How old is to old to go to AC?

[tango308]

I Just turned 41 and just got the call to start the interview process at AC (application submitted pre-covid), presently I'm at Jazz going on my 5th year.

I'm wondering if I'm too old by AC standards to make this move? Financially it would set me back 5-6 years (almost 50 y.o. at this point).

I also have yound kids and I value the time spent with them. How long would it take me to get some control over my schedule both as an FO and CA? My preference would be to fly narrow-body.

TBH I feel like my QOL would suffer significantly for the next 10 years with the slow rate of retirements and zero-attrition at AC and that I should just hang my hat at Jazz.

I'm wondering if there's some things I'm missing that would tip the balance in AC's favor.

Thank you

[C-GGGQ]

Thats a tough choice. Realistically I doubt you’d ever see left seat of a widebody, but you could still make it to top scale NB captain or senior widebody fo. I guess the real question is is the 4 ish years at top rate before retirement more than more years at top rate at jazz? On the bright side its a great conundrum to be in. No “bad” choice but a “better” choice.

[Rooster69]

Never too old. What triple g q wrote. No bad choices. Just choices.


Last equipment bid in yyz, had bottom 320 and 220 Capts. seniority around 3800. There are about 4600 pilots on seniority list. Maybe more, I was just looking at the yyz numbers. Don’t know what the retirement numbers are forecast to be, but I used to usually use about a 100 retirements a year. New hires are pretty much showing on every equipment as FO.

4 Years flat pay. Ughhh. Painful yes. Any talk about changing flat pay is just talk. Don’t believe anything unless it is in ink in the collective agreement.

Qol: you would have to talk to the pilots who are flying the planes. Pro and cons to wide body Vs narrow body.

[mel gibson]

I Just turned 43 and just got the call to start the interview process at AC (application submitted pre-covid), presently I'm at Jazz going on my 5th year.

I'm wondering if I'm too old by AC standards to make this move? Financially it would set me back 5-6 years (almost 50 y.o. at this point).

I also have yound kids and I value the time spent with them. How long would it take me to get some control over my schedule both as an FO and CA? My preference would be to fly narrow-body.

TBH I feel like my QOL would suffer significantly for the next 10 years with the slow rate of retirements and zero-attrition at AC and that I should just hang my hat at Jazz.

I'm wondering if there's some things I'm missing that would tip the balance in AC's favor.

Thank you




Only YOU can make the decision on your career and your life. Whatever decision YOU make is the right one.

Air Canada wants to have 6000 pilots in the next few years.

There will be around 1200 retirements in the next ten years. Where did you get the no retirements information?

Regional pilots have always been under the microscope by the company to be replaced or kept down.

More career stability in my opinion at Air Canada than Jazz.

The acceptance rate at Air Canada used to be 1 in 4 , it seems now they take everybody.

Senior Jazz pilots who I would never have thought would come to mainline, are now 767 Cargo Captains, making 250 k.

I have flown with so many pilots that are becoming Captains on Narrow body aircraft , starting at least 200 k .Should be more pay like the Americans,making 350 K CAD but still 10-12k a month take home every month is not too bad.

The airline industry changes every 10 years. This decade should be interesting. Good luck.

[rudder]

If the choice is 5th year Jazz or 1st year AC at age 43, I would take AC hands down.

22 years left in your career. Earnings on the AC ledger will be more than double Jazz. Pension benefit earned at AC will be 2-3 times the benefit derived from the Jazz DC plan.

The latest AC bid result projects pilot assigned to NB FO YYZ will be at or above the 50% relative roster seniority in 12-18 months. That mean QOL.

One carrier is a major airline. The other is a CPA vendor. There is virtually no comparison when it comes to job security.

If you are junior left seat at Jazz, you are working too many days with no control over days off. How could it be any worse at AC? (max monthly work days on NB 14/15/16 depending on DMM).

Hopefully 4 years of indentured servitude pay at AC will be replaced by something reflecting industry standard in the round of collective bargaining that will commence later this year.

Your choice is not dissimilar to many Jazz E-jet pilots making the choice between Jazz and Porter. But neither of those offer the job security, career earnings potential, and retirement benefit available at AC.

If you have AC contacts you should reach out directly for factual information. The ACPA CBA is readily available, but understanding how it works in practice is best described by an active participant.

Good luck!

[Stu Pidasso]

Great Post Rudder!

AC hands down, the 4 year shameful embarrassment will end very soon. Commuter or do you live in VR,YZ or UL?

The options are so good at AC, pure life style - Widebody RP.

Love flying, pick the NB that you want to upgrade on.

Plus, I am convinced that the Jazz of today is in for a substantive change and not in a great way.

The tide is finally swinging with the new ACPA, soon to be ALPA , guard

[alkaseltzer]

Never too old.

