Airline Upgrades

[Turboprops]

You keep saying flight instructors are being hired DEC on king airs/metros, please just name a few companies doing that.

Fast Air and Perimeter in CYWG have done it.

I'd wager that every medevac operator has at least tried it in the last 5 years (minus covid years).

Last place I worked all external hired instructors struggled through FO flight training, some don’t even make it through the sims, it was a metro operator.

Proper training would be like a full year of line indoc for this guy, at which point it’s basically do a year of right seat and upgrade, and costs way too much.

Was he a particular sub par pilot? Or is your assumption that every instructor would need at least a year of right seat flying in order to be competent?

Maybe he was told a quick upgrade, but that’s not DEC.

DEC sure is a quick upgrade
That's more of a philosophical question at this point I guess

But yes, I agree quick upgrade doesn't imply DEC at all. Then again, many years ago, if they told me I would get a quick upgrade during my interview, and then before my training starts I have the option of getting DEC? I'd probably have taken it as well.

Remember, people *without* ATPL are offered metro captain spots nowadays. Big difference in aircraft size, but not so different in decision making skills.

To answer some of your question, he failed the captain sim evaluation,

I'm unfamiliar with the specifics of the training process at Jazz. Is the 'captain sim evaluation' you refer to the first checkride you do, basically a left seat typerating?

Or is it a command course type of evaluation?

Did he get a second try for the eval? Do new hires usually get a second try if they fail the first eval?

had absolutely zero experience outside of an FTU before coming to Jazz.

Do you think there are any training programs on planet earth that’ll prepare him to be a CRJ captain?

If instructors can succesfully be taught how to be PIC flying NDB approaches without support into snowstorms up north with minimal support and flat out wrong information about runway condition and weather reports, then yes, it should be possible to have those same people fly from pavement A to pavement B in a fairly rigidly controlled environment.

The consequences for failure are much higher, but it does not require more decision making skills IMO.

Will they be as efficient as a higher, more experienced pilot initially? Perhaps (likely?) not. Will OTP suffer? Perhaps. But that's a purely economical decision from the airline ops team: do you pay more to get 705 experience and have better OTP, or do you pay less while giving instructors a chance
to do the job and accept that they will be operating in a new environment?

I worked at Perimeter lol and I’ll tell you they don’t hire flight instructors straight to left seat of a metro. I think I know who you’re referring to but that’s just not true. There’s a CA sim eval at Perimeter as well, and a lot of FOs with time on type fail.

I would also assume every flight instructor would need some time in the right seat before the upgrade, is it a full year or maybe 6 months or two years I don’t know.

The PIC assessment at Jazz is a command assessment, not a left seat PPC. I don’t know why you’re defending this guy, it doesn’t matter if the company’s stupid or not, he should’ve just taken the FO position with his background.

[digits_]

The PIC assessment at Jazz is a command assessment, not a left seat PPC. I don’t know why you’re defending this guy, it doesn’t matter if the company’s stupid or not, he should’ve just taken the FO position with his background.

I'm not particularly defending this pilot. I just don't agree with the blanket statement that no 1500 hour FI would be able to pass the training/assessment. Blanket statements like that highly color one's opinion of the candidate before you've even met them. trained them or evaluated them. It's fairly impossible to beat those stereotypes, even if you would be a competent candidate.

That's not just Jazz specific, it's a general thing.

It's only human I suppose to think 'Jeesh, I had 5000 hours before I went left seat, I wouldn't have been comfortable flying left seat, so the minimum for this position should be 5000 hours for DEC'
Then someone else gets hired with 4000 hours and goes through the same logic, concluding you need 4000 hours for DEC.
Then a 3000 hour pilot gets hired, and the same flow happens again.
And all those pilots are sure that it would be irresponsible to hire someone with less hours for a DEC spot, all the while forgetting that 20 years ago they themselves wouldn't have been upgraded, because the old 10 000 hour pilot going left seat at the time couldn't possibly believe the job could be done safely with less hours.


If he's given an honest chance and he fails, obviously don't give him the position. But give him an honest chance if the rules allow him to attempt it. People sometimes surprise you if you give them a chance.

Thinking back on the first years of my aviation career I was given jobs for which I would have been deemed unqualified by AvCanada consensus. For those same jobs today, I would be overqualified. Did these jobs get easier? No, just the perception changed, because employers didn't have any applicants meeting their desired experience level. They had to take a chance, and planes didn't fall out of the sky, establishing the new normal.

[Turboprops]

They had to take a chance, and planes didn't fall out of the sky, establishing the new normal.

So we’ll wait for a crash before we say this is a bad idea, brilliant approach!

This person went through the exact same training as every other DEC, you don’t get special treatment because you lack the experience. He was told he could still go for an FO spot, but he declined. Oh well

[C-GGGQ]

They had to take a chance, and planes didn't fall out of the sky, establishing the new normal.

