A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

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CanadaAir
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A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by CanadaAir »

Tim.png
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Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

None of these jobs require signing a training bond or mandatory remote bush work or working the ramp for 2 years with a promise of maybe getting a job. They don’t require over $100k in training costs – if you haven’t looked recently, 1 hour solo in a flying club Cessna 172R is over $200/hr + instructor rates of $80/hr. Multi training is almost $500/hr. University and college tuition is rising, along with inflation.

All CAR700 pilots shouldn’t be accepting less than $90k to start in their upcoming contract negotiations if they want to be on par with any other junior professionals like Meter Readers and Tim Hortons delivery drivers.

If you are currently making less than 90k a year, go to your employer and argue that since a Meter Reader is making 70k with no education, you should be paid at least 70k to be aligned with the Meter Reader and add another 20k annually so you can pay off your education over 5 or 6 years.
You should be able to pay off student loans quickly and not carrying them into mid life.

If you have an ATPL, you aren’t a junior employee and shouldn’t be comparing yourself to a Meter Reader. Those piloting licenses and years of training and working your way up to 1500 hours has some value – with an ATPL demand no less than $120k a year.

ACPA and ALPA are failing as unions if they set the first year pay less than $120k. Is this a profession or is it not?

Medevac Pilots – start having some respect for yourself and what you do. Remote uncontrolled Medevac is the most dangerous and complex flying in civil aviation. You should be making at least as much as the nurse or doctor on board, regardless if it’s a PC-12, King Air or light jet. The government is willing to pay 20k or more for transporting the person onboard, and then maybe 100k or more for their hospital stay – they are as precious a payload as any airliner carrying 100 passenger. Don’t treat yourself as deserving less than airline pilots. Stand up to employers who pay low so they don’t undercut the Medevac companies who are willing to pay high.

If you have a union, scrap the training bonds. No other industry does this. You already subsided the training for your employer by paying 100k+ for your flight training and post-secondary.

New nurses and medical workers are being paid signing bonus of $10k to 20k. Set a new expectation for signing bonuses, and stop signing training agreements binding you to the company. You should have the ability to leave without penalty.

In your new contracts don’t:
  • - Pay for aircraft type training or instrument renewals
    - Pay for pilot medicals – still many companies requiring this. The company should pay you 1 hour time for driving to and taking your medical
    - Pay for pilot shirts, dress pants, ties, black shoes or other company uniform requirements
    - Pay for safety vests or winter clothing or gloves if you have to fuel or de-ice the plane, shovel snow or brush snow off the aircraft.
    - Pay for charts and maps or iPads required for work - required by law, non-negotiable
    - Pay for out of country or out of province cell phone plans – your employer should pay for all long distance charges and required data usage on your cell phones
    - Pay for CPR and first aid courses
    - Pay for taxis, rental cars or ground transport any time you are away from base
    - Pay for gym or fitness facility access while away from base – the company has a responsibility to your Category 1 Medical health
    - Pay for time in the FTD – especially instructors and those working on the ramp “waiting”
    - Pay for flashlights, headsets or sunglasses – these are required for the job
    - Pay for pens, paper or other basic office supplies
    - Pay for meals, hotels or accommodations while on duty or on call
    - Pay for pilot life insurance – make sure your employer’s insurance policy covers you. Many pilots, and almost all flight instructors, are directly exempt from the insurance policies you carry on board. Make sure you are covered by the company.
All contracts should require the company to cover 100% of the legal fees for a pilot, in the ever more common event they are sued by passengers if there is an incident, travel delay or accident.

All time taking company required exams, initial and renewal training should be paid.

Time on call, on reserve, deadheading/relocation or waiting for clients should be paid at no less than half time for every hour – other industries charge call out fees and driving time for workers who have to spend time travelling.

If you are waiting around the airport for a broken plane or weather delay or scheduling issue, you should be paid half time for every hour waiting and not doing your job. Stop letting the companies position you without pay.

If you are required to show up to work, and then sent home, you should be paid for the expense of driving to work and for the time you spent waiting, usually no less than 4 hours pay.

