Negotiations

[Fanblade]

Any pilot wage increases are not coming from Jazz but AC. AC wanted bargain basement CPA costs and forced it onto Jazz through a co-ordinated and methodical plan. Now they’re reaping what they sowed. Jazz’s CPA income and profit margins are not roomy enough for a large raise. AC is gonna have to pony up or come up with a new plan.

AC doesn’t care about Jazz’ costs. That’s a Jazz problem. AC can just hire their pilots, repatriate the flying to mainline, and it still gets done.

Yes and no. I believe AC pays most of the fees including deice and fuel. An A220 carries more people than a CRJ and the fuel per passenger is lower, even compared to a q400.

That applies to every aircraft type. Fuel burn per seat drops as the aircraft gets larger. If that was the only metric that mattered we would only fly widebodies. No manufacturer would be making anything other than widebodies. No one would be purchasing anything other than widebodies.

The reason is fuel is only one metric of many, that go into making something economically viable.

The metric in play here on the topic of pilot wages is the cost of a pilot per seat/mile. Yes I just made that up. But it works for explaining.

A B777 pilots wages are divided by 400 seats. A dash 8-300 pilots wages are divided by 50 seats. The -8 pilot is far more expensive per seat/mile than a 777 pilot. Substantially more expensive.

So more expensive pilot costs per seat/mile and more expensive fuel cost per seat/mile to operate smaller aircraft. Exactly the reason these aircraft, below a specific threshold, need to be operated under a lower cost structure to be economically viable.

Air Canada has previously stated this threshold to be 130 seats. I note however Delta runs the B717 viably with 110 seats. Hawaiian at 128 seats. The real number is probably between 110-120.

Yes they can upgauge some routes. Some. But Canada is not Europe or the Eastern seaboard. We are a large country with low density populations. Regional aircraft are required for feed. Many of our overseas routes are no longer viable without low density feed.

[truedude]

Not to mention a 220 requires more F/As, requires more ground support, takes longer to turn, and depending on the airport, costs more in landing fees and parking.

The metric to profitable isn't based on one thing. Not to mention frequency is important too. You fill as 220 it might be the same fuel burn per seat, but then you are likely doing so at a cost of frequency, which has an impact on market share.

[Fanblade]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6714002

WestJet adds flights between Calgary and Saskatchewan as Air Canada cuts service

[truedude]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6714002

WestJet adds flights between Calgary and Saskatchewan as Air Canada cuts service

Exactly!

I remember when CR first came back, he said no airline in history has shrunk its way to profitability. I really don't understand what is going on, especially with China opening. Is it really worth market share and a destabilized airline to try and save a couple dollars per seat mile on crew costs.

The reality is, it is not a profession people want to enter. The pilot shortage isn't going away. And when you have 704 operators paying more for first officers, you need to adapt. Stubbornly refusing it isn't an issue is just dumb. And we have people leaving whom never would have left, simply because they are fed up working for a company that clearly values them so little, thus making the problem bigger, and more costly to fix. And with them showing that they have no regard for the 60% flow, the further made it harder to fix the problem.

I really wish I knew who was responsible for being this determined not to pay more.

[Fanblade]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6714002

WestJet adds flights between Calgary and Saskatchewan as Air Canada cuts service

Exactly!

I remember when CR first came back, he said no airline in history has shrunk its way to profitability. I really don't understand what is going on, especially with China opening. Is it really worth market share and a destabilized airline to try and save a couple dollars per seat mile on crew costs.

The reality is, it is not a profession people want to enter. The pilot shortage isn't going away. And when you have 704 operators paying more for first officers, you need to adapt. Stubbornly refusing it isn't an issue is just dumb. And we have people leaving whom never would have left, simply because they are fed up working for a company that clearly values them so little, thus making the problem bigger, and more costly to fix. And with them showing that they have no regard for the 60% flow, the further made it harder to fix the problem.

I really wish I knew who was responsible for being this determined not to pay more.