But with a new “woke” junior union, I would be skeptical of future career prospects. The momentum has slowed down AND changed direction.

Set your expectations low and decide.

Best of luck!

[Transition9er2]

Another Pro is that coming from Jazz you can apply to roll your current pension into AC’s CWIPP. AC’s program is much better and rolling your current pension into the new will allow for improved $$$’s when you retire.

important question was asked above, are you a commuter or live at a pilot base?

[RippleRock]

Never too old.

But with a new “woke” junior union, I would be skeptical of future career prospects. The momentum has slowed down AND changed direction.

Set your expectations low and decide.

Best of luck!

Woke. I guess that's the "new insult" to shout out. Makes zero sense, but hey, an insult is an insult.

Junior Union. What does that mean?

Optimism, hope, "done with getting done", unity, momentum, lines in sand, snap-back, ambition??? These are all things that ACPA didn't have for the Membership. Not one shred. 20 years of garbage horse trading. 20 years of getting routed and fooled. There is no way you or I will ever make up the lost ground....ever.

Do a little research. What "momentum"??? That's rich, unless you count a continual downhill slide "momentum".

What has ACPA done for us lately? Answer, they've worked hard delivering the most divisive WACON in our entire history, provided a spring-board to Management, and only backward, sloppy contracts at best. ACPA has worked hard to engrain "zero sum bargaining" deep into our psyche. We're down to trading scraps of garbage for peanuts, thinking were walking away winners. It's really sad actually. Newsflash....there's nothing left.

Maybe it's time for us "old guys" to get out of the damn way, cuz we've proven only one thing. We can't get $hit done.

Give the "Woke Junior union" (lol) a shot cuz we've proven how utterly useless we are.

[rudder]

Plus, I am convinced that the Jazz of today is in for a substantive change and not in a great way.

Yup. If the choice is “Jazz or …….” make sure to give serious consideration to the ‘or’.

At this point it is not about what is good for the employer. It is about what is good for you. WAWCON at Jazz is making that decision easier and easier. There should be a risk premium associated with pay for working at a CPA carrier, not a risk discount.

[tango308]

Thanks to everyone for your insights, I'll take it all into consideration. I did leave it out, but I would live in one of AC's base (Eastern one).

Indeed, job security is a big item and can't be overlooked. Things are changing rapidly at Jazz, who knows what it could look like in 10 years while AC will always be there. Pension is also important.

Highly appreciated folks.

[Alkasultzer]

The contract at AC opens this year and with the days of the old guard dragging down a global airline below the depths of ULCCs, the pay & QOL will inevitably go up

I am very excited about what this new energy with the pilot group can do moving forward

Exciting times!

[Clearedoncourse]

If the choice is 5th year Jazz or 1st year AC at age 43, I would take AC hands down.

22 years left in your career. Earnings on the AC ledger will be more than double Jazz. Pension benefit earned at AC will be 2-3 times the benefit derived from the Jazz DC plan.

The latest AC bid result projects pilot assigned to NB FO YYZ will be at or above the 50% relative roster seniority in 12-18 months. That mean QOL.

One carrier is a major airline. The other is a CPA vendor. There is virtually no comparison when it comes to job security.

If you are junior left seat at Jazz, you are working too many days with no control over days off. How could it be any worse at AC? (max monthly work days on NB 14/15/16 depending on DMM).

Hopefully 4 years of indentured servitude pay at AC will be replaced by something reflecting industry standard in the round of collective bargaining that will commence later this year.

Your choice is not dissimilar to many Jazz E-jet pilots making the choice between Jazz and Porter. But neither of those offer the job security, career earnings potential, and retirement benefit available at AC.

If you have AC contacts you should reach out directly for factual information. The ACPA CBA is readily available, but understanding how it works in practice is best described by an active participant.

Good luck!

Some good advice there, but I will add a few concerns.

There are many, many, young pilots who have been hired in the last 5-8 years. Many in their 20s. So it will be long career at the bottom of the roster.

This is a big issue that is going to start to cause problems, probably as soon as negotiations begin. The Air Canada pilot group has many divisions, but the difference between those with a defined benefit pension versus “semi” defined contribution pension (CWIPP) is going to cause some issues.

A defined benefit pilot can have a pretty nice career climbing up the roster and staying a senior FO until they can hold a senior Captain position. If they wanted, they could be a 777 RP until they were 60, then be a 777 CA until they retire and get a great pension.

The CWIPP pilot doesn’t have the luxury of having a good schedule sitting on top of their roster because their pension is a function of total earnings. If the CWIPP pilot doesn’t bid for the next higher paying position they can hold, their pension will suffer. Will a CWIPP pilot want to spend their three to four decade career working weekends and holidays to maximize earnings to maximize pension? Conversely, the CWIPP pilot might choose to enjoy being senior and having a good schedule, but their pension will be less as a result.

