ALPA Petition

[Stu Pidasso]

Same old anti ALPA fear mongering, somehow a merger between Jazz and AC would go DOH. Christ, the Canadi>n Pilots didn't get DOH and they had 747-400's and a superior route structure.

AC has hired hundreds (probably a thousand) Jazz pilots over the last few years through a negotiated flow through, to the bottom of the list.

Even the dumbest Arbitrator on the planet would not give them DOH. That would put some snot nosed 250 hour Seneca hire, who has been at Jazz for two years and still doesn't have an ATPL, ahead of an AC Pilot.

This is nothing more than the save ACPA propaganda campaign.

[rudder]

ACPA = dumpster fire

[bobcatdriver]

Same old anti ALPA fear mongering, somehow a merger between Jazz and AC would go DOH. Christ, the Canadi>n Pilots didn't get DOH and they had 747-400's and a superior route structure.

AC has hired hundreds (probably a thousand) Jazz pilots over the last few years through a negotiated flow through, to the bottom of the list.

Even the dumbest Arbitrator on the planet would not give them DOH. That would put some snot nosed 250 hour Seneca hire, who has been at Jazz for two years and still doesn't have an ATPL, ahead of an AC Pilot.

This is nothing more than the save ACPA propaganda campaign.

Let’s pay Jazz pilots for what they should be worth and cut the umbilical to AC.

Would pass in a landslide vote.

[Stu Pidasso]

Now there's a fun discussion, how much is a Jazz Pilot worth. Rudder has posted some very reasonable numbers.

How about the new hire 250 hour College Grad. Here is a Pilot that no longer has to slug it out in the bush, or right seat of a King Air or worse yet (the epitome of Pilot exploitation) slaving on some scumbag operators ramp. Airline give them some snazzy clothes, doesn't have to buy greasy coveralls and expensive Arctic Parkas. Lives in Canada's major cities, no longer living on a Reserve.

Zero chance of getting killed in a flaming General Aviation (insert "Nav Air") accident. Pretty soft touch for a 250 hour Pilot.

What should their starting pay be? I am pretty familiar of the starting pay of an Articling Chartered Accountant (now CPA,) or Lawyer - shockingly low!

I am a firm believer that no Pilot should ever make less than the person serving your coffee, or loading the suitcases. That said, Jazz is an Airline that Deadheads Flight Attendants in J-Class and the Pilots in Economy - someone explain that brilliant move from ALPA?

Rumor has it the top end at Jazz isn't all bad, maybe it is somewhere in the middle seniority that needs fixing?

[Fanblade]

Now there's a fun discussion, how much is a Jazz Pilot worth. Rudder has posted some very reasonable numbers.

How about the new hire 250 hour College Grad. Here is a Pilot that no longer has to slug it out in the bush, or right seat of a King Air or worse yet (the epitome of Pilot exploitation) slaving on some scumbag operators ramp. Airline give them some snazzy clothes, doesn't have to buy greasy coveralls and expensive Arctic Parkas. Lives in Canada's major cities, no longer living on a Reserve.

Zero chance of getting killed in a flaming General Aviation (insert "Nav Air") accident. Pretty soft touch for a 250 hour Pilot.

What should their starting pay be? I am pretty familiar of the starting pay of an Articling Chartered Accountant (now CPA,) or Lawyer - shockingly low!

I am a firm believer that no Pilot should ever make less than the person serving your coffee, or loading the suitcases. That said, Jazz is an Airline that Deadheads Flight Attendants in J-Class and the Pilots in Economy - someone explain that brilliant move from ALPA?

Rumor has it the top end at Jazz isn't all bad, maybe it is somewhere in the middle seniority that needs fixing?

Better question. Why would any pilot go out of their way to devalue another pilot, regardless of experience?

This attitude has to stop. I get it. We have had it ingrained in us that everyone is supposed to pay their dues. Should they really? Who does this actually benefit? And why would we promote it? It drags everything down.

A new hire deserves the exact same respect and pay as any other new hire regardless of experience. If there is a shortage coming then the northern operators will have to pull-up their socks to attract them. We shouldn’t be pulling that bar down.

How about we just lose all the rationalizations, justifications and excuses we have employed in the past to lower the bar.