The buck stops, literally in this case, at the top. Not of Jazz but of AC. With all the post Covid operational fails so far you would think they would be keen to stomp out future ones.

Just wait em out. He who blinks first loses.

[rudder]

When there were 3 Express carriers (Jazz/GGN/SKY) there were approximately 2000 consolidated pilots. Subtract 15% for med leave, training dept, LOA, and management leaves you approximately 1700 line flying positions.

With a Jazz/Express equipment bid showing 1326 flying positions for ‘peak’ 2023, what you see is an approximately 19% reduction of pilot staffing at Express between 2019 and 2023. Meanwhile, AC is already projecting 2023 mainline Pilot staffing that nearly equals the high water mark of the last pre-COVID equipment bid.

I wonder how many pilots will be required to fly 80 Express aircraft after December 2025?

The issue now is how will AC get Express from January 2023 to December 2025. It seems that the current strategy is cancelled Express routes and Express route repatriation to mainline metal. The employer gets to run the business, provided those decisions do not conflict with any terms of the CBA.

Certain companies seem to be bound and determined to be the last to join the party of pay amelioration in a declining pilot supply market. That is a choice.

[newlygrounded]

AC doesn’t care about Jazz’ costs. That’s a Jazz problem. AC can just hire their pilots, repatriate the flying to mainline, and it still gets done.

Yes and no. I believe AC pays most of the fees including deice and fuel. An A220 carries more people than a CRJ and the fuel per passenger is lower, even compared to a q400.

That applies to every aircraft type. Fuel burn per seat drops as the aircraft gets larger. If that was the only metric that mattered we would only fly widebodies. No manufacturer would be making anything other than widebodies. No one would be purchasing anything other than widebodies.

The reason is fuel is only one metric of many, that go into making something economically viable.

The metric in play here on the topic of pilot wages is the cost of a pilot per seat/mile. Yes I just made that up. But it works for explaining.

A B777 pilots wages are divided by 400 seats. A dash 8-300 pilots wages are divided by 50 seats. The -8 pilot is far more expensive per seat/mile than a 777 pilot. Substantially more expensive.

So more expensive pilot costs per seat/mile and more expensive fuel cost per seat/mile to operate smaller aircraft. Exactly the reason these aircraft, below a specific threshold, need to be operated under a lower cost structure to be economically viable.

Air Canada has previously stated this threshold to be 130 seats. I note however Delta runs the B717 viably with 110 seats. Hawaiian at 128 seats. The real number is probably between 110-120.

Yes they can upgauge some routes. Some. But Canada is not Europe or the Eastern seaboard. We are a large country with low density populations. Regional aircraft are required for feed. Many of our overseas routes are no longer viable without low density feed.

A220 fuel burn: 2.8 kg/km
CRJ200 fuel burn: 2.18 kg/km

It's not that big of a difference, especially when AC's load factor is over 80%

[Fanblade]

Yes and no. I believe AC pays most of the fees including deice and fuel. An A220 carries more people than a CRJ and the fuel per passenger is lower, even compared to a q400.

That applies to every aircraft type. Fuel burn per seat drops as the aircraft gets larger. If that was the only metric that mattered we would only fly widebodies. No manufacturer would be making anything other than widebodies. No one would be purchasing anything other than widebodies.

The reason is fuel is only one metric of many, that go into making something economically viable.

The metric in play here on the topic of pilot wages is the cost of a pilot per seat/mile. Yes I just made that up. But it works for explaining.

A B777 pilots wages are divided by 400 seats. A dash 8-300 pilots wages are divided by 50 seats. The -8 pilot is far more expensive per seat/mile than a 777 pilot. Substantially more expensive.

So more expensive pilot costs per seat/mile and more expensive fuel cost per seat/mile to operate smaller aircraft. Exactly the reason these aircraft, below a specific threshold, need to be operated under a lower cost structure to be economically viable.