All pilots should get a per diem which meet the level set by the federal government - non-negotiable
https://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/d10/v238/s659/en

Make sure your employer’s insurance policy covers you while on the job and any time you are travelling for work, commuting, or deadheading. Many pilots, and almost all flight instructors, are directly exempt from the insurance policies you carry on board. Make sure you are covered by the company at a minimum to the levels set by the federal government
https://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/d10/v238/s648/en

Like most other industries, if you are working outside the standard 6 am to 6 pm working hours at your home base, you should expect 10 – 20% extra pay for every hour worked as per the law in many jurisdictions.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversig ... mployees/

If you are required to travel across more than 2 time zones, you should get additional time zone pay – 10% per hour while away from base.

If you are operating old aircraft without autopilot or moving map GPS, your work is more difficult, you should expect an extra 10% pay for this.

Dangerous flying such as crop-dusting, fire suppression, banner towing, low level surveillance or pipeline flying and non-paved landing strips should all have an extra 10% danger pay.

Pilots should never be loading/unloading cargo beyond a few passenger suitcases or for rich Amazon or UPS companies - they can afford baggage staff. Loading/unloading should always be the job of trained and paid ground handlers who have the appropriate safety equipment. If a pilot is required to do it, the company is required to train the pilots on lifting techniques and issue the pilots lifting harnesses and paid steel toe foot wear – which should not carried on board the aircraft due to its possible electromagnetic effects.

Any time deicing or fueling or doing office work must be paid.

Be a professional pilot. Flight planning, crew and aircraft preparation should be your ground duties, not loading or cleaning (thanks westjet).
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by BGH »

Grain worker on the west coast starts at $40.00 an hour,only requires a pulse.
Trades are about $10.00 an hour more.
Every time I was offered a flying job it was much less than what unemployment insurance would of paid me to stay home,heard the excuse that you have to want the job - my reply was that I would like to be able to afford to eat.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by daedalusx »

The LINK mini shuttle driver makes in YYC makes more than Pasco, Encore and Jazz FOs ...
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by Ash Ketchum »

Supply and demand. Being a pilot has always been a glamorous dream job so there are more candidates than seats available. Until that changes companies will get away with paying poverty wages. That being said, I may just apply for that meter reader job...
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by 8895 »

As has been previously stated, it’s just supply and demand. Consider for a second that Canada has higher immigration targets then the U.S. which is a country like what, 10x bigger than we are? A simple google search and you can find a website advocating that you can come to Canada with your pilot’s license and get awarded your permanent residency! Perfect recipe for upwards pressure on housing and cost of living with downwards pressure on wages. When you give companies easy access to labour combined with our far inferior capacity for seats to be filled by pilots (again, compared to south of the border) then it’s no wonder why our wages are abysmal. Throw in our flag carrier having a union full of boomers more concerned about living paycheque to paycheque making north of 300k/year while dragging the bar for the industry beneath the ground for the rest of us and here we are.

It’d be great if you got paid based on how hard you work, but unfortunately you only get paid based on how hard you are to replace, and right now a Canadian pilot is still too easy to replace.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by McKinley »

8895 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:35 pm As has been previously stated, it’s just supply and demand. Consider for a second that Canada has higher immigration targets then the U.S. which is a country like what, 10x bigger than we are? A simple google search and you can find a website advocating that you can come to Canada with your pilot’s license and get awarded your permanent residency! Perfect recipe for upwards pressure on housing and cost of living with downwards pressure on wages. When you give companies easy access to labour combined with our far inferior capacity for seats to be filled by pilots (again, compared to south of the border) then it’s no wonder why our wages are abysmal. Throw in our flag carrier having a union full of boomers more concerned about living paycheque to paycheque making north of 300k/year while dragging the bar for the industry beneath the ground for the rest of us and here we are.

It’d be great if you got paid based on how hard you work, but unfortunately you only get paid based on how hard you are to replace, and right now a Canadian pilot is still too easy to replace.
I respectfully disagree. Tree falling…

Your cert costs 3-5,000. Entry level pay starts at $3-500 depending on how your level of motivation.

Once certified ( 25 days/ an exam) then you’re $700+ per day.

As an entry level employee I’ve been treated far better than I have never been in aviation.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by rookiepilot »

No different than what happened in Buffalo today.

Everyone wants to work for Elon. Their dream job.

A small group of them started a union drive.

All fired instantly.

