Negotiations

[kiaszceski]

But then the burden would be on AC side.
That was what the AC MOA was giving Jazz pilots, a 2 years LOA and directly enter year 3 formula pay for Jazz pilots.
It got turned down 80% if I remember.

[truedude]

But then the burden would be on AC side.
That was what the AC MOA was giving Jazz pilots, a 2 years LOA and directly enter year 3 formula pay for Jazz pilots.
It got turned down 80% if I remember.

This is Air Canada's burden whether they like it or not. They either pay more in CPA costs so Jazz can fix the payscale. Or Jazz continues to be unblable to staff their flying, and AC looses frequency and regional markets. Either way, it is on them...

Seems to me it would be cheaper just to cough up the money and make sure their operation is a well tuned machine than what is happening now...

But they clearly feel differently.

[Rowdy]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.

That is a terrible idea. No one at AC wants Jazz pilots accruing seniority there and most of us at jazz that wanted to stick around don't give a flying hoot about AC seniority. Its only a minor incentive to attract 250hr college kids, which, is not who we need. Neither group wants this and it opens up too many variables and will allow the companies to whipsaw us.

You know how you fix this mess? Its really easy. MONEY!

Jazz?

cut the first 4 years off the pay scale and throw them in the garbage. add 30% for inflation and other costs. Make a better commuter schedule/benefit and fix some of our scheduling. Most importantly 5.0 min credit. Throw a couple little things in and Boom. Problem solved.

AC?

Get rid of the four year flat pay. Fix the reserve rules and pay EVERYONE the same wages. None of this rouge/cargo lower pay nonsense and throw some money at the senior pilots so they'll vote for it.

[Canadaflyer46]

But then the burden would be on AC side.
That was what the AC MOA was giving Jazz pilots, a 2 years LOA and directly enter year 3 formula pay for Jazz pilots.
It got turned down 80% if I remember.

This is Air Canada's burden whether they like it or not. They either pay more in CPA costs so Jazz can fix the payscale. Or Jazz continues to be unblable to staff their flying, and AC looses frequency and regional markets. Either way, it is on them...

Seems to me it would be cheaper just to cough up the money and make sure their operation is a well tuned machine than what is happening now...

But they clearly feel differently.

Same over at WJ/Encore. We all used to think when the shortage hit they'd have to pay up, as they have in the US. Turns out they'll just lower and lower the experience requirements. And when that no longer works, management is so stubborn they'd likely rather sink the place than actually attempt to solve their attraction/retention issues with any money.

[averageatbest]

Same over at WJ/Encore. We all used to think when the shortage hit they'd have to pay up, as they have in the US. Turns out they'll just lower and lower the experience requirements. And when that no longer works, management is so stubborn they'd likely rather sink the place than actually attempt to solve their attraction/retention issues with any money.

They just gave Encore a pretty decent raise by a different name...

[RoAF-Mig21]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.

That is a terrible idea. No one at AC wants Jazz pilots accruing seniority there and most of us at jazz that wanted to stick around don't give a flying hoot about AC seniority. Its only a minor incentive to attract 250hr college kids, which, is not who we need. Neither group wants this and it opens up too many variables and will allow the companies to whipsaw us.

You know how you fix this mess? Its really easy. MONEY!

Jazz?

cut the first 4 years off the pay scale and throw them in the garbage. add 30% for inflation and other costs. Make a better commuter schedule/benefit and fix some of our scheduling. Most importantly 5.0 min credit. Throw a couple little things in and Boom. Problem solved.

AC?

Get rid of the four year flat pay. Fix the reserve rules and pay EVERYONE the same wages. None of this rouge/cargo lower pay nonsense and throw some money at the senior pilots so they'll vote for it.

Well said. I'll add some things if I may.

