Thunder Bay airport accident

[sportingrifle]

In addition to some of the conclusions and comments, 1.8 “G” at liftoff shows a stunning lack of understanding of basic aerodynamics.

[digits_]

It’s been a while since I’ve flown a visual departure, aren’t you supposed to climb straight ahead to 500 before making a turn enroute? A steep turn at 45’ would’ve been investigated if a CADORS was issued,

That's a requirement in uncontrolled airports: 500 ft if staying in circuit, 1000ft before proceeding on course.

There's also a sizeable hill in the extended centerline of that runway.

Do you have a reference that defines steep turns and prohibits them after TO?

[piperdriver]

Do you have a reference that defines steep turns and prohibits them after TO?

Well in this specific accident Physics prohibited the steep turn and the takeoff. Common sense > CARS

[Sailtime]

The TSB report should be required reading for every pilot. I hesitated to post my observations after the crash, but they're appropriate now. I saw the first fly-by earlier in the day. He took off and as soon as airborne cranked it right over barely missing the tower. I remember thinking at the time, "geez, that's pretty unnecessary and irresponsible. That's low level airshow type flying." When I heard about the accident, I immediately thought of what I saw earlier in the day and suspected this was similar behaviour gone awry. Sure enough.

I get it, we all want to hot dog every once in a while. But this was well beyond having a bit of fun- this was negligence plain and simple. Let this be a learning experience for the rest of us.

I agree 100%. Very irresponsible and completely unnecessary. This should not have happened at all and certainly should not have been condoned by the controller either. Lack of discipline both in the cockpit and the cab. Ultimately, the pilot is at fault but a bit of the system failed him too.

[digits_]

Do you have a reference that defines steep turns and prohibits them after TO?

Well in this specific accident Physics prohibited the steep turn and the takeoff. Common sense > CARS

Did he do a steep turn, or a regular turn with too much pull up which dropped a wing?

But this exactly my point. A gentle 45 degree steep turn is much safer than an agressive 30 degree bank turn. How can ATC judge this?

[Lost in Saigon]

This was the third time in one day that he pulled off this same “stunt”. There must have been lots of other people who witnessed the first two departures and I am surprised that no one questioned it or reported it.

The first two times he had a forestry air attack officer on board. I would be interested to hear what the air attack officer had to say about it. This pilot had been flying Bird Dog all summer, and I wonder if he had acted this way in the past, or was he just getting over confident late in the season?

Maybe it was just the combination of: 1) No passenger, 2) ATC spectator, and 3) showing off for the Pilot friend in the landing Bearskin aircraft, that made him try to pull off the ultimate departure.

[tbayav8er]

It’s been a while since I’ve flown a visual departure, aren’t you supposed to climb straight ahead to 500 before making a turn enroute? A steep turn at 45’ would’ve been investigated if a CADORS was issued,

That's a requirement in uncontrolled airports: 500 ft if staying in circuit, 1000ft before proceeding on course.

There's also a sizeable hill in the extended centerline of that runway.

Do you have a reference that defines steep turns and prohibits them after TO?

I spent a fair bit of time teaching aerobatics, and it is actually in the CARs. Aerobatics are defined as: a manoeuvre where a change in the attitude of an aircraft results in a bank angle greater than 60 degrees, an abnormal attitude or an abnormal acceleration not incidental to normal flying.

The CARs states that aerobatic manouevres are prohibited in class D control zones unless prior coordination is made with the ATC unit responsible for said control zone. Not sure what that entails though, and if that exchange over the radio would satisfy that rule. I know the bank angle probably didn't intentionally exceed 60 degrees, but I would say an abrupt pull-up and steep turn low to the ground would constitute "an abnormal attitude not incidental to normal flying".

I could be wrong in my logic with this, but I'm open to others' thoughts. RIP to the pilot. Very tragic situation, and it was tough reading the report.

[Donald]

We are taught as pilots early on, that the buck stops with you. If you are working for a boss that pushes you into bad weather, or to fly overweight, we are told that if you crash, the blame will rest with you.

This pilot made a choice to show off, the controller didn't even request it, it was offered.

It's a tragedy, but there's only one person who chose to fly the aircraft in that manner that day.