Air Canada has previously stated this threshold to be 130 seats. I note however Delta runs the B717 viably with 110 seats. Hawaiian at 128 seats. The real number is probably between 110-120.

Yes they can upgauge some routes. Some. But Canada is not Europe or the Eastern seaboard. We are a large country with low density populations. Regional aircraft are required for feed. Many of our overseas routes are no longer viable without low density feed.

A220 fuel burn: 2.8 kg/km
CRJ200 fuel burn: 2.18 kg/km

It's not that big of a difference, especially when AC's load factor is over 80%

It's actually a 22% difference. Its actually rather large.

But that wasn't the point. A single metric doesn't paint an accurate picture. It's like saying I can afford my house based on how much natural gas the furnace uses.

There are mortgage payments, property tax, maintenance food ect ect.

It's only economically viable if more is coming in than going out AFTER all expenses are tallied up.

[newlygrounded]

That applies to every aircraft type. Fuel burn per seat drops as the aircraft gets larger. If that was the only metric that mattered we would only fly widebodies. No manufacturer would be making anything other than widebodies. No one would be purchasing anything other than widebodies.

The reason is fuel is only one metric of many, that go into making something economically viable.

The metric in play here on the topic of pilot wages is the cost of a pilot per seat/mile. Yes I just made that up. But it works for explaining.

A B777 pilots wages are divided by 400 seats. A dash 8-300 pilots wages are divided by 50 seats. The -8 pilot is far more expensive per seat/mile than a 777 pilot. Substantially more expensive.

So more expensive pilot costs per seat/mile and more expensive fuel cost per seat/mile to operate smaller aircraft. Exactly the reason these aircraft, below a specific threshold, need to be operated under a lower cost structure to be economically viable.

Air Canada has previously stated this threshold to be 130 seats. I note however Delta runs the B717 viably with 110 seats. Hawaiian at 128 seats. The real number is probably between 110-120.

Yes they can upgauge some routes. Some. But Canada is not Europe or the Eastern seaboard. We are a large country with low density populations. Regional aircraft are required for feed. Many of our overseas routes are no longer viable without low density feed.

A220 fuel burn: 2.8 kg/km
CRJ200 fuel burn: 2.18 kg/km

It's not that big of a difference, especially when AC's load factor is over 80%

It's actually a 22% difference. Its actually rather large.

But that wasn't the point. A single metric doesn't paint an accurate picture. It's like saying I can afford my house based on how much natural gas the furnace uses.

There are mortgage payments, property tax, maintenance food ect ect.

It's only economically viable if more is coming in than going out AFTER all expenses are tallied up.

Fair but Air Canada pays most of the expenses for the Jazz fleet, aside from the crews obviously.

[rudder]

A220 fuel burn: 2.8 kg/km
CRJ200 fuel burn: 2.18 kg/km

It's not that big of a difference, especially when AC's load factor is over 80%

It's actually a 22% difference. Its actually rather large.

But that wasn't the point. A single metric doesn't paint an accurate picture. It's like saying I can afford my house based on how much natural gas the furnace uses.

There are mortgage payments, property tax, maintenance food ect ect.

It's only economically viable if more is coming in than going out AFTER all expenses are tallied up.

Fair but Air Canada pays most of the expenses for the Jazz fleet, aside from the crews obviously.

Perhaps the answer is for AC to buy Jazz from CHR and simply revert to the SKY/Express model - use current mainline infrastructure to provide as many services as possible to the extent that the only required Jazz assets would be operational personnel.

The era of b-scale staffing seems to be coming to a close. Nobody is willing to work for peanuts when one can make $30k+/yr plus benefits at McDonald’s.

[PostmasterGeneral]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6714002

WestJet adds flights between Calgary and Saskatchewan as Air Canada cuts service

Exactly!

I remember when CR first came back, he said no airline in history has shrunk its way to profitability. I really don't understand what is going on, especially with China opening. Is it really worth market share and a destabilized airline to try and save a couple dollars per seat mile on crew costs.

