New Hiring Minimums

[twa22]

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading... If what is being said is even remotely true, this has to be the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time... And there have been some sad things posted here, but by far this is the worst...

[truedude]

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading... If what is being said is even remotely true, this has to be the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time... And there have been some sad things posted here, but by far this is the worst...

Which parts?

[twa22]

I honestly can't believe what I'm reading... If what is being said is even remotely true, this has to be the saddest thing I have read in a long, long time... And there have been some sad things posted here, but by far this is the worst...

Which parts?

The echoing sentiment that they are willing (or are inept), to go to the farthest extent to not give a pay raise, even if that means driving the operations into the ground

[truedude]

Oh yeah, it is weird. It is like we are in some bizzare pissing match with someone at AC, who is prepared to sacrifice market share just to give us the finger on pay.

You can't convince me it is going to cost less to screw us on pay and have the resulting market share loss along with operational stability going to crap, than cough up a couple dollars for pay and have restrain market share and have a stable operation.

[rudder]

Captains should start at $100 per credit hour, and top out at $200 in 16 years.

And maybe have anyone with an ATPL start at year 4 or 5 on the F/O scale, along with more money for training pilots and LTC pilots, particularly if they will be teaching people to fly.

And there needs to be a clear path forward to AC. Perhaps reserved seniority numbers, along with pay guarantees up to a certain year.

Bingo. Won’t happen. But still - Bingo.

[twa22]

Oh yeah, it is weird. It is like we are in some bizzare pissing match with someone at AC, who is prepared to sacrifice market share just to give us the finger on pay.

You can't convince me it is going to cost less to screw us on pay and have the resulting market share loss along with operational stability going to crap, than cough up a couple dollars for pay and have restrain market share and have a stable operation.

I can't say I know any example off the top of my head on a large scale, but what I can say in my personal experience, the saying "you get what you pay for" almost never fails... guess this is brewing into one of those situations by the sounds of it. Sad, really sad...

[rudder]

Looks like Jazz just dropped the minimum hiring requirement. The new posting says 500 hours TT with no mention of multi time required. Interesting times ahead

Hiring low time pilots at Jazz simply exacerbates the shortfall of upgradeable pilots to fill the void created by departing CA.

It is not a solution. Paying enough to attract experienced pilots is a solution.

[Rowdy]

Rudder has it nailed.

Anyone with experience to be a CA at Jazz, has better options with Flair, Lynx, WJ, Sunwing, AT and AC mainline. Why saddle yourself with a shitty paying FO spot in YYZ? Even initial captain pay is abysmal.

We need 1800-2000hr pilots who can upgrade in under a year. Even then, we are already behind the curve. The only fix for AC/CHR's problem is money. Don't know why they are so loathe to increase pay...

Solution? cut the first four years off the pay scale and throw em in the trash. Slide everyone up. Add 30% for the inflation thats happened in the last 3 years and then move min credit to 5.0 so we go back to working 15-16 days a month instead of 18.. making us burnt out and unavailable for OT. Add a couple perks in there and I'm sure the group would be happy.

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.

[cdnavater]

Rudder has it nailed.

Anyone with experience to be a CA at Jazz, has better options with Flair, Lynx, WJ, Sunwing, AT and AC mainline. Why saddle yourself with a shitty paying FO spot in YYZ? Even initial captain pay is abysmal.

We need 1800-2000hr pilots who can upgrade in under a year. Even then, we are already behind the curve. The only fix for AC/CHR's problem is money. Don't know why they are so loathe to increase pay...

Solution? cut the first four years off the pay scale and throw em in the trash. Slide everyone up. Add 30% for the inflation thats happened in the last 3 years and then move min credit to 5.0 so we go back to working 15-16 days a month instead of 18.. making us burnt out and unavailable for OT. Add a couple perks in there and I'm sure the group would be happy.

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.

Vote for Rowdy!

[PilotZum]

Rudder has it nailed.

Anyone with experience to be a CA at Jazz, has better options with Flair, Lynx, WJ, Sunwing, AT and AC mainline. Why saddle yourself with a shitty paying FO spot in YYZ? Even initial captain pay is abysmal.

We need 1800-2000hr pilots who can upgrade in under a year. Even then, we are already behind the curve. The only fix for AC/CHR's problem is money. Don't know why they are so loathe to increase pay...

Solution? cut the first four years off the pay scale and throw em in the trash. Slide everyone up. Add 30% for the inflation thats happened in the last 3 years and then move min credit to 5.0 so we go back to working 15-16 days a month instead of 18.. making us burnt out and unavailable for OT. Add a couple perks in there and I'm sure the group would be happy.

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.

AC needs to get back to pre-bankruptcy wages+inflation. That's it.

[BeetleClock27]

Has anyone who applied at the beginning of the year heard back yet?

[truedude]

Has anyone who applied at the beginning of the year heard back yet?