So we’ll wait for a crash before we say this is a bad idea, brilliant approach!

This person went through the exact same training as every other DEC, you don’t get special treatment because you lack the experience. He was told he could still go for an FO spot, but he declined. Oh well

Ok the original comment made it sound like he failed the Captain ride and was canned. If he chose not to take FO then thats on him.

[digits_]

They had to take a chance, and planes didn't fall out of the sky, establishing the new normal.

So we’ll wait for a crash before we say this is a bad idea, brilliant approach!

Take a look at how often a similar statement has been expressed here on avcanada, every time experience requirements have dropped. The aviation apocalypse hasn't happened (yet). At some point someone will be right. I don't think we're there yet. Others disagree.

This person went through the exact same training as every other DEC, you don’t get special treatment because you lack the experience.

If he got the exact same treatment, then that's great.

Do all DEC candidates get (I quote) pulled " in to the office to firmly suggest that this was not how things were done and that he should seriously reconsider his bid." ?

If your manager or training department tells you (I paraphrase) 'you will fail the training', are you *really* getting the same treatment as the other candidates?

He was told he could still go for an FO spot, but he declined. Oh well

That's nice of the company!

[Turboprops]

Just to clarify, he was told “throughout” training that he can still change his mind and take a FO spot. He didn’t. Ended up not passing the PIC assessment and that was the end of his employment at Jazz. I don’t believe he was offered an FO spot again “after” that failure.

[digits_]

Just to clarify, he was told “throughout” training that he can still change his mind and take a FO spot. He didn’t. Ended up not passing the PIC assessment and that was the end of his employment at Jazz. I don’t believe he was offered an FO spot again “after” that failure.

Does the PIC assessment happen before or after the PPC ride, or is it part of it?

[genetic jack hammer]

Just to clarify, he was told “throughout” training that he can still change his mind and take a FO spot. He didn’t. Ended up not passing the PIC assessment and that was the end of his employment at Jazz. I don’t believe he was offered an FO spot again “after” that failure.

Does the PIC assessment happen before or after the PPC ride, or is it part of it?

The PIC assessment is done after all you training is complete, it's the final step before the PPC. If you pass the assessment, you get recommended for the PPC, which you'd still have to pass. From what I've been told, the candidate was given a cut off date, whereby he/she could decide not to take the DEC position, and opt for an F/O spot. The fact that it got to the assessment tells you that they thought they'd make it through.

[digits_]

Just to clarify, he was told “throughout” training that he can still change his mind and take a FO spot. He didn’t. Ended up not passing the PIC assessment and that was the end of his employment at Jazz. I don’t believe he was offered an FO spot again “after” that failure.

Does the PIC assessment happen before or after the PPC ride, or is it part of it?

The PIC assessment is done after all you training is complete, it's the final step before the PPC. If you pass the assessment, you get recommended for the PPC, which you'd still have to pass. From what I've been told, the candidate was given a cut off date, whereby he/she could decide not to take the DEC position, and opt for an F/O spot. The fact that it got to the assessment tells you that they thought they'd make it through.

Thank you for clarifying!

[nohojob]

The pic assessement could be very different from a ppc. The ppc is basically always the same. V1 cut, reject, cat 3, going around...
Assessement could be a LOFT which is like a normal flight and suddenly they add a malfunction or a situation, and you have to deal with in real time. I think this exercise challenges more your experience than the ppc.
There is a lot more thinking into it.

[cdnavater]

They had to take a chance, and planes didn't fall out of the sky, establishing the new normal.

So we’ll wait for a crash before we say this is a bad idea, brilliant approach!

This person went through the exact same training as every other DEC, you don’t get special treatment because you lack the experience. He was told he could still go for an FO spot, but he declined. Oh well

Not true, the instructor in question was fired, refused to own it and blamed everybody but himself.
There are others who bid DEC who didn’t make it but were given the opportunity to go right seat.
The problem is, it’s not a simple, you didn’t pass the command sim so you go right seat. It takes a new training plan because all the training up to this point was left seat, no right seat flows or procedures and adds cost to the initial training.
Without consequences, everyone with a bare ATPL will bud DEC and say oh well, I didn’t make it I’ll just go right seat.
It’s now made clear to new hires that if you bid a DEC spot and don’t make it, your job is not guaranteed. The contract states if you don’t pass the upgrade you can go back to your previous position which for new hires was elsewhere.

As for the insinuation that the instructor was biased and failed him, a new hire will potentially have 15 different instructors for their initial course.
As for how many attempts at the command sim, it depends on how bad it was but I believe if you attempt a second try and fail, you are prohibited from attempting for another two years.
Most will go back to the right seat and try again next bid.

[Turboprops]

Not true, the instructor in question was fired, refused to own it and blamed everybody but himself.
There are others who bid DEC who didn’t make it but were given the opportunity to go right seat.