Easily replaced by unending newbies eager to work cheap for their hero.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by ‘Bob’ »

McKinley wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 4:05 pm
8895 wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 1:35 pm As has been previously stated, it’s just supply and demand. Consider for a second that Canada has higher immigration targets then the U.S. which is a country like what, 10x bigger than we are? A simple google search and you can find a website advocating that you can come to Canada with your pilot’s license and get awarded your permanent residency! Perfect recipe for upwards pressure on housing and cost of living with downwards pressure on wages. When you give companies easy access to labour combined with our far inferior capacity for seats to be filled by pilots (again, compared to south of the border) then it’s no wonder why our wages are abysmal. Throw in our flag carrier having a union full of boomers more concerned about living paycheque to paycheque making north of 300k/year while dragging the bar for the industry beneath the ground for the rest of us and here we are.

It’d be great if you got paid based on how hard you work, but unfortunately you only get paid based on how hard you are to replace, and right now a Canadian pilot is still too easy to replace.
I respectfully disagree. Tree falling…

Your cert costs 3-5,000. Entry level pay starts at $3-500 depending on how your level of motivation.

Once certified ( 25 days/ an exam) then you’re $700+ per day.

As an entry level employee I’ve been treated far better than I have never been in aviation.
Still supply and demand.

How many people want to fall trees if not for a lot of cash?

Also look up what a guy running a feller-buncher gets paid. It’s no $700 a day on someone else’s equipment.

Here you go.

https://www.jobbank.gc.ca/jobsearch/job ... rchresults

If you did it 16 hours a day you’d almost crack $700.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by CanadaAir »

There are many ALPA groups currently in some form of collective agreement negotiation > WestJet, WestJet Encore, Wasaya, Perimeter & Bearskin, PAL Aerospace & Calm Air.

Other pilot unions like ACPA and Unifor are also currently bargaining.

Increasing pay from $30k to $50k would really show how weak ALPA is - the pilots still would be making $20k less than the $70k starting salary meter reader.

If pilots have a union already they should use it.

Why pay union dues if ALPA or ACPA can’t negotiate a salary that is better than a non-unionized zero skill no-education-required meter reader?
Not much of a union. ALPA should at least be able to get all pilots meter reader and Tim Hortons delivery driver wages.

The companies can afford to finance million dollar aircraft and all the fuel costs, they don’t want to, but could find ways to pay pilots wages similar to other professionals. They somehow find high wages for the flight nurses and paramedics, managers and executives.

Some of these ALPA companies have had the highest historic quarterly revenue within the past year.

There's money for share buy back and dividends. So where's the money for pilots?

ALPA should be pushing for $120k starting Dash and Metro pilots, not $40k or $50k, with ALPA coming out bragging about a $20k increase to a $30k salary.

ALPA shouldn’t forget the pilots of the small air carriers who also pay dues.

All these ALPA groups can work together to increase wages across the board. From 703 to 705.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by goldeneagle »

CanadaAir wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 5:44 pm Why pay union dues if ALPA or ACPA can’t negotiate a salary that is better than a non-unionized zero skill no-education-required meter reader?
It's really simple, have to pay to get somebody to do that job. Pilots on the other hand, they are all desparate to fly airplanes.

I remember well a day back in 1983, was doing the morning flight from the big city back to home base, had a non rev along, pilot coming for an interview. It was a beautiful sunny Monday morning, lovely day to be flying, and I had a couple regulars on board, cute young gals. While I was fueling my plane for the next flight that candidate was sitting with the company owner and said 'I would do that job for free'. a couple months later he was flying that airplane, for free, and I was out looking for a job.

Wind the clock forward a few years after that, I walked away from an offer at a regional, the wage offered was not enough to pay rent and buy groceries at the time. There were literally dozens in line behind me taking that job, they didn't care what the wage was, just wanted to fly the scrap 8.

The wages are what they are because there is an endless list of folks wanting the job, and willing to take it for the price being offered. If you are one of the ones flying for an airline today, the mere fact you took the job is proof that the pay is high enough. If the wage wasn't good enough, you would not have taken the job.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by DanWEC »

This is all great, but do you know what EVERY MEC member must do in Canada?