A large percentage of Jazz pilots are commuters, be it by plane, driving their car or taking the train. It's not unusual to see many of them commute from NS, NB or even the prairies. Also "local" pilots drive from as far as Windsor and Ottawa and everything in between. Many also drive in from Barrie. The cost of living in YYZ is so high that nobody can afford to live there anymore, even if you're renting... so whether we like to admit it or not, pilots start venturing further and further away from their base, so they can offer their families a decent place to live.

A lot of these pilots, especially the junior ones, if they live beyond the "2 hr call out" cannot even be on reserve, so they're stuck in their current position until they gain more seniority to get off rezerve. Even if you do get off reserve, there is no guarantee you won't go back on it and even if you hold a block, you'll get the scraps. That means, you'll have a mix of 1, 2, 3 or 4 day pairings. If you live in London, ON. it becomes very expensive, time consuming, not to mention fatiguing to drive 1h 45m each way (350 km round trip), especially if you have to do it 3 to 4 times a week.

Having a crashpad in Toronto is one way to fix that, but many would never conteplate that and renting a private room is so expensive that any extra money you'd make as a new captain (going from senior F/O) would not be able to cover it. So then what's the point of upgrading? Many chose to stay on a senior F/Os with a good schedule and be able to do away with crashpads.

[Loon-A-Tic]

IMO the cheapest solution is a seniority one. Nothing close to DOH but maybe 1-2 years or something. Jazz doesn’t want to pay pilots more so it’s cheaper to grow the carrot.

That is a terrible idea. No one at AC wants Jazz pilots accruing seniority there and most of us at jazz that wanted to stick around don't give a flying hoot about AC seniority. Its only a minor incentive to attract 250hr college kids, which, is not who we need. Neither group wants this and it opens up too many variables and will allow the companies to whipsaw us.

You know how you fix this mess? Its really easy. MONEY!

Jazz?

cut the first 4 years off the pay scale and throw them in the garbage. add 30% for inflation and other costs. Make a better commuter schedule/benefit and fix some of our scheduling. Most importantly 5.0 min credit. Throw a couple little things in and Boom. Problem solved.

AC?

Get rid of the four year flat pay. Fix the reserve rules and pay EVERYONE the same wages. None of this rouge/cargo lower pay nonsense and throw some money at the senior pilots so they'll vote for it.

Well said. I'll add some things if I may.

A large percentage of Jazz pilots are commuters, be it by plane, driving their car or taking the train. It's not unusual to see many of them commute from NS, NB or even the prairies. Also "local" pilots drive from as far as Windsor and Ottawa and everything in between. Many also drive in from Barrie. The cost of living in YYZ is so high that nobody can afford to live there anymore, even if you're renting... so whether we like to admit it or not, pilots start venturing further and further away from their base, so they can offer their families a decent place to live.

A lot of these pilots, especially the junior ones, if they live beyond the "2 hr call out" cannot even be on reserve, so they're stuck in their current position until they gain more seniority to get off rezerve. Even if you do get off reserve, there is no guarantee you won't go back on it and even if you hold a block, you'll get the scraps. That means, you'll have a mix of 1, 2, 3 or 4 day pairings. If you live in London, ON. it becomes very expensive, time consuming, not to mention fatiguing to drive 1h 45m each way (350 km round trip), especially if you have to do it 3 to 4 times a week.

Having a crashpad in Toronto is one way to fix that, but many would never conteplate that and renting a private room is so expensive that any extra money you'd make as a new captain (going from senior F/O) would not be able to cover it. So then what's the point of upgrading? Many chose to stay on a senior F/Os with a good schedule and be able to do away with crashpads.

Just to circle back to and older discussion; a "command" upgrade cannot be "forced" on a senior FO either, even if they hold ATPL license.

[Rowdy]

All good points.

The commuting this is a real issue for many. We have lots that commute from the prairies, island and interior as they choose a better lifestyle with a lower cost of living. It's not easy!

I'm an hour and thirty drive from one of the most expensive bases in the country. It was all I could afford. Pretty pathetic as an 'airline captain' who was only able to manage that through years of investing and a small sum from an injury.