[hithere]

Air Canada picked some arbitrary date(I believe it’s in 2011 or 2012) and anyone hired after that date(pilots and FA) does not get to sit in J while deadheading even if there are empty seats there. ALPA challenged it during the bargaining of the Georgian and Sky Regional acquisitions and were told it was a no-go.
So if you see a Jazz crew deadheading with the FAs in J and the pilots in Y it’s because the FAs were hired pre-2011 and the pilots post 2011.
It’s ridiculous because the Jazz pilots often have multiple legs to operate after sitting in the middle seat of a YYC-YYZ deadhead.
As I said the JAZ MEC has been trying to rectify this disgrace for several years. Maybe in 2023 it can be addressed

[cdnavater]

Air Canada picked some arbitrary date(I believe it’s in 2011 or 2012) and anyone hired after that date(pilots and FA) does not get to sit in J while deadheading even if there are empty seats there. ALPA challenged it during the bargaining of the Georgian and Sky Regional acquisitions and were told it was a no-go.
So if you see a Jazz crew deadheading with the FAs in J and the pilots in Y it’s because the FAs were hired pre-2011 and the pilots post 2011.
It’s ridiculous because the Jazz pilots often have multiple legs to operate after sitting in the middle seat of a YYC-YYZ deadhead.
As I said the JAZ MEC has been trying to rectify this disgrace for several years. Maybe in 2023 it can be addressed

There’s two dates, it was changed in 2015, all new hires after that are C4 with no DH in J.
Those hired before 2015 but after 2006 are also C4 but get two C2s per year(yee haw) however still get upgraded on DH if a seat is available.
I’m very familiar with this as I was a C2 but missed the cut off for keeping them by a few months, it shouldn’t have happened at all but even more upsetting was that they took away something I had.
I had a very senior Captain scold me for being ticked off about this, I asked him to give up his C2s in solidarity, guess how that went.

[Stu Pidasso]

Thanks Hithere, I didn't know that. I was questioning pos space Deadheading, not the never ending C2 / C4 debacle.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Welcome to another solid Canadian tradition, the "them & US" culture is alive and well

"I had a very senior Captain scold me for being ticked off about this, I asked him to give up his C2s in solidarity, guess how that went."

It's the "Why give an inch when you can have the whole mile" mind set

[Stu Pidasso]

Find another Airline on the planet that a F/A would be in Business Class and the Pilots in Economy. Talk about a seriously screwed up industry we have in this Country.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Find another Airline on the planet that a F/A would be in Business Class and the Pilots in Economy. Talk about a seriously screwed up industry we have in this Country.

Yup. I could not have said it better myself.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Find another Airline on the planet that a F/A would be in Business Class and the Pilots in Economy. Talk about a seriously screwed up industry we have in this Country.

We all have the same name at the top of our pay cheque, we are all working as hard as the next person towards the same goals and objectives.

[Stu Pidasso]

....and your point is?

[Lance rose]

I think the point was.....ACPA looks like Tarzan, fights like Jane

[BingBong]

ACPA looks more like early career Jonah hill

[RippleRock]

So where is this going? Anyone know???

There is a clear mandate from the group.

The new MEC seems to be hard at work approving new MOUs without Membership input.

[Protonpilot]

So where is this going? Anyone know???

There is a clear mandate from the group.

The new MEC seems to be hard at work approving new MOUs without Membership input.

Are you referring to the recent MOA from the MASC Committee? The MOA in question had to do with claiming the cost of a cold breakfast if your Rice Krispies don't snap, crackle and pop to your satisfaction. And other nit noy.

Membership votes are required for changes to the contract that are 'material'. Not sure this one met that standard. Is it your expectation that under ALPA this kind of thing will go to a membership vote?

[Dash.Trash]

So where is this going? Anyone know???

There is a clear mandate from the group.

The new MEC seems to be hard at work approving new MOUs without Membership input.

From the January 6 MEC newsletter:

“Next week we have an MEC Meeting scheduled in Toronto, where we have numerous items on our agenda from reengaging with ALPA for unity discussions, to strategizing with our Negotiations Committee for the upcoming bargaining cycle. Stay tuned for an update after the meeting has wrapped.”

[RippleRock]

So where is this going? Anyone know???

