New pay scales

[braaap Braap]

..and there’s a lot of Jazz E1 and Q drivers living in YUL that just might with today’s new Montreal base announcement.

Opening when?

I don't know how many Jazz guys would jump ship to Porter. Here are some things that come to mind:

1. Getting a "direct hire" job on the E2, be it as captain or F/O may be a temporary thing. Eventually the (senior Porter) Q400 captains and first officers that have been with the company for a while will want to move up and will jump que in term of seniority. It may very well be that you get the spot only to find yourself flying a Q400 next year.

People won't be bumped from their seat. Any pilots transitioning over will go ahead of them on the seniority list but they are only taking new spots that become available with the expansion. with the 50 jets they'll need another 450-500 pilots. So new hires are currently ahead of the crest of the wave.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Opening when?

I don't know how many Jazz guys would jump ship to Porter. Here are some things that come to mind:

1. Getting a "direct hire" job on the E2, be it as captain or F/O may be a temporary thing. Eventually the (senior Porter) Q400 captains and first officers that have been with the company for a while will want to move up and will jump que in term of seniority. It may very well be that you get the spot only to find yourself flying a Q400 next year.

People won't be bumped from their seat. Any pilots transitioning over will go ahead of them on the seniority list but they are only taking new spots that become available with the expansion. with the 50 jets they'll need another 450-500 pilots. So new hires are currently ahead of the crest of the wave.

I suppose you're right, given the planned growth. We'll see how much of those planes will actually be delivered. This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell. You do make a good point though.

[thepoors]

I think the idea is that eventually external hiring on the E2 will end, and a strong internal flow will develop.

Buddy, do you have any idea how many pilots you're going to need for the E2??

No way external hiring will ever end. And the way things are going, there won't be much internal to pull from because no one other than 200hr wonders would take that Q job...

[Crewbunk]

This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell.

By Porter’s own admission, since their first flight, they have never generated an operating profit. Never.

They have survived on investor capital and real estate transactions. There’s only so much left to use up before things fall apart …. and flying jets will make that happen quicker.

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

[flyinhigh]

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Like Flair, Lynx, or Jetlines

[cjp]

I think the idea is that eventually external hiring on the E2 will end, and a strong internal flow will develop.

Buddy, do you have any idea how many pilots you're going to need for the E2??

No way external hiring will ever end. And the way things are going, there won't be much internal to pull from because no one other than 200hr wonders would take that Q job...

Somewhere in the range of 600-1000 depending on how many tails they accept. It looks like the Dash 8 is certainly going the way of the Navajo, just took 10 years.

[RoAF-Mig21]

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Like Flair, Lynx, or Jetlines

The average "new business" in Canada and the US fails within 2 years. We'll see. Flair is a bit different beause they've been around a while but have drastically changed their business model. We'll have this discussion in 2025.

[cjp]

This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell.

By Porter’s own admission, since their first flight, they have never generated an operating profit. Never.

They have survived on investor capital and real estate transactions. There’s only so much left to use up before things fall apart …. and flying jets will make that happen quicker.

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Looks like the Deluce family is doing it again in YHU. Another land and development transaction. Between hedging the purchase of E2s with lessors and getting into YHU, I'd say they are doing ok. 16 years so far and counting.

I dunno, tough to really see your view on Porter. It certainly makes me curious as in my current position I, and my colleagues would respectfully disagree. There are obviously issues with large pay discrepancies on the E2 left to right and in comparison to the Q, which have created some questions, but most I've talked to are willing to ride it out and see.

A few are taking advantage of this industry growth and going somewhere they are more excited about, i.e Air Canada. All the power to them.

[braaap Braap]

This ties into my 3rd point. How successful will they be against Air Canada and Westjet? Timei will tell.

By Porter’s own admission, since their first flight, they have never generated an operating profit. Never.

They have survived on investor capital and real estate transactions. There’s only so much left to use up before things fall apart …. and flying jets will make that happen quicker.

If one were a gambling man, Porter could pan out. But if one had a mortgage to pay or family to feed, there are less risky ways to do that.

Do you have a source on that?

[Crewbunk]

Do you have a source on that?

If you recall, Porter owned the passenger terminal at YTZ. That gave them full control of “slots” and other than about a dozen used by Jazz, they had the monopoly. (A very shrewd real estate investment).

They sold the terminal about three years ago for a net profit of about $500M. (Looking like they were burning furniture to heat the house, but that’s just my opinion). However, now they had to pay for their “slots”. This cost them about $50M / year. And more importantly, they had to pay that to retain their near monopoly at YTZ.

When Covid shut down the airline, they stopped paying for those “slots”, claiming non use. A court case ensued, and the judge sided with the new owners that Porter owed over $100M in arrears.

If you look at the documentation of that court case, you will see Porter’s “presentation of hardship” which included their financial results. It’s the first time they publicly acknowledged what many had estimated.

[braaap Braap]

If you recall, Porter owned the passenger terminal at YTZ. That gave them full control of “slots” and other than about a dozen used by Jazz, they had the monopoly. (A very shrewd real estate investment).

They sold the terminal about three years ago for a net profit of about $500M. (Looking like they were burning furniture to heat the house, but that’s just my opinion). However, now they had to pay for their “slots”. This cost them about $50M / year. And more importantly, they had to pay that to retain their near monopoly at YTZ.

When Covid shut down the airline, they stopped paying for those “slots”, claiming non use. A court case ensued, and the judge sided with the new owners that Porter owed over $100M in arrears.

If you look at the documentation of that court case, you will see Porter’s “presentation of hardship” which included their financial results. It’s the first time they publicly acknowledged what many had estimated.

Interesting. Yes I've heard rumblings of all that. Couldn't tell if it was also just lawyer/courtroom games. Do you know where someone can access those court documents?