Compile a transcript from all US airlines prior to 2009 itemizing every textbook pushback on negotiations stating how increasing pilot salaries one iota would bankrupt each respective airline. This is the time when "expendable" regional pilots were taking $20k salaries.

Then superimpose the arguments after the 1500 hour rule, and in 2023, and ask how they can be offering 100k signing bonuses and literal 1000% increases when they're forced, and aren't closing up shop?

Any company sympathizers here need to give their head a hard shake. Really hard. Virtually every pilot in this country should be making double what they are now. Every. Single. One.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by Bug_Stomper_01 »

CanadaAir wrote: Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:45 am Tim.png


Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

None of these jobs require signing a training bond or mandatory remote bush work or working the ramp for 2 years with a promise of maybe getting a job. They don’t require over $100k in training costs – if you haven’t looked recently, 1 hour solo in a flying club Cessna 172R is over $200/hr + instructor rates of $80/hr. Multi training is almost $500/hr. University and college tuition is rising, along with inflation.

All CAR700 pilots shouldn’t be accepting less than $90k to start in their upcoming contract negotiations if they want to be on par with any other junior professionals like Meter Readers and Tim Hortons delivery drivers.

If you are currently making less than 90k a year, go to your employer and argue that since a Meter Reader is making 70k with no education, you should be paid at least 70k to be aligned with the Meter Reader and add another 20k annually so you can pay off your education over 5 or 6 years.
You should be able to pay off student loans quickly and not carrying them into mid life.

If you have an ATPL, you aren’t a junior employee and shouldn’t be comparing yourself to a Meter Reader. Those piloting licenses and years of training and working your way up to 1500 hours has some value – with an ATPL demand no less than $120k a year.

ACPA and ALPA are failing as unions if they set the first year pay less than $120k. Is this a profession or is it not?

Medevac Pilots – start having some respect for yourself and what you do. Remote uncontrolled Medevac is the most dangerous and complex flying in civil aviation. You should be making at least as much as the nurse or doctor on board, regardless if it’s a PC-12, King Air or light jet. The government is willing to pay 20k or more for transporting the person onboard, and then maybe 100k or more for their hospital stay – they are as precious a payload as any airliner carrying 100 passenger. Don’t treat yourself as deserving less than airline pilots. Stand up to employers who pay low so they don’t undercut the Medevac companies who are willing to pay high.

If you have a union, scrap the training bonds. No other industry does this. You already subsided the training for your employer by paying 100k+ for your flight training and post-secondary.

New nurses and medical workers are being paid signing bonus of $10k to 20k. Set a new expectation for signing bonuses, and stop signing training agreements binding you to the company. You should have the ability to leave without penalty.

In your new contracts don’t:
  • - Pay for aircraft type training or instrument renewals
    - Pay for pilot medicals – still many companies requiring this. The company should pay you 1 hour time for driving to and taking your medical
    - Pay for pilot shirts, dress pants, ties, black shoes or other company uniform requirements
    - Pay for safety vests or winter clothing or gloves if you have to fuel or de-ice the plane, shovel snow or brush snow off the aircraft.
    - Pay for charts and maps or iPads required for work - required by law, non-negotiable
    - Pay for out of country or out of province cell phone plans – your employer should pay for all long distance charges and required data usage on your cell phones
    - Pay for CPR and first aid courses
    - Pay for taxis, rental cars or ground transport any time you are away from base
    - Pay for gym or fitness facility access while away from base – the company has a responsibility to your Category 1 Medical health
    - Pay for time in the FTD – especially instructors and those working on the ramp “waiting”
    - Pay for flashlights, headsets or sunglasses – these are required for the job
    - Pay for pens, paper or other basic office supplies
    - Pay for meals, hotels or accommodations while on duty or on call
    - Pay for pilot life insurance – make sure your employer’s insurance policy covers you. Many pilots, and almost all flight instructors, are directly exempt from the insurance policies you carry on board. Make sure you are covered by the company.
All contracts should require the company to cover 100% of the legal fees for a pilot, in the ever more common event they are sued by passengers if there is an incident, travel delay or accident.

All time taking company required exams, initial and renewal training should be paid.

Time on call, on reserve, deadheading/relocation or waiting for clients should be paid at no less than half time for every hour – other industries charge call out fees and driving time for workers who have to spend time travelling.

