khedrei wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 11:25 pm
I was going by the posted minimums. I didnt know they had a separate intake. Thanks for the info.
Whats astounding to me is how shortsighted these companies are. They need captains so pay them more... sure. But they overlook the fact that if they can't attract FOs then they won't have anyone to promote. Surely the pool of qualified DECs will run dry at some point and they will have wasted so much time when they could have been employing FOs who could have the qualifications to be upgraded reasonably quickly but arent interested in commuting or driving into the city for less money than they could make at Home Depot.
FO + a year or two of experience = possible captain.
Unlivable wage = no FOs.
No FOs = 0% possible captain.
Simple math.
Except they arnt having troubles filling FO classes. And why would they invest more (pay and training) to people who dont even want to upgrade/stick around. So they boost the starting captain pay and try and poach from the other airlines.
Perhaps I didn't explain my point very well. I meant that people who are "close" to having the qualifications to be upgraded to captain might be more interested in applying to one of these FO jobs if they paid more. These could include people who are working for a smaller operation as a captain flying a 1900 or Metro or even a high time FO working at one of these jobs. They might be upgradable soon after hire, but won't come to these 705's due to bad FO pay and would rather stay where they are. Or, people who might have old qualifications and are working in different fields ( I don't know how many people are in that catagory). Mainly, I mean "potential" captains who don't quite meet the DEC requirments but will soon after hire, won't be interested due to the low FO wages. The short of it, if they want good captains, pay their FO's better now so they can get them as captains in the future.
You say they don't have trouble filling FO classes, perhaps that's true. I have no idea. But it does seem that there are more jobs posted on these pilot jobs websites than ever before. You also say these FO's won't stick around... I say that's the same thing as "can't fill them". I would argue its worse if they are hiring people who leave after a year or two especially for these operators that paid all this money to type them. There is a reason they don't stick around. My last job at the railway paid 65-85k starting wage depending on how hard you wanted to work, required ZERO education or experience and this was 20 years ago. I made 100k my first year. Add 30% to those numbers today. They couldn't keep people because the working conditions sucked. I just find it crazy that these companies that struggle to find talent can't figure it out and solve it.
Good on Porter! And, I'll say kudos to those who've bargined increases this year. Is it enough? No, but we are trending in the right direction, and there's 2 major players that now need to set the bar.
khedrei wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 2:06 pm
How about the airlines listed in the main page of this forum. Large 705 operators. Seems to make sense.
Sunning doesn't hire 250 hr pilots.
Jazz lists their hiring minimums at 500 hours. I think it was 800 a couple weeks ago.
Perhaps I'm missing something but I still don't see it.
That is very incorrect, from your series of posts I guess you just entered Canadian aviation industry!
Jazz hires 250 hours cadets
Sunwing hires lots 250 hours cadets
You might not consider Wasaya or Perimeter or summit a major airline but they are very big operations that requires skillful pilots and yes they hire 250 hours for right seat!
If you can’t find the information then maybe you are not looking at the right place
Dronepiper wrote: ↑Thu Feb 16, 2023 8:27 pm
This is the start of a revolution!!! Remember that this is only a 132 seat airplane. Just think about what the conversion would be for a 737 or an A320.
Wouldn’t go that far bud lol
Remember Porter “benchmarks” their salaries by selecting companies and essentially averaging out the salaries to establish their own. Someone feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe the companies involved with the E2 benchmarking process are transat, flair, and sunwing. So I’m assuming the salaries reflect having a leg up on sunwing and flair thanks to transat pulling the numbers up from those 2.
If Porter really cared about competing with AC and WJ for the pilot supply in the same way as competing for their share of the industry marketshare then they should probably include AT LEAST WJ in the list of benchmarked companies, but that’s a whole other point to get into lol.
Also remember that the E2 ops literally just started rev flights this month so every captain on property is on year one pay, so I’d only really look at the first half of the scale, it doesn’t cost the company anything to offer year 10 captain pay to zero pilots right now.
