Hours of Averaging

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Anyone here working on this schedule?

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I’m really surprised nobody has replied to this

[schnitzel2k3]

Apologies Bug, I don't think I or anyone else understands what information you were seeking.

What do you mean by hours averaging?

Annual hours we do? 258 on 12 hours on call.

[schnitzel2k3]

.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Apologies Bug, I don't think I or anyone else understands what information you were seeking.

What do you mean by hours averaging?

Annual hours we do? 258 on 12 hours on call.

Hours of averaging basically means the employer can work your ass as hard as they want without paying overtime until three months after the fiscal year end if you so wish (or are permitted) to be paid out and not forced on time off (hour for hour not hour to 1.5 hours that should be banked). It’s a very abusive system mostly bad employers use and have to reapply for annually to implement legally.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... hours.html

[Big Pistons Forever]

When I worked as a firebomber pilot the company used this provision. We worked a minimum 10 hour day everyday on straight time, except for the CAR 702 3 in 30 days off for 4 months but then had 8 months off.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

When I worked as a firebomber pilot the company used this provision. We worked a minimum 10 hour day everyday on straight time, except for the CAR 702 3 in 30 days off for 4 months but then had 8 months off.

That’s legitimate as a seasonal job. I don’t think the guys running this schedule 365 days a year should be tho

[schnitzel2k3]

Apologies Bug, I don't think I or anyone else understands what information you were seeking.

What do you mean by hours averaging?

Annual hours we do? 258 on 12 hours on call.

Hours of averaging basically means the employer can work your ass as hard as they want without paying overtime until three months after the fiscal year end if you so wish (or are permitted) to be paid out and not forced on time off (hour for hour not hour to 1.5 hours that should be banked). It’s a very abusive system mostly bad employers use and have to reapply for annually to implement legally.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... hours.html

Never seen a minute of overtime oaid out, we were working on a system to compensate for charter but that never transpired.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

When I worked as a firebomber pilot the company used this provision. We worked a minimum 10 hour day everyday on straight time, except for the CAR 702 3 in 30 days off for 4 months but then had 8 months off.

“ While the requirement to pay overtime is reviewed at the end of an averaging period, there are two types of flexibility allowed by averaging, both of which may be available to an employer:

removal of the requirement to pay overtime after eight hours in a given day or 40 hours in a given week, or both, and,
removal of the limit of 48 hours of work in a given week.”

People should be well aware of what this means before signing onto a contract where this is implemented. It’s taxing, I’ve only ever done it once for a year and a half and it was taxing.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Apologies Bug, I don't think I or anyone else understands what information you were seeking.

What do you mean by hours averaging?

Annual hours we do? 258 on 12 hours on call.

Hours of averaging basically means the employer can work your ass as hard as they want without paying overtime until three months after the fiscal year end if you so wish (or are permitted) to be paid out and not forced on time off (hour for hour not hour to 1.5 hours that should be banked). It’s a very abusive system mostly bad employers use and have to reapply for annually to implement legally.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... hours.html

Never seen a minute of overtime oaid out, we were working on a system to compensate for charter but that never transpired.

Just saw this, so you were on salary?

[schnitzel2k3]

Hours of averaging basically means the employer can work your ass as hard as they want without paying overtime until three months after the fiscal year end if you so wish (or are permitted) to be paid out and not forced on time off (hour for hour not hour to 1.5 hours that should be banked). It’s a very abusive system mostly bad employers use and have to reapply for annually to implement legally.

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... hours.html

Never seen a minute of overtime oaid out, we were working on a system to compensate for charter but that never transpired.

Just saw this, so you were on salary?

Yup.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Never seen a minute of overtime oaid out, we were working on a system to compensate for charter but that never transpired.

Just saw this, so you were on salary?

Yup.

Did you ever go over 48 hours in a week or 2080 in a year?

[Crossthreaded]

My first job was a straight day rate and they worked me 16 hours a day. Small float operator and slept in the hangar. I burnt out in under a year and moved onto a larger shop that did hours of averaging, but paid out overtime every two months iirc. I always opted for time off near the end, too much work not enough life. And they gave us “time in lieu” every hour worked over 40 hours a week banked was taken off at a straight hour not 1.5 hours. I remember all the ames complaining about it to this day, but the gm assured us it was legal and showed us the printout from the labour code. I’ll never do that again, I’m now contracting and love it

[Bug_Stomper_01]

My first job was a straight day rate and they worked me 16 hours a day. Small float operator and slept in the hangar. I burnt out in under a year and moved onto a larger shop that did hours of averaging, but paid out overtime every two months iirc. I always opted for time off near the end, too much work not enough life. And they gave us “time in lieu” every hour worked over 40 hours a week banked was taken off at a straight hour not 1.5 hours. I remember all the ames complaining about it to this day, but the gm assured us it was legal and showed us the printout from the labour code. I’ll never do that again, I’m now contracting and love it

That is hours of averaging abuse

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I just found this, provincial I know however some employers like to pick and choose the laws they follow provincially vs federally (even though we’re a federally regulated industry)

https://files.ontario.ca/mol-infosheet/ ... -06-19.pdf

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Bumping this post just to see who else out there is under this system.