If you are waiting around the airport for a broken plane or weather delay or scheduling issue, you should be paid half time for every hour waiting and not doing your job. Stop letting the companies position you without pay.

If you are required to show up to work, and then sent home, you should be paid for the expense of driving to work and for the time you spent waiting, usually no less than 4 hours pay.

All pilots should get a per diem which meet the level set by the federal government - non-negotiable
https://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/d10/v238/s659/en

Make sure your employer’s insurance policy covers you while on the job and any time you are travelling for work, commuting, or deadheading. Many pilots, and almost all flight instructors, are directly exempt from the insurance policies you carry on board. Make sure you are covered by the company at a minimum to the levels set by the federal government
https://www.njc-cnm.gc.ca/directive/d10/v238/s648/en

Like most other industries, if you are working outside the standard 6 am to 6 pm working hours at your home base, you should expect 10 – 20% extra pay for every hour worked as per the law in many jurisdictions.
https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversig ... mployees/

If you are required to travel across more than 2 time zones, you should get additional time zone pay – 10% per hour while away from base.

If you are operating old aircraft without autopilot or moving map GPS, your work is more difficult, you should expect an extra 10% pay for this.

Dangerous flying such as crop-dusting, fire suppression, banner towing, low level surveillance or pipeline flying and non-paved landing strips should all have an extra 10% danger pay.

Pilots should never be loading/unloading cargo beyond a few passenger suitcases or for rich Amazon or UPS companies - they can afford baggage staff. Loading/unloading should always be the job of trained and paid ground handlers who have the appropriate safety equipment. If a pilot is required to do it, the company is required to train the pilots on lifting techniques and issue the pilots lifting harnesses and paid steel toe foot wear – which should not carried on board the aircraft due to its possible electromagnetic effects.

Any time deicing or fueling or doing office work must be paid.

Be a professional pilot. Flight planning, crew and aircraft preparation should be your ground duties, not loading or cleaning (thanks westjet).
This topic is always brought up and industry is well aware of what they’re doing. In short, they don’t care, there is always a hopper full of green licenses cheaper to freshly endorse than bring wages up. Nothing will ever change, anyone who thinks airlines actually care about massive profits and not just hanging out in the black need a reality check.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by photofly »

A meter reader makes $50k. Entry level at $38k. (If I were posting clickbait to get gullible fools to sign up for my recruitment site, I’d add $20k, too, because greedy people are much easier to fleece than people who have a genuine understanding of what they’re worth.)
752A181C-4515-4CA2-96D9-A14087EC249F.png
752A181C-4515-4CA2-96D9-A14087EC249F.png (567.75 KiB) Viewed 6288 times
Not many people want to be meter readers.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by CanadaAir »

I used your same salary APP to calculate a pilot salary in Canada, it came out at $92,000 - bottom of this post. Salary apps, glassdoor and others are usually wrong on the salaries.

The posting above for Meter Reader was at $70k to $82k a year as advertised by the company - so the job exists, as do all the other jobs above which pay 80k to $100k to start for a new employee.

Of course there will be variations, higher or lower salaries depending on where you work and the local employment markets and industry.

If you do a review of salaries across many industries - trades, emergency services, public health, forestry, mining, white collar professions, trucking, rail, manufacturing - most entry level positions are paying much more than those of both entry level and experienced pilots.

Even if a gas meter reader (or whatever other job) does make only $50k, they are being paid in the same ballpark as starting pilots at Westjet, Westjet Encore, Jazz, Air Canada, and the other major airlines, and the meter reader is still getting paid more than most of the pilots who are working in smaller airlines or charter companies - where many pilots are still making less $22k to $40k a year.

There are several companies trying to hire pilots with 1000 hours, all the ratings and a degree but only paying them $29k - like wasaya, bearskin, perimeter, and others. And these companies claim to have a major union backing them - ALPA

It should be an embarrassment to all the ALPA executives and presidents that claim to be a member of a "union" - meaning working together, yet allowing various pilot groups to negotiate contracts at less than $40K or $30k. ALPA should at least be able to make gains with employers to present a salary that matches entry level work in other industries.