On the other hand…. It WOULD cost the company money to pay their Q drivers more, last I checked the last 2 upgrade classes were cancelled due to no candidates, and I doubt increasing year one pay by 6k is going to change that trend lol. Q FO’s hardly got a bump, but hey at least it’s not a pay decrease like they got coming out of the pandemic I guess?
If I was on the WJ MEC I’d be leveraging this as much as possible. It’s that negotiation along with ACPA’s (hopefully soon to be ALPA as well) that have the best chance at gaining us some ground in this industry for once.
You seem to have missed the fact that Porter's scale is now higher than WJ's 737 scale. Including them in the average would actually reduce Porter's new pay scales.
Yes but I think you’re missing the fact that the WJ pay scale is going to be going up shortly (unless management there decides to go nuclear) so in the long run it would be beneficial to have them benchmarked. Don’t be so short sighted looking at these things.
Also just throwing it out there that a first year SAAB FO at pasco is being paid more than a first year porter Q FO who’s flying a larger aircraft and doesn’t have the option to live in a cheaper city like Calgary (perhaps YQT could be an option but my understanding is that the base is small). Their Q operation is gonna be running into some big problems real soon.
tango308 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:10 pm
If I was a DH4 CA at porter I would be seriously pissed right now that my E2 colleagues are almost making twice as much.
How do the scales compare to similar equipment elsewhere? What type of experience is Porter getting to fly the Dash versus the E2?
Looks again like the focus is getting butts into E2 left seats, leaving a massive vaccuum on the Dash side.
Bold move Cotton, let's see how it works out.
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Last edited by schnitzel2k3 on Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
khedrei wrote: ↑Fri Feb 17, 2023 10:57 am
Saying they require a minimum of 250 hours is different than putting a 250 hour pilot in the right seat of a 1900. Im not saying it hasn't ever happened. I assume you know someone personally that got hired with 250 hours? Otherwise its hear say.
Also, putting ONE 250 hour pilot in the right seat doesn't mean they make a habit of it. Using the term "continue" seems to imply its happening often and everywhere.
Northern 703/4 have been putting 250 CPL pilots in the right seat for a very long time now, I personally know a bunch.
I see that Porter Airlines minimum TT is 1000hrs , but I heard that in the past they used to hire FO much lower than that. I have 750TT, is there any chance I can get an interview or is there any regionals still hiring 750TT FO with Multi IFR + IATRA.
Shre97 wrote: ↑Wed Feb 22, 2023 4:12 pm
Hello everyone.
I see that Porter Airlines minimum TT is 1000hrs , but I heard that in the past they used to hire FO much lower than that. I have 750TT, is there any chance I can get an interview or is there any regionals still hiring 750TT FO with Multi IFR + IATRA.
Thank you
This isn't really the thread/place for this question.
Apply and find out. Porter is currently well staffed on the low experience side of things so preference is being given to people with higher time. Either way apply and see what happens. Joining the Destination Porter program (if you qualify) can help your case.
What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?
Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.
8895 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:42 am
What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?
Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.
My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.
J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.
It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.
As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.
8895 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:42 am
What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?
Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.
My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.
J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.
It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.
As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.
I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.
I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.
I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.
I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.
I guess the most direct course of action is using your feet to send a message - it works in both union and non-union environments. While it does have the effect of raising salaries for those that fill your seat, it puts the individual in a position where they may not see the benefits of their move for a few years, particularly if they are going to AC (I'm only discussing the starting pay, nothing more). The word for it is martyr - and I, myself have been that martyr where I've used my feet to show my disagreement, only to see someone else benefit. I'm ok with that though - it's always work out for both them and me.
I hope everyone that feels this didn't work out the way they anticipated speaks to the FOAG to make it clear that they (management) fell short in this instance, and may need to revise their benchmark. Whether they are able to make any adjustments is anybodies guess.
I don't see it ever going flush with the the E2, like Jazz. I think the idea is that eventually external hiring on the E2 will end, and a strong internal flow will develop. It will mean the experience level on the island will take a hit. IMHO, the Q may become a training ground for new hires and if this strong industry growth can continue to fly against the winds of recession - I imagine within 2 to 3 years we'll see experience bottom out at 250/1500 hr pilots bombing into and out of the island - that is until we get to full capacity on the E2.