Basically what I clarified above, he was offered FO spot “before” the PIC assessment, not after. He really thought he’d make it

[co-joe]

...
Do all DEC candidates get (I quote) pulled " in to the office to firmly suggest that this was not how things were done and that he should seriously reconsider his bid." ?

I highly doubt if you came with 1000 jet PIC on a similar type you'd be asked not to bid Captain. Probably more the opposite, they'd kindly suggest that your talents are being wasted in the right seat. That said being as a Captain, the aircraft handling is often the easy part. SOPs, and company procedures, under stress of SIM failures, where to look for the information you need quickly takes a lot of preparation. 6 months in the right seat is the easy way to pick that up, and anyone can pooch a ride, so being off probation first guarantees the union can help you.

[tbayav8er]

Deleted the first part of my post, as I found the answer after reading back a few posts.

And for the original post - When I was at Encore, it was based on seniority, and when you met the requirements of the matrix. Although the requirements of the matrix have changed somewhat recently. When I did the upgrade, I think I needed 1000 or so hours on type or something like that. It depended what your total time was. The upgrade was also no joke. You needed to be pretty darn sharp on every possible situation you could be faced with when you went through the upgrade sims. As it should be....

[RockSalty]

Not ballsy, stupid. Didn't know that he didn't know shit, and now he's left with shit.

Perhaps. He is likely back at his old job making more money

He was probably told in the interview that he could expect a quick upgrade having an ATPL.

Is it stupid that he attempted the course, or is it stupid the company underpays their pilots which allowed this situation to occur?

Also note that ATPL instructor holders are intentionally hired for DEC King air and Metro positions. Something that would have been called equally stupid 5 or 10 years ago. And they operate successfully and safely.

I am sure that with proper training (and probably longer/more training than currently allotted) some 1500 hour instructors would be capable of passing the course and safely executing the job.

You keep saying flight instructors are being hired DEC on king airs/metros, please just name a few companies doing that. Last place I worked all external hired instructors struggled through FO flight training, some don’t even make it through the sims, it was a metro operator.

Proper training would be like a full year of line indoc for this guy, at which point it’s basically do a year of right seat and upgrade, and costs way too much.

Maybe he was told a quick upgrade, but that’s not DEC.

To answer some of your question, he failed the captain sim evaluation, had absolutely zero experience outside of an FTU before coming to Jazz. Do you think there are any training programs on planet earth that’ll prepare him to be a CRJ captain?

Captains are about making the right decisions, and he made a very stupid decision right off the bat.

I’m one of those instructors hired as DEC at a medevac op. Wasn’t easy but the company and I both knew what we were getting into and planned things out accordingly to make sure everything worked out.

That being said a king air or metro is a completely different ball game to a 76 seat jet lol

[cdnavater]

They had to take a chance, and planes didn't fall out of the sky, establishing the new normal.

So we’ll wait for a crash before we say this is a bad idea, brilliant approach!

Take a look at how often a similar statement has been expressed here on avcanada, every time experience requirements have dropped. The aviation apocalypse hasn't happened (yet). At some point someone will be right. I don't think we're there yet. Others disagree.

This person went through the exact same training as every other DEC, you don’t get special treatment because you lack the experience.

If he got the exact same treatment, then that's great.

Do all DEC candidates get (I quote) pulled " in to the office to firmly suggest that this was not how things were done and that he should seriously reconsider his bid." ?

If your manager or training department tells you (I paraphrase) 'you will fail the training', are you *really* getting the same treatment as the other candidates?

He was told he could still go for an FO spot, but he declined. Oh well

That's nice of the company!

The pilot in question was not brought in because of bidding DEC, they were hired and bid it in the new hire class on day three of orientation week.
If, I say if because this is the first I’ve heard of this, so if they were brought in to discuss going FO instead it was due to the fact the training wasn’t going well, which is something I can say did happen.
There were a few in that first class of DEC that struggled including one with significant time and I don’t know how many were successful but I know of three for sure that are currently FOs.
6 months or so in the right seat will almost ensure success the next time around but still not a guarantee. There is such a thing as lifetime FO

[schnitzel2k3]

Perhaps flying airliners in a well managed and monitored 705 operation isn't as difficult as we made it out to be. The years of need 5000 hours to command a Navajo, let alone a Beechcraft are bye bye.

Just because it took Gen X and Gen Y took years to build up time and experience to be competitive for certain jobs, but Gen Z can walk right in out of school and do the same thing doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be done. It sucks but life ain't fair.

Next step is apparently single pilot. Question is, are we ready for that?

[Jimmy91]

Just got an offer at Jazz with 2100 TT with ATPL and 703 medevac experience. Jazz head of recruiter on the phone said they are short on captains and mentioned that the Ops team have created a custom training program for some candidates where they would spend 5-6 mnths right seat and undergo upgrade and fly with training captain for a bit longer to gain the required experience. Has anyone ever heard of this actually happening? Thanks in advance