There is a clear mandate from the group.

The new MEC seems to be hard at work approving new MOUs without Membership input.

Are you referring to the recent MOA from the MASC Committee? The MOA in question had to do with claiming the cost of a cold breakfast if your Rice Krispies don't snap, crackle and pop to your satisfaction. And other nit noy.

Membership votes are required for changes to the contract that are 'material'. Not sure this one met that standard. Is it your expectation that under ALPA this kind of thing will go to a membership vote?

Uhhh....ya.....whatever......

Thank you to DashTrash for an actual answer to my question. Cheers.

[Protonpilot]

The new MEC seems to be hard at work approving new MOUs without Membership input.

I'll try to be more clear, I am asking you a question here.

You're saying the new MEC (very pro ALPA by the way) is approving MOUs without membership input.

Can you help us out here? What MOUs are you talking about? They've only been sitting for a few months, and the only MOU I've seen since they took office has to do with meal claims. Big deal.

Am I missing something?

[Curiousflyer]

The new MEC seems to be hard at work approving new MOUs without Membership input.

I'll try to be more clear, I am asking you a question here.

You're saying the new MEC (very pro ALPA by the way) is approving MOUs without membership input.

Can you help us out here? What MOUs are you talking about? They've only been sitting for a few months, and the only MOU I've seen since they took office has to do with meal claims. Big deal.

Am I missing something?

The new MOA settled many minor issues that were heading for the grievance process.

Such as:
voluntary sim transportation cost ($5)
Cancelled hotel rooms while training ($25)
Gratuity allowance while training at night ($5)
Cold Breakfast not boarded ($12)

[Daniel Cooper]

From the January 6 MEC newsletter:

“Next week we have an MEC Meeting scheduled in Toronto, where we have numerous items on our agenda from reengaging with ALPA for unity discussions, to strategizing with our Negotiations Committee for the upcoming bargaining cycle. Stay tuned for an update after the meeting has wrapped.”

I'm disappointed to learn that they haven't re-engaged ALPA already given the strong survey results and subsequent landslide membership vote. Do you think they are going to drag this out?

[Dash.Trash]

From the January 6 MEC newsletter:

“Next week we have an MEC Meeting scheduled in Toronto, where we have numerous items on our agenda from reengaging with ALPA for unity discussions, to strategizing with our Negotiations Committee for the upcoming bargaining cycle. Stay tuned for an update after the meeting has wrapped.”

I'm disappointed to learn that they haven't re-engaged ALPA already given the strong survey results and subsequent landslide membership vote. Do you think they are going to drag this out?

I heard from a reasonably reputable source that the Unity Initiative committee has been re-stood up and I believe ALPA has been engaged. I interpret “reengaging with ALPA” to mean discuss the Unity initiative committee’s progress.

Hopefully with the progress that has previously been made in years past will help expedite the process.

[Fanblade]

From the January 6 MEC newsletter:

“Next week we have an MEC Meeting scheduled in Toronto, where we have numerous items on our agenda from reengaging with ALPA for unity discussions, to strategizing with our Negotiations Committee for the upcoming bargaining cycle. Stay tuned for an update after the meeting has wrapped.”

I'm disappointed to learn that they haven't re-engaged ALPA already given the strong survey results and subsequent landslide membership vote. Do you think they are going to drag this out?

I heard from a reasonably reputable source that the Unity Initiative committee has been re-stood up and I believe ALPA has been engaged. I interpret “reengaging with ALPA” to mean discuss the Unity initiative committee’s progress.

Hopefully with the progress that has previously been made in years past will help expedite the process.

My understanding is a decision was made to strike a deal with ALPA first. Then do the ALPA information road shows once it is known exactly what joining ALPA will look like. Makes sense to me.

The negotiations process might be quick as there was a previous deal to build upon. But no guarantee of course.

When it’s done we will hear more about next steps. Roadshows and ultimately a vote.

It is my understanding that the ALPA board that has to give its blessing to any merge only meets twice a year. Once in the spring. Once in the fall.

[RippleRock]

Some of us are very eager to see the yellow, colluding, capitulating mess that is ACPA thrown hard into a dumpster and set alight.

Can't happen quickly enough in my world. Any "initiative" otherwise seems a waste of resources and time.