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Last edited by cjp on Sat Feb 25, 2023 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
8895 wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:42 am
What are everyone’s thoughts after the pilot calls regarding the new pay scales?
Personally I’m very disappointed seeing the company drop itself to the 65th percentile. I can’t see anyone on the Q side of the operation being very happy right now.
My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.
J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.
It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.
As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.
I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.
I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.
The 65th percentile is definitely better than 50th. It means that rather then being exactly in the middle we are higher than 65 percent of the group.
If Dash CAs continue to leave for AC rather then push for 1000mpic and get on the E2 then there's no amount of money that would make them stay. One would be giving up a once in a career opportunity at great seniority, and taking a 30k paycut vs a 70k pay bump (100k difference). Staffing on the Q will certainly be interesting this summer. I'm sure the Open Time will allow one to fill one's boots while working towards the 1000mpic.
The salary benchmark was a calculated and strategic play. They're not going to pay anymore than they think they have to to attract and retain. If they did they wouldn't be as competitive. If it doesn't work they'll make another play. I think the way it went down shows that management will do what it takes to keep Porter an attractive option (they can't afford not to).
FO's giving up their position for a couple extra thousand is extremely short sighted in my opinion. I get that living in Toronto on these sorts of wages is hard (been there done that). But rather than putting energy and effort into breaking this fleet lock or going somewhere else for a ~15k raise (and giving up the seniority one's built), focus on getting the time on type/TT needed to upgrade and get that 37k raise.
My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.
J.G / P.M emphasized that every single pilot on a Dash today will flow to the E2 if they so wish keeping the single seniority list.
It was acknowledged by management there is more work to do regarding WAWCON, but it's a great first step the same month of launch that they are addressing concerns. I'm feeling positive once our competitors address their payscales, within 12 months we will benefit from those gains as well - for sure on the E2, potentially on the Q.
As a side note, there was a highlight as to the relative revenue generation each fleet provides, hence the disparity in pay between the two types. It's frustrating that the operation that built Porter up to this point is not garnering the attention it deserves - but that's business. Focusing resources on a monster expenditure is vital for it's success.
I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.
I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.
The 65th percentile is definitely better than 50th. It means that rather then being exactly in the middle we are higher than 65 percent of the group.
If Dash CAs continue to leave for AC rather then push for 1000mpic and get on the E2 then there's no amount of money that would make them stay. One would be giving up a once in a career opportunity at great seniority, and taking a 30k paycut vs a 70k pay bump (100k difference). Staffing on the Q will certainly be interesting this summer. I'm sure the Open Time will allow one to fill one's boots while working towards the 1000mpic.
The salary benchmark was a calculated and strategic play. They're not going to pay anymore than they think they have to to attract and retain. If they did they wouldn't be as competitive. If it doesn't work they'll make another play. I think the way it went down shows that management will do what it takes to keep Porter an attractive option (they can't afford not to).
FO's giving up their position for a couple extra thousand is extremely short sighted in my opinion. I get that living in Toronto on these sorts of wages is hard (been there done that). But rather than putting energy and effort into breaking this fleet lock or going somewhere else for a ~15k raise (and giving up the seniority one's built), focus on getting the time on type/TT needed to upgrade and get that 37k raise.
100 percent in agreement. The benchmarking went up. Like you said, the Q wages didn’t really move due to the benchmarking being fairly close across the board. What has been moving right now are captain wages on jet aircraft.
And yes, you can throw money at people all day long. But if they see “red like a bull” (a right seat AC job with a pay cut) then it’s basically a done deal. Some people will sell their souls to work at “the NHL of airlines” lol.
Personally, I feel bad for E1 drivers at jazz close to AC hire or in the process… imagine you’re at captain e1 at jazz holding out for AC spot making almost half of what porter is paying and you get PFOd from AC..