It would be expected that ALPA, being one of the largest unions in the world, could negotiate starting pilot salaries better than a $50k or $70k meter reader, and enough for pilots to pay back their $100k+ in training.

Increasing salaries by $20k on a $30k job is not a gain for a union, it's still an embarrassment to the profession.

The companies do have the ability to pay pilots more. Don't expect any of them to go out of business based only on pilot salaries. If they can't afford to operate there are other factors which cause bankruptcy more significant than employee salaries. Even if the company were to be financially poor, there are many other companies which would take over their flying and hire on the pilots who were previously working those routes.

Remember. WestJet has enough cash to acquire Sunwing. Air Canada has enough cash to acquire Air Transat, and even buy out Jazz if they want.
Porter just made very expensive fleet expansion orders. Exchange Income Corporation doesn't stop buying up new companies and has had massive financials. First Air and Canadian North had enough finances to merge. Flair has huge investment to expand.
Many of the 703 companies have done well - some King Air Medevacs are paying both pilots over $100k.

There's available funds for pilot salaries over $90k for all pilots, even new ones.
The companies aren't "out of money" and "going bankrupt" - don't fall for this.

The unions have a responsibility to negotiate the higher salaries for all their members - not only the major airlines.

With a union, there's almost nothing an employer can do to stop pilots from moving from $30k to $90k this year.
Minimum wage is $30k in most the country, the government and Transport Canada are aware of how low the pilot pay is.
Many other industries have already had wages increase by 20% in the past year.
Companies won't be able to block major increases.

Its up to the pilots. Either they don't care about having higher wages, or they take the time to push for it - even if they are preparing to leave to new companies.

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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by CanadaAir »

If you don't think a 704/5 regional pilot can triple their salaries in one year, take a look at MESA's pay scale (USD).
They went from $36/hour to $100/hr in one year.

BTW $100/hr USD is $134/hr CAD.

Year 1 – Dash8 FO (Horizon) in the US is $90k USD or $121k CAD.

No Canadian pilot, especially ALPA, should be flying a Dash8, ATR, SAAB, RJ or light jet for less than $120k CAD a year.
Same for 737 or bigger operators.

It's ok to triple your salary in one year - you aren't crazy.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by rookiepilot »

Who are you guys trying to reach by posting the same thread here countless times?

Just curious.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by CanadaAir »

Only posted one thread, although other threads are also commenting on this.
Trying to reach pilots who are willing to work together to finally change industry pay, and urge any unions to do so since there are so many negotiating this year.

It's up to pilots to make the change, not the management or owners.

There are several ways to raise pay, even a small fare increase works:

A 737/319 with passengers in only 100 seats. Charge an extra $5 a ticket. That’s $500 or $250 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 2.5 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A Dash8 or ATR with passengers in only 20 seats. Charge an extra $10 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

A B1900 or Metro or Saab with passengers in only 10 seats. Charge an extra $20 a ticket. That’s $200 or $100 for each pilot for the flight.
If the flight is 1.0 hours – that’s $100 an hour extra for each of the pilots.

If you’re carrying cargo on a B1900 or Caravan or other type – Amazon, UPS, FedEx are making mass profits. You should easily be able to get more.

If you’re flying King Air, Otter or other 703 types, most your clients are corporate, government or paid for by the government. The corporations and government understand inflation is going on. Up the flight rates by $200 an hour for $100 extra each hour per pilot.

A small increase in fares covers huge increases in pilot salaries, there isn’t even a requirement to take from existing revenues.


Maybe pilot unions aren’t that smart if they can’t figure out how to get a raise.
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photofly
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by photofly »

CanadaAir wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:08 am If you do a review of salaries across many industries - trades, emergency services, public health, forestry, mining, white collar professions, trucking, rail, manufacturing - most entry level positions are paying much more than those of both entry level and experienced pilots.
A million times more people want to be pilots than any of those things, and unlike most white collar professions, anyone can fly an airplane. Of course pay is low.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by twa22 »

photofly wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:42 pm
CanadaAir wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:08 am If you do a review of salaries across many industries - trades, emergency services, public health, forestry, mining, white collar professions, trucking, rail, manufacturing - most entry level positions are paying much more than those of both entry level and experienced pilots.
A million times more people want to be pilots than any of those things, and unlike most white collar professions, anyone can fly an airplane. Of course pay is low.
Yea I doubt anyone can fly an airplane... and i've seen plenty of people who are in the trades who shouldn't be anywhere near a wrench or a wire stripper, I know this because I had to fix the mess these "qualified" people left, while i'm "not qualified" because I don't have some piece of paper saying I can turn a wrench or strip a wire