[pelmet]

This sort of maneuver does happen on occasion at uncontrolled airports but kind of surprising to see it at a controlled airport that gets quite a few airline flights.

[flyinhigh]

The report is out. Typical TSB, “We know a similar profile was intentionally flown twice that day but that’s not the axe we’re here to grind,” but otherwise seems complete enough. I wonder how the trainee controller felt about the whole affair.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0078.html

Oh god ... That's bad ...

I wonder what the communication with the landing aircraft was about. They don't clarify, yet repeat multiple times they knew each other.


Blaming this on the controllers would be a bit misplaced IMO.

It was general banter. The ATC recordings that were released approx 2 days later had the discussion. It would be a very somber feeling to know that your friend you just chatted with crashed, literally 100 ft from you while taxiing.

There was a comment about birddog pilots staying at 500'. Do they not do the steep pull/turn out on fires to direct the tankers where to drop? I saw this happen years ago at a fire in YXL.

I'll keep my opinion to myself on this accident due to the fatality, but that report is an eye opener for young pilots.

[photofly]

It’s been a while since I’ve flown a visual departure, aren’t you supposed to climb straight ahead to 500 before making a turn enroute? A steep turn at 45’ would’ve been investigated if a CADORS was issued,

That's a requirement in uncontrolled airports: 500 ft if staying in circuit, 1000ft before proceeding on course.

There's also a sizeable hill in the extended centerline of that runway.

Do you have a reference that defines steep turns and prohibits them after TO?

Do you have a reference for climbing ahead to 500' if staying in the circuit?

The suggestions of which I'm aware in the AIM are for traffic leaving the circuit: climb ahead to 1000' before turning away from the circuit, or 500' above circuit altitude if departing in the direction of the circuit. But those are not regulations. I'm not aware of any suggestions if remaining in the circuit. I would routinely turn crosswind well below 500'. Otherwise in a small plane in summer you're flying upwind for a full minute before turning, which is absurd.

In fact, flying circuits at 500' maximum is ok, too.

[cykj]

The report is out. Typical TSB, “We know a similar profile was intentionally flown twice that day but that’s not the axe we’re here to grind,” but otherwise seems complete enough. I wonder how the trainee controller felt about the whole affair.

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-repo ... c0078.html

Oh god ... That's bad ...

I wonder what the communication with the landing aircraft was about. They don't clarify, yet repeat multiple times they knew each other.


Blaming this on the controllers would be a bit misplaced IMO.

It was general banter. The ATC recordings that were released approx 2 days later had the discussion. It would be a very somber feeling to know that your friend you just chatted with crashed, literally 100 ft from you while taxiing.

There was a comment about birddog pilots staying at 500'. Do they not do the steep pull/turn out on fires to direct the tankers where to drop? I saw this happen years ago at a fire in YXL.

I'll keep my opinion to myself on this accident due to the fatality, but that report is an eye opener for young pilots.

I flew bird dogs for several years. Generally when leading a tanker to the drop a turn is needed so the Air Attack Officer can see where the drop goes in. I tried to arrange things so I wouldn't have to do more than a 45 deg bank. When I saw other pilots exceeding that I'd suggest to them later that it might not be a good practice.

I can't find any info on it but a bird dog in Alberta crashed at a fire in the 90s and I believe it was considered a stall/spin accident. If anyone has better info on this please reply.

[The Hammer]

It's pretty clear from the report that NavCanada circled the wagons when they stated there's nothing in the MANOPS or SMS to covers this specific items. ie stunting repeatedly. Read the CADORS for a bit and see how many chicken shit CADORS FSS's submit for mundane crap like maneuvering on an uncontrolled apron prior to contacting FSS for an advisory. In most cases it's to get off the gate and FSS is already on the radio.

From reading the report it seems like this wasn't the first day this had happened or the controller and pilot already knew each other. The pilot lived in TBay and had previously worked out of TBay with a local carrier.

As an operator you should see how much time these CADORs waste as TC has elected to use the CADORS system to police their operators because they can't be bothered to get to of their home office and actually get near an airport more than once a week.

There's no way this shouldn't have been reported. TC is in the main terminal so he would have almost been flying over their office twice.