Why would you want to go to Jazz. Lowest paid 705 starting pay in Canada. Air Canada not taking the required 60%.

People are leaving left right and center, some not even finishing ground school.

Aim higher!

[Calinrobandfistyou]

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.

10-15%?, maybe as a temporary MOA to help them through the next year, but come full blow negotiations, more like 40-60%

[truedude]

How to fix AC? Get rid of flat pay and increase the rest of the scale between 10-15%. Oh and fix the reserve rules.

10-15%?, maybe as a temporary MOA to help them through the next year, but come full blow negotiations, more like 40-60%

They know what they need to fix it. They can start negotiating early. We hand out no more life boats. We give them nothing. For 40 years they have driven our wages down, bullied us, and used a pilot surplus to force us into accepting substandard wages. It is time to take it all back and then some.

We should accept nothing less than what our American counterparts are making on a dollar for dollar bases. Which will still put us behind when currency conversion and cost of living is applied.

But we are dealing with some really stubborn management that seem to prefer driving off a cliff. We just need to make sure they know we are prepared to go over with them before accepting a dollar less than we are worth.

[Rowdy]

Someone likened it to a game of chicken.

AC management is the big old angry Moose, who is so used to being the one to win and bulldoze..

Unfortunately the industry and pilot groups are actually a speeding freight train.

Watch as more wild, bizarre and foolish tactics are used to manipulate the situation and the employee groups.

[truedude]

Someone likened it to a game of chicken.

AC management is the big old angry Moose, who is so used to being the one to win and bulldoze..

Unfortunately the industry and pilot groups are actually a speeding freight train.

Watch as more wild, bizarre and foolish tactics are used to manipulate the situation and the employee groups.

Oh we are definitely going to see some weird things. They are going to act like a cornered desperate animal.

But I think we are all fed up in Canada, and prepared to stand firm and resolute, and not be bullied into accepting a penny less than we are worth.

[Kosiw]

Someone likened it to a game of chicken.

AC management is the big old angry Moose, who is so used to being the one to win and bulldoze..

Unfortunately the industry and pilot groups are actually a speeding freight train.

Watch as more wild, bizarre and foolish tactics are used to manipulate the situation and the employee groups.

THIS

And it won't be limited to only a single airline's management clown show...grab the popcorn.

[Reinhard]

Has anyone who applied at the beginning of the year heard back yet?

Yes

[rudder]

Hiring 500 hr (or 250 hr) pilots at a carrier losing hundreds of CA per year is not a plan. Also, 1500 hr and and ink still wet ATP rating does not make a pilot ‘Captain qualified’ at a 705 carrier.

One only has to wonder how this is going to end.

[truedude]

Hiring 500 hr (or 250 hr) pilots at a carrier losing hundreds of CA per year is not a plan. Also, 1500 hr and and ink still wet ATP rating does not make a pilot ‘Captain qualified’ at a 705 carrier.

One only has to wonder how this is going to end.

I just see desperation from management at every corner. There are lots of well qualified people in 703 and 704 ops, along with other airlines that would come over if the pay were better, and someone could map a career at Jazz. Not everyone wants to work for Air Canada. Not everyone needs to make over $300,000 grand. But people do expect to be compensated fairly, particularly in this market.

I think the sentiment in Canada amongst pilots is rather uniform, in that we are fed up being treated the way we are, and have been for 40 years. This sentiment isn't going to go away. The only way to increase the number of pilots in the pipeline long term, is to ensure we are fairly compensated, and treated properly, to once again make it an attractive career choice.

But it appears shrinking is more palpable option to management, over paying. Which of course just makes people more angry, bitter, and generally discourages people to apply. Because who wants to work for a company that thinks so little of an employee group that they choose to shrink over pay.

Everyday I wake up in shock at the situation.

[Loon-A-Tic]

Until this "path of least resistance" is eliminated via federal regulation with higher "entry to practice" requirements mandated it will be the "option" of choice by management in all cases.

[rudder]

In order for a ‘regional’ (tier II Part 705) to meet staffing obligations (recruitment) minimum starting pay should be:

Year 1 CA $100k (2023)
Year 1 FO $ 65k (2023) (*ATPL pilots second year minimum 66.6% of corresponding CA pay)

And for a non-AC 705 carrier operating large NB (>100,000lbs) minimum starting pay should be:

Year 1 CA $150k (2023)
Year 1 FO $ 90k (2023) (*with second year minimum 66.6% of corresponding CA pay)

And for ‘retention’ purposes, pay progression will have to be significant (at least 50% at top scale) and on a reasonable timeline, not 18 years (Jazz).

There has been some small movement in this direction but not enough. Many carriers are still sitting on their hands continuing to believe that paying less than a TTC driver will be sufficient in an incredibly competitive market for finite pilot labour resources.

Finding a new pilot employee in 2023 is a challenge. Finding an experienced pilot who will not jump ship at the earliest superior economic offer is where the focus should be. Empty pockets and status quo will not achieve that objective.