The reality is, it is not a profession people want to enter. The pilot shortage isn't going away. And when you have 704 operators paying more for first officers, you need to adapt. Stubbornly refusing it isn't an issue is just dumb. And we have people leaving whom never would have left, simply because they are fed up working for a company that clearly values them so little, thus making the problem bigger, and more costly to fix. And with them showing that they have no regard for the 60% flow, the further made it harder to fix the problem.

I really wish I knew who was responsible for being this determined not to pay more.

AC is not shrinking, they are expanding, especially with new aircraft showing up every month, and they’ve even sparked some A319’s back up from the desert. They’re re-deploying these aircraft on more profitable routes, and if they shrink out of Calgary to grow Vancouver, they no longer need Jazz feeding YYC from Saskatoon, etc.

[truedude]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/ ... -1.6714002

WestJet adds flights between Calgary and Saskatchewan as Air Canada cuts service

Exactly!

I remember when CR first came back, he said no airline in history has shrunk its way to profitability. I really don't understand what is going on, especially with China opening. Is it really worth market share and a destabilized airline to try and save a couple dollars per seat mile on crew costs.

The reality is, it is not a profession people want to enter. The pilot shortage isn't going away. And when you have 704 operators paying more for first officers, you need to adapt. Stubbornly refusing it isn't an issue is just dumb. And we have people leaving whom never would have left, simply because they are fed up working for a company that clearly values them so little, thus making the problem bigger, and more costly to fix. And with them showing that they have no regard for the 60% flow, the further made it harder to fix the problem.

I really wish I knew who was responsible for being this determined not to pay more.

AC is not shrinking, they are expanding, especially with new aircraft showing up every month, and they’ve even sparked some A319’s back up from the desert. They’re re-deploying these aircraft on more profitable routes, and if they shrink out of Calgary to grow Vancouver, they no longer need Jazz feeding YYC from Saskatoon, etc.

I am sure someone though something similar when Westjet was flying around after AC bought Canadian. Not everyone wants to go through YVR to get to YYC or YEG. Or YQR YXE to YWG now require people to go through YVR. That is just dumb.

Call it what you want, but if mainline is deploying resources to cover these routes at the expense of frequency and convince for passengers, that will give competitors a place to make foot holds.

You can spin this anyway you want, but it isn't good for AC, or Jazz or anyone really. It is just plane stubborn, and if that is how someone is trying to spin it to the board, then we are all in trouble.

Used to have 7 flights a day to YLW from YVR. Now it is 5, and someday 4. More room for flair and others to move in.

[truedude]

And it depends on your definition of shrink. They have less frequency and a smaller route network than a year ago, and much smaller than before covid. I would call that shrinking.

That route network that existed in 2019 was slow cultivated over a decade and saw the most profitable years in the history of Air Canada. That sort of success won't be duplicated by cutting routes and frequency, and then upgauging a couple routes due to the round about routing people now need to take.

I can tell you where that story ends...

[twa22]

It's actually a 22% difference. Its actually rather large.

But that wasn't the point. A single metric doesn't paint an accurate picture. It's like saying I can afford my house based on how much natural gas the furnace uses.

There are mortgage payments, property tax, maintenance food ect ect.

It's only economically viable if more is coming in than going out AFTER all expenses are tallied up.

Fair but Air Canada pays most of the expenses for the Jazz fleet, aside from the crews obviously.

The era of b-scale staffing seems to be coming to a close. Nobody is willing to work for peanuts when one can make $30k+/yr plus benefits at McDonald’s.

And that 30k is if you're working for minimum wage in Ontario which now is 15.50 an hour and you're only flipping burgers... I remember seeing a sign in Squamish about a year ago for something like 20 an hour to flip burgers, so right around 38.5K, to flip burgers... and Jazz base pay is 41k if I remember correctly...

[PostmasterGeneral]

Exactly!

I remember when CR first came back, he said no airline in history has shrunk its way to profitability. I really don't understand what is going on, especially with China opening. Is it really worth market share and a destabilized airline to try and save a couple dollars per seat mile on crew costs.