It seems reasonable that a CWIPP pilot might want a “fair share” system for bidding their schedule and vacation (instead of seniority based) so that they can maximize their earnings and pension, and still have a “fair” schedule (not perfect but not awful). This in contrast to a more senior pilot who has endured the lousy schedule and vacation, and is about to get a great schedule and great vacation only to see the goal posts moved (actually, the goal posts get removed completely).

What portion of pilots at AC are on CWIPP now. My guess is 60%.

This is also about the same number of pilots who are not yet on the top pay scale. If you have less than 12 years at Air Canada, you don’t get paid the top rate on the equipment you fly. Should a pilot with 3 years with Air Canada who is qualified as a B777 FO make less than a B777 FO with 7 years versus another with 12 years? The qualification, skill, responsibility is the same. Should an A320 Captain with 4 years at Air Canada make less than an A320 CA with 12 years? Again, they are equal jobs of equal value.

Here is another iteration at Westjet

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/westjet-pil ... -1.1880659

But at Westjet the issue is should a Sunwing or Swoop or Westjet pilot (presumably on this B737) be paid a different rate

“At issue for ALPA, Lewall said, are wages and scheduling concerns as well as the union's desire to see all pilots that fly WestJet planes receive "equal pay for equal work."

Returning to Air Canada, the majority of the pilot group would benefit by eliminating the 12 year pay scale. Year 1, flat pay while on probation. Year two, the pilot gets a free bid to whatever their seniority can hold, and the pay will be the current 12 year rate. Again, “equal pay for equal work”.

I’m not suggesting this is what I want to happen. I just see these as completely foreseeable issues. There should be some honest and fulsome discussion about these issues in the months ahead.

Good luck to those involved.

[alkaseltzer]

That socialist outlook at Westjet is why so many careers become stagnant.

Maybe it’s a mere function of ALPA.

When AC goes ALPA, Master seniority across all ALPA unions as ONE may be a real possibility. Then Air Canada can subcontract out ALPA as a an independent agency for pilots. We become contract pilots working for ALPA, not Air Canada.

Canuck way of doing things.

[Tbayer2021]

That socialist outlook at Westjet is why so many careers become stagnant.

Maybe it’s a mere function of ALPA.

When AC goes ALPA, Master seniority across all ALPA unions as ONE may be a real possibility. Then Air Canada can subcontract out ALPA as a an independent agency for pilots. We become contract pilots working for ALPA, not Air Canada.

Canuck way of doing things.

Easy with the fear mongering. Can you please point to where this has happened before? Say, the US where ALPA has a strong hold?

[Admiral Benson]

Ya i don't understand this line of thinking. You don't keep your DOH on this imaginary "ALPA master list" when you move from say Jazz to West Jet. Or Bearskin to Canadian North. Or Calm Air to Cargojet. Or Flightcraft to Flair.....you get the point....AC becoming ALPA will change nothing in this regard and people who think it will are out of touch

[Eric Janson]

Thanks to everyone for your insights, I'll take it all into consideration. I did leave it out, but I would live in one of AC's base (Eastern one).

Indeed, job security is a big item and can't be overlooked. Things are changing rapidly at Jazz, who knows what it could look like in 10 years while AC will always be there. Pension is also important.

Highly appreciated folks.

Disclaimer:- Don't work for Air Canada or Jazz.

Job security in this business is a myth imho - I don't care who you work for. There is no Airline "too big to fail". The last 3 years have clearly demonstrated that.

An alternative strategy would be to obtain the qualifications that are marketable globally. Example:- A32X/B737 TRI/TRE - always be a job for you.

I've been through multiple bankruptcies and changes of employer - I've always had a job to go to when I needed one.

It's always good to get different perspectives - but as stated previously you should make the choice that is right for you.

[Vanguard]

That socialist outlook at Westjet is why so many careers become stagnant.

Maybe it’s a mere function of ALPA.

When AC goes ALPA, Master seniority across all ALPA unions as ONE may be a real possibility. Then Air Canada can subcontract out ALPA as a an independent agency for pilots. We become contract pilots working for ALPA, not Air Canada.

Canuck way of doing things.

There will never be a ALPA master list seniority. This is delusional. Take some time to read the ALPA manual.

Jazz pilots can leave that pipe dream of getting their DOH at Air Canada. It will never happen.

The only one way it happens is if AC buys out Jazz and merges it. Even then a Merger Committee would have to be set up, there would be a process and all the Jazz pilots already at Canada would only keep their DOH at AC.

Stop fear mongering. This seems like a one more bullshit to save ACPA. Don’t fall for it.