[Captain101]

Would it make sense for an E2 captain to leave for AC now with the new E2 captain pay scales at Porter? It would be almost a $100k pay cut the first year but is it true that the upgrade times on the narrow body at AC are now roughly 2 years? Also looking at the long term benefits since AC has a pension does anyone know how the pension at AC actually works? Also trying to consider the life time earnings since I have 30 years till I hit 65. My estimate is that life time earnings will be more at AC since there is an opportunity to move to the widebody.

[CaptDukeNukem]

If you recall, Porter owned the passenger terminal at YTZ. That gave them full control of “slots” and other than about a dozen used by Jazz, they had the monopoly. (A very shrewd real estate investment).

They sold the terminal about three years ago for a net profit of about $500M. (Looking like they were burning furniture to heat the house, but that’s just my opinion). However, now they had to pay for their “slots”. This cost them about $50M / year. And more importantly, they had to pay that to retain their near monopoly at YTZ.

When Covid shut down the airline, they stopped paying for those “slots”, claiming non use. A court case ensued, and the judge sided with the new owners that Porter owed over $100M in arrears.

If you look at the documentation of that court case, you will see Porter’s “presentation of hardship” which included their financial results. It’s the first time they publicly acknowledged what many had estimated.

Interesting. Yes I've heard rumblings of all that. Couldn't tell if it was also just lawyer/courtroom games. Do you know where someone can access those court documents?

You can search for court cases on Ontario’s website.
Google “search Ontario Supreme Court cases”
You need to create an account but I’m sure if you’re interested enough it’ll be there.

I did however find this which is an easier read.

https://gowlingwlg.com/en/insights-reso ... ior-court/

[rudder]

Would it make sense for an E2 captain to leave for AC now with the new E2 captain pay scales at Porter? It would be almost a $100k pay cut the first year but is it true that the upgrade times on the narrow body at AC are now roughly 2 years? Also looking at the long term benefits since AC has a pension does anyone know how the pension at AC actually works? Also trying to consider the life time earnings since I have 30 years till I hit 65. My estimate is that life time earnings will be more at AC since there is an opportunity to move to the widebody.

In the not too distant future, upgrade times at AC will return to a more normal timeframe (5+ years). It will all depend where you sit in the nearly 2000 pilot hiring wave which is already 700-800 in.

Pension alone is a good enough reason to go to AC if you are 35 or younger. Might even work at age 40. You will never amass the retirement amount in a matching DC or RRSP account compared to the AC CWIPP.

[Captain101]

As for pension I was reading in the CBA that for example if one is to retire in 2024 the MPU is $4996. If one did 30 years of service would their annual pension be $4996 x 30 = $149,880. Not sure if my understanding of it is correct but just trying to come up to a ball park figure of what my pension could be if I retire after 30 years at AC.

Thanks for any info.

[flyinhigh]

As for pension I was reading in the CBA that for example if one is to retire in 2024 the MPU is $4996. If one did 30 years of service would their annual pension be $4996 x 30 = $149,880. Not sure if my understanding of it is correct but just trying to come up to a ball park figure of what my pension could be if I retire after 30 years at AC.

Thanks for any info.

Pretty sure these questions, I don’t know, belong in the AC form.

[smooth]

At 63K per annum, it’s pretty descent.

I did think the DH8 should have come up though. Folks who were on the fence about transferring over previously will be bailing from the Dash program in a New York minute now, leaving that program severely deprived.

You think $63k for an Embraer FO is decent?

That is concerning...

The guys at AC think 56k is just right for a 777 driver. 63 for a 136k lb plane is relatively better,

i die

[BlackHawkOne]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

I’m not on the Q but based on 45.77 a credit with a minimum 80 MMG, gross pay would be 3661$ a month. With 35% deductions you’re looking at $1200 ish per check.

Not including per diems, which isn’t epic, but can help.

[CaptDukeNukem]

My apologies, I used the old pay scales in previous calculations.

New fo rate year one is 50.01$

So 4000$ gross per month. Taxed roughly at 35%, without any per diems, $1300 take home per cheque. No OT, or per diems.

[Ozinater]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

[kiaszceski]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

[CaptDukeNukem]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

Per diem rate is 3.60$ per duty hour. Q block holders around the 70-80 mark right now. Min guarantee is 80. Anything after 85 is OT. I believe there’s plenty of OT to be had. Paid at 1.5 on GDOs or VAC regardless of how many credits accrued.

[Ozinater]

Hi,

I would like to know what take home pay can we expect , first year on the Q as FO, after alle the deductions ?
thanks guys

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

$3.60/hour as mentioned above. So far this winter about $700-$900 in perdiems a month. Looking at a few schedules, some coworkers who bid for 3 & 4 day pairings in March are getting around $1000-$1200 in perdiems.

[braaap Braap]

Current hourly rate is $50.01. For one paycheck that's $2000 gross. Then there's a $27 dry cleaning allowance and $30 transportation stipend. Less $468 in deductions and that leaves you with $1589 takehome (no per diems included), so $3178 each month.

Well, that's $1000 more than Year 1 at Jazz each month.
How much are the perdiems and what's the average for a block holder?

Per diem rate is 3.60$ per duty hour. Q block holders around the 70-80 mark right now. Min guarantee is 80. Anything after 85 is OT. I believe there’s plenty of OT to be had. Paid at 1.5 on GDOs or VAC regardless of how many credits accrued.

Small clarification (not trying to nit pick), per diem is $3.60/hour duty + time away from base. I figure the following:

1 day = ~$50
2 day = ~$125
3 day = ~$210
4 day = ~$350

I dont work a lot of multi days and I usually have ~$300-$400 per pay check.