The reality is, it is not a profession people want to enter. The pilot shortage isn't going away. And when you have 704 operators paying more for first officers, you need to adapt. Stubbornly refusing it isn't an issue is just dumb. And we have people leaving whom never would have left, simply because they are fed up working for a company that clearly values them so little, thus making the problem bigger, and more costly to fix. And with them showing that they have no regard for the 60% flow, the further made it harder to fix the problem.

I really wish I knew who was responsible for being this determined not to pay more.

AC is not shrinking, they are expanding, especially with new aircraft showing up every month, and they’ve even sparked some A319’s back up from the desert. They’re re-deploying these aircraft on more profitable routes, and if they shrink out of Calgary to grow Vancouver, they no longer need Jazz feeding YYC from Saskatoon, etc.

I am sure someone though something similar when Westjet was flying around after AC bought Canadian. Not everyone wants to go through YVR to get to YYC or YEG. Or YQR YXE to YWG now require people to go through YVR. That is just dumb.

Call it what you want, but if mainline is deploying resources to cover these routes at the expense of frequency and convince for passengers, that will give competitors a place to make foot holds.

You can spin this anyway you want, but it isn't good for AC, or Jazz or anyone really. It is just plane stubborn, and if that is how someone is trying to spin it to the board, then we are all in trouble.

Used to have 7 flights a day to YLW from YVR. Now it is 5, and someday 4. More room for flair and others to move in.

Except for the giant, obvious flaw in your logic. AC is redeploying the resources elsewhere, obviously on routes that are far more profitable out east. Say what you want about AC, but they are great at going where the money is. They wouldn’t just abandon routes that there is money to be made on, if they couldn’t make more money elsewhere.

[truedude]

AC is not shrinking, they are expanding, especially with new aircraft showing up every month, and they’ve even sparked some A319’s back up from the desert. They’re re-deploying these aircraft on more profitable routes, and if they shrink out of Calgary to grow Vancouver, they no longer need Jazz feeding YYC from Saskatoon, etc.

I am sure someone though something similar when Westjet was flying around after AC bought Canadian. Not everyone wants to go through YVR to get to YYC or YEG. Or YQR YXE to YWG now require people to go through YVR. That is just dumb.

Call it what you want, but if mainline is deploying resources to cover these routes at the expense of frequency and convince for passengers, that will give competitors a place to make foot holds.

You can spin this anyway you want, but it isn't good for AC, or Jazz or anyone really. It is just plane stubborn, and if that is how someone is trying to spin it to the board, then we are all in trouble.

Used to have 7 flights a day to YLW from YVR. Now it is 5, and someday 4. More room for flair and others to move in.

Except for the giant, obvious flaw in your logic. AC is redeploying the resources elsewhere, obviously on routes that are far more profitable out east. Say what you want about AC, but they are great at going where the money is. They wouldn’t just abandon routes that there is money to be made on, if they couldn’t make more money elsewhere.

They are redeploying because they lack the crew to cover both. Not because they aren't making money doing it. They are essentially pulling back and protecting their core assets, abandoning other routes as a result. It is shrinking. Service is being cut across the parries, the interior, and frequency being reduced on top of that to all the above mentioned and more. Lets call it what it is, a tactical retreat. And with CR, Air Canada was great at going where the money is. Before that, their history at making money was dubious. I question their ability to do so moving forward.

All they have done is surrender routes to the competition, and allow and area for Flair and others to keep growing. That isn't good business, that is a failure at the top to keep themselves properly staffed.

People will not route themselves through YVR to get to YYC or YEG, or YWG. They will book on our competitors, which may make those up gauged aircraft running from YQR and YXE to YVR rather useless.

Nothing about what is happening is an indication of excellent leadership, but rather a complete abdication of it.

[kiaszceski]

It's time to call CR back!

[Rowdy]

The solution to this is easy.

