Flair will have a competitive 10-year total compensation while enjoying a better lifestyle and career opportunities than they would at other carriers. If a pilot believes that Flair is not a good fit for them and that our current compensation, lifestyle, and career opportunities are better elsewhere then that is their prerogative to pursue other options. It's a good time to be a pilot with plenty of options to find what suits you best.

In about 2 and a half years we will have another open contract where we will evaluate market conditions and continue to ensure that our pilots are competitively paid compared to peers in Canada and retain a good work/lifestyle balance.

[Blue Bin]

We do have a "resignation reconsideration policy" We have had pilots who resigned and went to Air Canada, Sunwing and Emirates and chose to return shortly after leaving. We provide a cooling-off period for those pilots who wish to reconsider.

Since last summer we are seeing a resignation rate of an average of about 3-4 piltos per month. Almost all to Air Canada, 1 to Westjet group, and 1 to Porter. That is a percentage that we can tolerate. We expect that to increase slightly in 2023 as Air Canada ramps up hiring or Porter opens up Eastern bases before we do, and we wish those who choose to pursue employment elsewhere the best of luck with their future endeavors.

We continue to believe that a new hire coming to Flair will have a competitive 10-year total compensation while enjoying a better lifestyle and career opportunities than they would at other carriers. If a pilot believes that Flair is not a good fit for them and that our current compensation, lifestyle, and career opportunities are better elsewhere then that is their prerogative to pursue other options. It's a good time to be a pilot with plenty of options to find what suits you best.

In about 2 and a half years we will have another open contract where we will evaluate market conditions and continue to ensure that our pilots are competitively paid compared to peers in Canada and retain a good work/lifestyle balance.

Interesting.

How is RRP administered? Through the "Personal Leave of Absence" section in the CA, or is there an LOU addressing this specific policy?

Are all pilots eligible, or is it case by case?

Thanks

[tbaylx]

We do have a "resignation reconsideration policy" We have had pilots who resigned and went to Air Canada, Sunwing and Emirates and chose to return shortly after leaving. We provide a cooling-off period for those pilots who wish to reconsider.

Since last summer we are seeing a resignation rate of an average of about 3-4 piltos per month. Almost all to Air Canada, 1 to Westjet group, and 1 to Porter. That is a percentage that we can tolerate. We expect that to increase slightly in 2023 as Air Canada ramps up hiring or Porter opens up Eastern bases before we do, and we wish those who choose to pursue employment elsewhere the best of luck with their future endeavors.

We continue to believe that a new hire coming to Flair will have a competitive 10-year total compensation while enjoying a better lifestyle and career opportunities than they would at other carriers. If a pilot believes that Flair is not a good fit for them and that our current compensation, lifestyle, and career opportunities are better elsewhere then that is their prerogative to pursue other options. It's a good time to be a pilot with plenty of options to find what suits you best.

In about 2 and a half years we will have another open contract where we will evaluate market conditions and continue to ensure that our pilots are competitively paid compared to peers in Canada and retain a good work/lifestyle balance.

Interesting.

How is RRP administered? Through the "Personal Leave of Absence" section in the CA, or is there an LOU addressing this specific policy?

Are all pilots eligible, or is it case by case?

Thanks

All pilots who provide at least two weeks notice are provided with an unpaid LOA equal to their notice period up to a maximum of 30 days.

[Arnie Pye]

Just wait until the overseas hiring ramps up. It won't just be FO's looking at other opportunities. I know I'm getting a little tired of watching 50% of my earned income going to taxes again.

Also, should have noted that this isn't a Flair problem. It's a Canada problem.

I'll be curious how our hiring keeps up over the next year or so. I don't see us parking planes but we definitely struggled to keep everything crewed last summer and this coming year could be even busier.

[Apestogetherstrong]

We do have a "resignation reconsideration policy" We have had pilots who resigned and went to Air Canada, Sunwing and Emirates and chose to return shortly after leaving. We provide a cooling-off period for those pilots who wish to reconsider.

Since last summer we are seeing a resignation rate of an average of about 3-4 piltos per month. Almost all to Air Canada, 1 to Westjet group, and 1 to Porter. That is a percentage that we can tolerate. We expect that to increase slightly in 2023 as Air Canada ramps up hiring or Porter opens up Eastern bases before we do, and we wish those who choose to pursue employment elsewhere the best of luck with their future endeavors.

We continue to believe that a new hire coming to Flair will have a competitive 10-year total compensation while enjoying a better lifestyle and career opportunities than they would at other carriers. If a pilot believes that Flair is not a good fit for them and that our current compensation, lifestyle, and career opportunities are better elsewhere then that is their prerogative to pursue other options. It's a good time to be a pilot with plenty of options to find what suits you best.

In about 2 and a half years we will have another open contract where we will evaluate market conditions and continue to ensure that our pilots are competitively paid compared to peers in Canada and retain a good work/lifestyle balance.

2 and a half years will be too late. I think by summer end the attrition numbers will send Flair into “panic MOA mode” And will surely come with better numbers. Also anyone who is starting with Flair be warned that the 3year 30k FO and 50k CA bonus is not being offered to anyone who starts now. It was only for pilots who were hired before 2023.