[Crewbunk]

Ya i don't understand this line of thinking. You don't keep your DOH on this imaginary "ALPA master list" when you move from say Jazz to West Jet. Or Bearskin to Canadian North. Or Calm Air to Cargojet. Or Flightcraft to Flair.....you get the point....AC becoming ALPA will change nothing in this regard and people who think it will are out of touch

Exactly. Or …. Delta to United. I’d laugh at the notion of the newly ALPA Air Canada pilots knocking on Delta’s door and demanding a DOH merge.

One only has to look at past airline mergers in Canada to see that the union to what each belonged had absolutely no play in how the lists were integrated. Look at Transair/PWA, EPA/CP, Nordair/CP and PWA/CP. All belonged to the same union, NONE were DOH!

Here’s a kicker for you, Wardair/Canadian were different unions and it was a DOH merge.

[Maritimer]

Ya i don't understand this line of thinking. You don't keep your DOH on this imaginary "ALPA master list" when you move from say Jazz to West Jet. Or Bearskin to Canadian North. Or Calm Air to Cargojet. Or Flightcraft to Flair.....you get the point....AC becoming ALPA will change nothing in this regard and people who think it will are out of touch

Exactly. Or …. Delta to United. I’d laugh at the notion of the newly ALPA Air Canada pilots knocking on Delta’s door and demanding a DOH merge.

One only has to look at past airline mergers in Canada to see that the union to what each belonged had absolutely no play in how the lists were integrated. Look at Transair/PWA, EPA/CP, Nordair/CP and PWA/CP. All belonged to the same union, NONE were DOH!

Here’s a kicker for you, Wardair/Canadian were different unions and it was a DOH merge.

I don't work for AC or express but hasn't there been a precedent set somewhat recently with DOH mergers and fences put in place to protect positions?

[link821]

Ya i don't understand this line of thinking. You don't keep your DOH on this imaginary "ALPA master list" when you move from say Jazz to West Jet. Or Bearskin to Canadian North. Or Calm Air to Cargojet. Or Flightcraft to Flair.....you get the point....AC becoming ALPA will change nothing in this regard and people who think it will are out of touch

Exactly. Or …. Delta to United. I’d laugh at the notion of the newly ALPA Air Canada pilots knocking on Delta’s door and demanding a DOH merge.

One only has to look at past airline mergers in Canada to see that the union to what each belonged had absolutely no play in how the lists were integrated. Look at Transair/PWA, EPA/CP, Nordair/CP and PWA/CP. All belonged to the same union, NONE were DOH!

Here’s a kicker for you, Wardair/Canadian were different unions and it was a DOH merge.

I don't work for AC or express but hasn't there been a precedent set somewhat recently with DOH mergers and fences put in place to protect positions?

Yeah in recent years the best way to get a good seniority number at Jazz was to work at Ggn or Sky…lol

[Crewbunk]

I don't work for AC or express but hasn't there been a precedent set somewhat recently with DOH mergers and fences put in place to protect positions?

I have studied hundreds of North American merges. I have seen just about every permutation and combination.

You may have heard the term “no bump, no flush”. That is common with most merges. Simply stating that when the integration is complete you will retain your current position (if it still exists) and can not be moved from it, even by someone now senior, until you bid off the position.

Also common is left seat protection, equipment protection and base protection. These are things which can be negotiated.

Historically, arbitrators don’t like to break new ground. Commonly, the final method of list integration has occurred in the past.

[Crewbunk]

Yeah in recent years the best way to get a good seniority number at Jazz was to work at Ggn or Sky…lol

The interesting thing about the Jazz/Georgian/Skyregional merge is that it wasn’t arbitrated.

The three sides met with a mediator and decided amongst themselves how the list should be integrated. If all sides agree, then the process stops there. So clearly everyone was happy with the results.

Arbitration only begins (along with the whole merger process) when all sides don’t agree. Which is by far, the vast majority.

[lee123]

Never too old. Make the move, as you'll still be far happier here than anywhere else in Canada.

[RoAF-Mig21]

...22 years left in your career...

That's assuming you want or can work till 65. For me that's a deal breaker. I will not work a day over the age of 60, regardless of how much money I get. (Mind you, living in Canada, after what Comrade Trudeau did to our economy, one may never be able to retire).

Thank the stars I have a E.U. passport and I can easily spend my retirement in Greece, Spain, Southern Italy or Eastern Europe, where to cost of living is way cheapper than CANADA. Some of my fellow co-workers may not have that option.

Each case is unique. What works for one person doesn't work for others. For me, I don't see a great advantage going to AC, (it's a 50/50 at this point). ...again, balancing my personal scenarios. Then again, I'd leave Canada tomorrow if I can get a job elsewhere.