Fix the pay. Provide some incentives.

[CaptDukeNukem]

The solution to this is easy.

Fix the pay. Provide some incentives.

100%

Who said money can’t buy happiness.

[Last Flight Out]

The future here is looking worse than ever. I hear the frustration in everyone I fly with our cross paths with at work. Our flying as stated in previous posts has already been significantly reduced. The preliminary ERJ schedule for February from what I have heard has all pilots mid seniority and lower that previously held flying positions being forced onto reserve. If this is any indication of things to come we are headed for trouble. We are all concerned about increased wages and pilot retention and seem frustrated that the company is not addressing these issues. But do they need too? Or as stated in previous posts maybe this is a way out of the current CPA and/or possibly the demise of Jazz in the very near future ? If the plan is to reduce the fleet to 80 fins by 2025 then there is no need to worry about retention or increased wages.

(If the operation continues at the current level of flying from AC)


E175 - 25
RJ/900 - 35
RJ/200 - 15
Dash8/Q400 - 39

1151 Active pilots.
1326 Flying portions in current bid.

1326 Pilots for "Peak" of Operations 2023 based on 114 Aircraft

930 Pilots to Operate 80 Aircraft in 2025 ?
930 is best case, if we are operating 114 fins now with 1151 then maybe 800 pilots in 2025.

Why would anyone come here now and better yet why stay ...

[truedude]

So we cut a massive amount of routes in the west, along with frequency because someone at Air Canada somehow thinks it is a better long term plan to give up market share than pay pilots more, while today Westjet announces opening a YEG base and brags about how many Jazz pilots they have hired.

This is the Air Canada from early 2000's that saw them go through bankruptcy. The level of stupid we are working with is just staggering.

[Fanblade]

So we cut a massive amount of routes in the west, along with frequency because someone at Air Canada somehow thinks it is a better long term plan to give up market share than pay pilots more, while today Westjet announces opening a YEG base and brags about how many Jazz pilots they have hired.

This is the Air Canada from early 2000's that saw them go through bankruptcy. The level of stupid we are working with is just staggering.

I don’t think Air Canada’s plan A was to cut routes. The recent ACPA MOA was their workaround. When it failed they had no choice but to revert to plan B and cut summer 2023. Simply no time left to make plan A happen.

Since summer is peak. And since summer 2023 is fait accompli. The next peak will be summer 2024. AC has months before summer 2024 is at threat.

And no. AC will do whatever it takes, if the option is available, not to pay. If they decide they must pay? Delay as long as possible.

[truedude]

So we cut a massive amount of routes in the west, along with frequency because someone at Air Canada somehow thinks it is a better long term plan to give up market share than pay pilots more, while today Westjet announces opening a YEG base and brags about how many Jazz pilots they have hired.

This is the Air Canada from early 2000's that saw them go through bankruptcy. The level of stupid we are working with is just staggering.

I don’t think Air Canada’s plan A was to cut routes. The recent ACPA MOA was their workaround. When it failed they had no choice but to revert to plan B and cut summer 2023. Simply no time left to make plan A happen.

Since summer is peak. And since summer 2023 is fait accompli. The next peak will be summer 2024. AC has months before summer 2024 is at threat.

And no. AC will do whatever it takes, if the option is available, not to pay. If they decide they must pay? Delay as long as possible.

It may not have been Plan A, but had they decided to actually solve the problem, we could have stopped the bleeding and started patching holes. But the bleeding since has just grown, and we are losing pilots left right and center. At this rate, there is not way we will be able to staff the current summer schedule, let alone whatever they have planned for 2024. And in the meantime, competition grows, and they entrench their position.

I fear their delay tactics will only make things worse. And that is if they don't try something really dumb that pisses off everyone at mainline and Jazz.

I just have a hard time believing the mess they are creating is somehow more cost effective than paying...

[kiaszceski]

Like what's happening at Encore, there's a plan behind it and we will know once it's done.

[Nick678]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.