I must have misunderstood the percentile comment, as how I understood it was they went from a straight up average at the 50th percentile down to being in the 65th, as I thought that’s how percentiles work.
I get that dash pilots bring in less money, but if they’re looking to retain people on that side of the operation I don’t think demeaning them with these new scales is the way to go. AC is already pulling a ton of Q captains with even more still in the pipeline either prepping to interview or waiting to hear back. With that level of attrition and the fact that the last two upgrade classes failed to materialize I don’t see how they plan on staffing that left seat. Doubt they’ll get many DEC’s for the Q and with the speed of the industry right now I can see many of those fleet locked FO’s moving on before their 2 years are up. With the bulk of their pilots working out of the most expensive city in the country and the company’s inability to even cover parking costs at their place of work it won’t take much for them to leave for higher pay and more job security.
The 65th percentile is definitely better than 50th. It means that rather then being exactly in the middle we are higher than 65 percent of the group.
If Dash CAs continue to leave for AC rather then push for 1000mpic and get on the E2 then there's no amount of money that would make them stay. One would be giving up a once in a career opportunity at great seniority, and taking a 30k paycut vs a 70k pay bump (100k difference). Staffing on the Q will certainly be interesting this summer. I'm sure the Open Time will allow one to fill one's boots while working towards the 1000mpic.
The salary benchmark was a calculated and strategic play. They're not going to pay anymore than they think they have to to attract and retain. If they did they wouldn't be as competitive. If it doesn't work they'll make another play. I think the way it went down shows that management will do what it takes to keep Porter an attractive option (they can't afford not to).
FO's giving up their position for a couple extra thousand is extremely short sighted in my opinion. I get that living in Toronto on these sorts of wages is hard (been there done that). But rather than putting energy and effort into breaking this fleet lock or going somewhere else for a ~15k raise (and giving up the seniority one's built), focus on getting the time on type/TT needed to upgrade and get that 37k raise.
Personally, I feel bad for E1 drivers at jazz close to AC hire or in the process… imagine you’re at captain e1 at jazz holding out for AC spot making almost half of what porter is paying and you get PFOd from AC..
The only logical move at that crossroads is come to Porter. Why leave that money on the table right?
cjp wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:13 pm
My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.
If you're referring to Encore being the only Q operator making a major stride, you should know that they have yet to pay out.
Timetoflyagain wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:38 am
..and there’s a lot of Jazz E1 and Q drivers living in YUL that just might with today’s new Montreal base announcement.
Montreal crew base..unsure. St. Hubert terminal “fall of 2024” but official base itself could be earlier. If you’re interested, and can stomach commuting for 12-18 months, grab a seniority number now and be golden when it opens.
cjp wrote: ↑Sat Feb 25, 2023 12:13 pm
My understanding was the company benchmarked to 65th up from the 50th percentile which they used years past. The problem is, most Q operators haven't made any major strides in salary.
If you're referring to Encore being the only Q operator making a major stride, you should know that they have yet to pay out.
Yikes, that's brutal. Westjet is falling apart at the seams.
Timetoflyagain wrote: ↑Mon Feb 27, 2023 11:38 am
..and there’s a lot of Jazz E1 and Q drivers living in YUL that just might with today’s new Montreal base announcement.
Opening when?
I don't know how many Jazz guys would jump ship to Porter. Here are some things that come to mind:
1. Getting a "direct hire" job on the E2, be it as captain or F/O may be a temporary thing. Eventually the (senior Porter) Q400 captains and first officers that have been with the company for a while will want to move up and will jump que in term of seniority. It may very well be that you get the spot only to find yourself flying a Q400 next year.
2. F/Os are less likely to go there, because the pay is not much better, especially if you have to start back at year 1. Also, most F/Os have AC in their sights as their next job.
3. Porter right now is "promissing the world", but how stable are they? What's the guarantee? They're not yet a stable airline and this venture may prove to be too much if AC and Westjet start a pricing war with them.
Then again... I don't have a crystal ball and what I said above is but a guess.