I honestly don't think a new captain, or anyone hired post 2015 could afford to buy a single family home near YYZ or YVR. Heck even YYC and YUL are climbing in price. Most are forced into WDO's and overtime just to make ends meet. Hard to do with a 2hr drive each way for some or a lengthy by air commute($).

That could be a good add on in addition to increases in pay and a higher min daily credit.

[rudder]

All good points.

The commuting this is a real issue for many. We have lots that commute from the prairies, island and interior as they choose a better lifestyle with a lower cost of living. It's not easy!

I'm an hour and thirty drive from one of the most expensive bases in the country. It was all I could afford. Pretty pathetic as an 'airline captain' who was only able to manage that through years of investing and a small sum from an injury.

I honestly don't think a new captain, or anyone hired post 2015 could afford to buy a single family home near YYZ or YVR. Heck even YYC and YUL are climbing in price. Most are forced into WDO's and overtime just to make ends meet. Hard to do with a 2hr drive each way for some or a lengthy by air commute($).

That could be a good add on in addition to increases in pay and a higher min daily credit.

The US majors are starting to do that for mainline pilots.

Difference is Jazz does NOT own the seats that it flies.

[Rowdy]

Yes rudder,

But AC owns a good chunk of CHR and Jazz. They just don't like playing nicely.

[cdnavater]

Yes rudder,

But AC owns a good chunk of CHR and Jazz. They just don't like playing nicely.

However, regardless of the AC ownership, if they give something to Jazz pilots like a free commute they would most certainly do the same for AC pilots.
As a commuter I would welcome a less stressful and free commute and it would actually make a significant difference in my life. For example, I have had to go to work up to two days before I needed to be there because of the policy.
Two flight and reasonable expectation of getting to work is not always easy to follow day of or even the day before, I have lost many days off to this over the years. I feel for those without a policy.

[Rowdy]

Yes rudder,

But AC owns a good chunk of CHR and Jazz. They just don't like playing nicely.

However, regardless of the AC ownership, if they give something to Jazz pilots like a free commute they would most certainly do the same for AC pilots.
As a commuter I would welcome a less stressful and free commute and it would actually make a significant difference in my life. For example, I have had to go to work up to two days before I needed to be there because of the policy.
Two flight and reasonable expectation of getting to work is not always easy to follow day of or even the day before, I have lost many days off to this over the years. I feel for those without a policy.

I was meaning it would be a good policy change for both AC and Jazz. I was sad to see WJ ditch it's portal system. Does AC even have the commute policy we have at Jazz?

There are a bunch of US airlines and regionals that PAY the commute (POS) and if you can't make the flight home, you get a hotel.

[kiaszceski]

Yes rudder,

But AC owns a good chunk of CHR and Jazz. They just don't like playing nicely.

However, regardless of the AC ownership, if they give something to Jazz pilots like a free commute they would most certainly do the same for AC pilots.
As a commuter I would welcome a less stressful and free commute and it would actually make a significant difference in my life. For example, I have had to go to work up to two days before I needed to be there because of the policy.
Two flight and reasonable expectation of getting to work is not always easy to follow day of or even the day before, I have lost many days off to this over the years. I feel for those without a policy.

I was meaning it would be a good policy change for both AC and Jazz. I was sad to see WJ ditch it's portal system. Does AC even have the commute policy we have at Jazz?

There are a bunch of US airlines and regionals that PAY the commute (POS) and if you can't make the flight home, you get a hotel.

This is what should have happened if pilots had the guts to strike.
https://www.aviation24.be/airports/berl ... wednesday/

[702pipeliner]

Lmao. Can't strike even if you wanted to. Government always gets involved and prevents a strike. Look at harper and air canada. Trudeau and ontario teachers.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Lmao. Can't strike even if you wanted to. Government always gets involved and prevents a strike. Look at harper and air canada. Trudeau and ontario teachers.

Yup. Might last a day on the picket line before someone says back to work or you’ll get a daily fine. Not to mention jazz cannot strike until 2035.