You're pathetic, stop excusing shit pay just because a lot of people want to be pilots but people don't want to work in trades.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by photofly »

twa22 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:58 pm You're pathetic, stop excusing shit pay just because a lot of people want to be pilots but people don't want to work in trades.
If it was a difficult skill then more people would get turned away during training, and starting salaries would be higher. There's nothing personal about it. Pilot training is based on having enough cash, and pilot advancement is based on perseverance, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and sticking it out longer than everyone else. Ability has little to do with it at any stage, so I can't see how anyone can claim that it's a skill beyond most people; pretty much anyone who can stick it out long enough can be a pilot.
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DId you hear the one about the jurisprudence fetishist? He got off on a technicality.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by Tbayer2021 »

photofly wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:12 pm
twa22 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:58 pm You're pathetic, stop excusing shit pay just because a lot of people want to be pilots but people don't want to work in trades.
If it was a difficult skill then more people would get turned away during training, and starting salaries would be higher. There's nothing personal about it. Pilot training is based on having enough cash, and pilot advancement is based on perseverance, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and sticking it out longer than everyone else. Ability has little to do with it at any stage, so I can't see how anyone can claim that it's a skill beyond most people; pretty much anyone who can stick it out long enough can be a pilot.
I agree with that wholeheartedly. The single largest barrier to becoming a professional pilot is money, nothing else. But obviously, a group that is generally type A, won't like to hear they're not as smart or special as they like to think they are. That being said, none of that matters when it comes to demanding and being able to earn exceedingly high wages. We only need to look south of the border for proof of that.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by twa22 »

photofly wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:12 pm
twa22 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:58 pm You're pathetic, stop excusing shit pay just because a lot of people want to be pilots but people don't want to work in trades.
If it was a difficult skill then more people would get turned away during training, and starting salaries would be higher. There's nothing personal about it. Pilot training is based on having enough cash, and pilot advancement is based on perseverance, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and sticking it out longer than everyone else. Ability has little to do with it at any stage, so I can't see how anyone can claim that it's a skill beyond most people; pretty much anyone who can stick it out long enough can be a pilot.
This has to be the most looney tunes thing I have read in a long time... Your statement can literally apply to any field of work :rolleyes:
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by DanWEC »

Photofly, with respect, the mentality we need isn't a redundant, circular, self-deprecating analysis of every reason why we could possibly be here, but rather a focus on getting the @#$! out of it.
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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by CanadaAir »

Here's the rates for RJ captain in the US. Lowest rate is $US 153/hour or $206 Canadian per hour.
Porter pilots are still behind on Captain pay.

MESA also pays pilots 60% of flight pay for all time spent deadheading/repositioning.

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In the US, they are also issuing $US 40k or $54 Canadian signing bonuses for captains.

While many companies in Canada still require first officers, captains and first officers upgrading to captains to sign $20k training bonds.

Training bonds should not be accepted in any upcoming union negotiations - especially at the multiple ALPA companies which still use them.

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Re: A read for all negotiating pilots - Even the Meter Reader job, which requires no education makes $70k a year!

Post by ‘Bob’ »

twa22 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 3:18 pm
photofly wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 1:12 pm
twa22 wrote: Fri Feb 17, 2023 12:58 pm You're pathetic, stop excusing shit pay just because a lot of people want to be pilots but people don't want to work in trades.
If it was a difficult skill then more people would get turned away during training, and starting salaries would be higher. There's nothing personal about it. Pilot training is based on having enough cash, and pilot advancement is based on perseverance, being in the right place at the right time, knowing the right people, and sticking it out longer than everyone else. Ability has little to do with it at any stage, so I can't see how anyone can claim that it's a skill beyond most people; pretty much anyone who can stick it out long enough can be a pilot.
This has to be the most looney tunes thing I have read in a long time...
And then you say.
Your statement can literally apply to any field of work :rolleyes:
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