[Col. Panic]

I have never personally been in a position that used this, but I know it is used for some rotational positions, where you might work 120-196 hours in one two week period, then zero in the next. Or a less extreme example, a former company had some employees on a 4 day on/4 day off schedule. So hours of averaging was used over 4 weeks, although there was still an overtime trigger if you worked over a certain number of hours on any given day.

Used properly, it can be used as a method to keep work “fair” for those who don’t work the typical 9-5 Monday-Friday. But it seems it can also be abused!

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I have never personally been in a position that used this, but I know it is used for some rotational positions, where you might work 120-196 hours in one two week period, then zero in the next. Or a less extreme example, a former company had some employees on a 4 day on/4 day off schedule. So hours of averaging was used over 4 weeks, although there was still an overtime trigger if you worked over a certain number of hours on any given day.

Used properly, it can be used as a method to keep work “fair” for those who don’t work the typical 9-5 Monday-Friday. But it seems it can also be abused!

It is almost exclusively abused in Canadian aviation. My advise to anyone that finds themselves looking at a job or getting roped into this types of employment after the fact is to get out!

[C-GGGQ]

Worked at an employer that had it. We worked 7 on 7 off. 12 hrs airport standby. Or 14 if you were airborne past your “shift” end. So by my math thats a minimum of 84 hrs every two weeks or 2184 hrs a year vs 2080 at 80 for two weeks. Often to 14 or 15 so how the F does it “average”??? Basically companies apply and the people authorizing don’t know enough about aviation to know its a lie

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Worked at an employer that had it. We worked 7 on 7 off. 12 hrs airport standby. Or 14 if you were airborne past your “shift” end. So by my math thats a minimum of 84 hrs every two weeks or 2184 hrs a year vs 2080 at 80 for two weeks. Often to 14 or 15 so how the F does it “average”??? Basically companies apply and the people authorizing don’t know enough about aviation to know its a lie

The averaging means they wash out the 1.5x your rate hour for hour you’re off (“time in lieu” these scumbags call it). It’s a scam for full time employees who should rightfully be paid out the 1.5x rate after 40 hours in a week (federal law) not the 44 (provincial). Anywhere that’s not a seasonal employer taking advantage of this is straight up stealing from the employee. If you read the caveats to averaging there is mention of aviation being one of the industries effectually endorsed for the averaging program. However they still have to be seasonal the way I interpret it, not a 365 day/year operation and on call 24/7 ffs!

[Bug_Stomper_01]

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-soc ... hours.html

Some important excerpts;

“Operational necessity
Averaging plans may be adopted when external factors prevent the employer from establishing a regular schedule.”

“Examples of external factors include:

pilots and mechanics of small air operators with irregular hours of work, usually due to climatic conditions”

“Important: Averaging should not be used to address emergencies. This can be addressed using the urgent work provisions under subsection 177(1) of the Code.”


“Workers with regularly scheduled hours
Averaging can only be applied if the scheduled hours of work (not the number of hours actually worked) vary from day to day and week to week.”

[Bug_Stomper_01]

I think a very big takeaway from this thread so far is the general workforce doesn’t know what’s legal with regards to their work contracts / employment situation.

Simplified, if you think you’re being taken advantage of, you probably are. Educate yourself on federal and provincial labour laws.
Ultimately I’d advocate anyone that thinks they’re roped into something shady to spend a few hundred bucks on a consultation with an employment lawyer. Don’t make any drastic decisions until you’ve had legal council.

[PitchLink]

Short of farming or commercial fishing etc this arrangement should be illegal. Again it’s one of those things bad employers use to work you to death and pay you as minimally as possible. Hours of averaging in aviation = Bad employer.

[Bug_Stomper_01]

Short of farming or commercial fishing etc this arrangement should be illegal. Again it’s one of those things bad employers use to work you to death and pay you as minimally as possible. Hours of averaging in aviation = Bad employer.

Affirmative