[truedude]

Lmao. Can't strike even if you wanted to. Government always gets involved and prevents a strike. Look at harper and air canada. Trudeau and ontario teachers.

Yup. Might last a day on the picket line before someone says back to work or you’ll get a daily fine. Not to mention jazz cannot strike until 2035.

You don't need to officially strike to have an impact. Jazz pilots in 2010 managed to get the company to reverse their nonsense without striking.

YYZ AC rampies initiated a wildcat strike on the 00's, which was rather successful.

A letter written by a Continental pilot in the 80s has been circling in some circles, and one quote in particular stood out to me, "They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum."

There is nothing worse than a workforce that feels unappreciated, ignored, or marginalized. The effects may not be immediately quantifiable by an accountant, but will cost more than any raise in the long run.

More pilots just gave notice to Jazz, going to places not AC. Full lines that will now need to be covered in February. People leaving in the middle of training... Must be getting expensive...

By the way, I am not endorsing or encouraging any illegal job action. We don't need to. It is falling apart on its own through gross incompetence at the executive level.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Lmao. Can't strike even if you wanted to. Government always gets involved and prevents a strike. Look at harper and air canada. Trudeau and ontario teachers.

Yup. Might last a day on the picket line before someone says back to work or you’ll get a daily fine. Not to mention jazz cannot strike until 2035.

You don't need to officially strike to have an impact. Jazz pilots in 2010 managed to get the company to reverse their nonsense without striking.

YYZ AC rampies initiated a wildcat strike on the 00's, which was rather successful.

A letter written by a Continental pilot in the 80s has been circling in some circles, and one quote in particular stood out to me, "They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum."

There is nothing worse than a workforce that feels unappreciated, ignored, or marginalized. The effects may not be immediately quantifiable by an accountant, but will cost more than any raise in the long run.

More pilots just gave notice to Jazz, going to places not AC. Full lines that will now need to be covered in February. People leaving in the middle of training... Must be getting expensive...

By the way, I am not endorsing or encouraging any illegal job action. We don't need to. It is falling apart on its own through gross incompetence at the executive level.

You’re not wrong.

Like you said, an unappreciated work force is poison for the company. And yes, doing the minimum required of you might be a way to make the company incur extra costs which may or may not bring the company to the table.(also I’m not endorsing this behavior)

But personally, I can only tolerate so much low morale and lack of enthusiasm for so long. It bogs me down. When management treats their staff well, it’s proven to increase profitability. Unfortunately, some airlines seem to have partly forgotten that.

[truedude]

Yup. Might last a day on the picket line before someone says back to work or you’ll get a daily fine. Not to mention jazz cannot strike until 2035.

You don't need to officially strike to have an impact. Jazz pilots in 2010 managed to get the company to reverse their nonsense without striking.

YYZ AC rampies initiated a wildcat strike on the 00's, which was rather successful.

A letter written by a Continental pilot in the 80s has been circling in some circles, and one quote in particular stood out to me, "They used to enjoy my maximum. Now they will suffer my minimum."

There is nothing worse than a workforce that feels unappreciated, ignored, or marginalized. The effects may not be immediately quantifiable by an accountant, but will cost more than any raise in the long run.

More pilots just gave notice to Jazz, going to places not AC. Full lines that will now need to be covered in February. People leaving in the middle of training... Must be getting expensive...

By the way, I am not endorsing or encouraging any illegal job action. We don't need to. It is falling apart on its own through gross incompetence at the executive level.

You’re not wrong.

Like you said, an unappreciated work force is poison for the company. And yes, doing the minimum required of you might be a way to make the company incur extra costs which may or may not bring the company to the table.(also I’m not endorsing this behavior)

But personally, I can only tolerate so much low morale and lack of enthusiasm for so long. It bogs me down. When management treats their staff well, it’s proven to increase profitability. Unfortunately, some airlines seem to have partly forgotten that.

The thing is, people will start doing the minimum without actually consciously trying to do the minimum. They will feel deflated, exhausted, and as a result, people will slowly stop going above on beyond. The result is achieved simply through being treated with an obvious level of contempt.