He made the decision to make make a maneuver that led to his demise in the end.

[rookiepilot]

It's pretty clear from the report that NavCanada circled the wagons when they stated there's nothing in the MANOPS or SMS to covers this specific items. ie stunting repeatedly. Read the CADORS for a bit and see how many chicken shit CADORS FSS's submit for mundane crap like maneuvering on an uncontrolled apron prior to contacting FSS for an advisory. In most cases it's to get off the gate and FSS is already on the radio.

From reading the report it seems like this wasn't the first day this had happened or the controller and pilot already knew each other. The pilot lived in TBay and had previously worked out of TBay with a local carrier.

As an operator you should see how much time these CADORs waste as TC has elected to use the CADORS system to police their operators because they can't be bothered to get to of their home office and actually get near an airport more than once a week.

There's no way this shouldn't have been reported. TC is in the main terminal so he would have almost been flying over their office twice.

He made the decision to make make a maneuver that led to his demise in the end.

Ie, the ridiculous pile of Cadors from Langley.......but buzzing the tower 200 feet away, isn't one.

[airway]

It’s been a while since I’ve flown a visual departure, aren’t you supposed to climb straight ahead to 500 before making a turn enroute? A steep turn at 45’ would’ve been investigated if a CADORS was issued,

That's a requirement in uncontrolled airports: 500 ft if staying in circuit, 1000ft before proceeding on course.

There's also a sizeable hill in the extended centerline of that runway.

Do you have a reference that defines steep turns and prohibits them after TO?

Here is the takeoff clearance for the occurrence flight (VFR):

Controller 2 (in training): “Bird Dog one six zero, tower, left or right
turn on departure your choice, winds one nine zero at 6 cleared
takeoff runway one two.”
Occurrence pilot: “Cleared takeoff twelve and I’ll do the left turn
out again, Bird Dog one six zero.”
Controller 2 (in training): “Roger.”

I could not find any reference for minimum altitude to start the turn for a clearance like this at a controlled airport, for a VFR flight. There is reference in the AIM about circuit altitude at a controlled airport:

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Screenshot_20230206_102807.png (79.7 KiB) Viewed 2340 times

and this is for an uncontrolled airport:

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Screenshot_20230206_103339.png (105.58 KiB) Viewed 2340 times

and this is departure procedures at an uncontrolled airport:

Screenshot_20230206_103516.png (31.53 KiB) Viewed 2340 times

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So they use the words "should" instead of "shall", which generally means recommended rather than required. Personally, I try to follow this regardless if it is a should or shall.


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[digits_]

It’s been a while since I’ve flown a visual departure, aren’t you supposed to climb straight ahead to 500 before making a turn enroute? A steep turn at 45’ would’ve been investigated if a CADORS was issued,

That's a requirement in uncontrolled airports: 500 ft if staying in circuit, 1000ft before proceeding on course.

There's also a sizeable hill in the extended centerline of that runway.

Do you have a reference that defines steep turns and prohibits them after TO?

Do you have a reference for climbing ahead to 500' if staying in the circuit?

The suggestions of which I'm aware in the AIM are for traffic leaving the circuit: climb ahead to 1000' before turning away from the circuit, or 500' above circuit altitude if departing in the direction of the circuit. But those are not regulations. I'm not aware of any suggestions if remaining in the circuit. I would routinely turn crosswind well below 500'. Otherwise in a small plane in summer you're flying upwind for a full minute before turning, which is absurd.

In fact, flying circuits at 500' maximum is ok, too.

Looks like I can't find the 500 ft reference. Not sure if it used to be a requirement or if my mind is playing tricks on me.

I can't find anything prohibiting steep turns either though, other than the aerobatics rules mentioned earlier.

[photofly]

The accident discussed in this thread is another example of why the three most dangerous words ever to leave a pilot’s mouth are “here, watch this.”

(The four most dangerous are “pass me that wrench.”)

The only regulations there are about the circuit are a) conform to or avoid the circuit flown by other traffic, and b)all turns to the left unless specified in the CFS. Plus at an airport you have to comply with any other restrictions or procedures listed in the CFS. Otherwise you are free to do what you feel is within the bounds of not reckless or negligent and inside the capabilities of your airplane and skill.