Failing to honour the 60% flow was likely the single biggest mistake anyone could have made. That alone likely cost Air Canada more than any raise would have.

[mmm...bacon]

Yup. Might last a day on the picket line before someone says back to work or you’ll get a daily fine. Not to mention jazz cannot strike until 2035.

Just asking, but if AC/Jazz isn't honouring the 60% hiring, then why should/would pilots honour the 'no strike 'til '35' clause?

[goleafsgo]

Yup. Might last a day on the picket line before someone says back to work or you’ll get a daily fine. Not to mention jazz cannot strike until 2035.

Just asking, but if AC/Jazz isn't honouring the 60% hiring, then why should/would pilots honour the 'no strike 'til '35' clause?

Because that’s not a clause, it would be illegal to strike while still having a contract in place.

[truedude]

Because that’s not a clause, it would be illegal to strike while still having a contract in place.

You mean the legal contract that is being ignored and violated?

In any case, you don't need to strike, the place is coming unglued at the seems everyday, and it will only get worse before it gets better. The pilots don't need to go on strike, or take any job action, because management has done a pretty good job of destroying the airline without our help.

The only thing the pilots need to do is stand by our current contract (which the company wanted and required we sign to 2035) until such a time they are prepared to make meaningful changes. Something in line with the Horizon payscale. Anything less is simply insulting.

[rando]

Walmart employees, with no union and with no negotiating, given a 15 percent raise (U.S. stores, nationwide). Watching closely as American workforce’s are keeping up with or exceeding inflation.

E04DA608-528A-4F99-8732-5ACB487C8EB1.jpeg (155.42 KiB) Viewed 2497 times

Here in canada…

[truedude]

By the way, this is Horizons pay scale. To fly the same airplanes we do.

Year Captain First Officer
1 $149.18 $90.00
2 $153.00 $97.50
3 $156.83 $105.00
4 $160.65 $108.75
5 $168.30
6 $172.14
7 $175.95
8 $179.78
9 $183.60
10 $191.25
11 $195.08
12 $198.90
13 $202.73
14 $206.55
15 $210.38
16 $215.00


This is what we are worth. Not one penny less. And it is time Canadian airlines realize this. Fight for what we are worth. Demand what you are worth. Settle for nothing less. Until then, smile as you continue to operate under the contract that the company shoved down our throats until 2035, and joyfully remind them it is what they wanted. And do not give them an inch, until they are prepared to pay what we are worth.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Yup. Might last a day on the picket line before someone says back to work or you’ll get a daily fine. Not to mention jazz cannot strike until 2035.

Just asking, but if AC/Jazz isn't honouring the 60% hiring, then why should/would pilots honour the 'no strike 'til '35' clause?

Because Unlawful strikes are well…… unlawful.

That includes any “work to rule” campaigns, or a concerted effort to ban OT pickups.

http://www.cirb-ccri.gc.ca/eic/site/047 ... 00104.html

Canada Labour Code

Violating a section of the CBA, should be resolved in grievances and mediation.

[truedude]

Because Unlawful strikes are well…… unlawful.

That includes any “work to rule” campaigns, or a concerted effort to ban OT pickups.

http://www.cirb-ccri.gc.ca/eic/site/047 ... 00104.html

Canada Labour Code

Violating a section of the CBA, should be resolved in grievances and mediation.

Maybe you should read that Continental letter from the 80s. Here is a quote from it "I am an army of one. Or two. Or three hundred."

Moral is is low it doesn't take any organized action to achieve the same results. People are jumping ship, and the entire company has a stank that is keeping others from coming.

And it was accomplished simply by management thinking they could outplay the pilots and not honor the flow. Thinking they could try and offer measly sums of money to patch a few holes when they have slammed into an iceberg.

It will only get worse until management is prepared to come to the table in a meaningful way. Until then... well we keep shrinking. How small do we get is up to those holding the money.