This is a request to all pilots who think its OK to change to what they think the next frequency will be without being given an instruction to do so.
At YYZ we use electronic flight data. The details for your flight are passed electronically from the display of one controller to the next and even to Apron. If you decide to change frequency without being told, the next controller has no idea who you are or where you are and cannot give you any instructions until the data has arrived. This means shouting at their colleague to get the data. If you transferred on your own because you think "north ground was busy" then he's going to get busier trying to find you and you've done nothing to ease south ground's workload.
We try to keep you moving but sometimes the frequency becomes too congested to get a transfer done in time and you'll come to a stop. By transfering yourself, you're guaranteeing to come to a stop. If you're going to DV we lose sight of you behind T1 as you pass DQ and sometimes we'll forget to give the transfer. A polite "to apron?" is all that's required. "Approaching..." when you're still 1000 feet from your hold short is extremely annoying. We know you are and we'll try to give you further but there's somebody transmitting. Oh its you!
As an aside - We know you want to go in AK but there are times it isn't going to happen especially with the closure on A.
Don't change from ground to tower until told to do so. You don't know your sequence and he won't have your details, so you're not going anywhere. You've got a 50/50 chance of getting the wrong frequency anyway! A sure way of being delayed is being on the wrong tower frequency.
Do not call departure without being given the frequency change. Some guys give "28.8 in the air" with take off clearance (we're not supposed to anymore) and some will say "stay with me". Just because we don't say "stay with me" doesn't mean you can change. In most operations, when you are departing there is either an arrival close behind, a departure alongside or both. If you're in between frequencies and we need to talk to you in a hurry due to a missed approach or a departure deviation and you've switched to departure, then good luck.
119.1 - I know it seems like ground is a mess. It is a mess. We have to taxy aircraft all over the place because crossovers in the air are not welcomed, although there are initiatives being used to expand on their use. 119.1 is used to ease the workload of the other 2 grounds such as in de-icing or a snow event. Whenever we are using the 3 parallel runways simultaneously it is a requirement that 119.1 is opened to allow 121.9 more time to work traffic in the south complex which can arrive in batches as tower crosses it from the outer and to watch for possible incursions.
Here's another place not to change frequency, between the 24s/06s. If you switch to 121.9 between those runways you are the first link in a runway incursion chain. South ground is not expecting to talk to you until you are north of 06L/24R and so might give you an instruction which could have you crossing in front of a departure.
Please think before you change frequency and don't just do it because you think it will be OK. Would you change frequency in the air because you think its appropriate? Thought not.
Please feel free to pass this on, pin it up in your crew rooms. Just help get the message across. Your help will be appreciated.
Thanks
YYZ Frequency changes
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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Expatriated
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Well, as someone who is based out of YYZ it's nice to get a bit of background info from ATC every now and then. I think a lot of the pilots flying out of here sometimes wonder why in world things are done the way they are here at Pearson. It can truly be a head scratcher at times!
Of course us "pilots" are perfect and would probably try to do things differently (note the sarcasm here folks) but i'd hate to see the result of a bunch of pilots trying to run ATC!
Try using the term "approaching" when nearing a taxiway at some other ariports in the world and you'll be sitting there watching everyone else go by as your clearance has mysteriously vanished into the system!
I can assure you that any missunderstandings here are just a result of our lack of understanding of the "system" as a whole...that or the rush to beat Air France to the customs hall after sitting for 12 hours! We can always see it from our point of view but not necessarily from ground or towers.
Long story short, i'm sure everyone appreciates a bit of "behind the scenes" info every now and then.
Of course us "pilots" are perfect and would probably try to do things differently (note the sarcasm here folks) but i'd hate to see the result of a bunch of pilots trying to run ATC!
Try using the term "approaching" when nearing a taxiway at some other ariports in the world and you'll be sitting there watching everyone else go by as your clearance has mysteriously vanished into the system!
I can assure you that any missunderstandings here are just a result of our lack of understanding of the "system" as a whole...that or the rush to beat Air France to the customs hall after sitting for 12 hours! We can always see it from our point of view but not necessarily from ground or towers.
Long story short, i'm sure everyone appreciates a bit of "behind the scenes" info every now and then.
We had a similar problem where pilots were switching to the next sector's frequency without being instructed to do so. This is a potentially dangerous situation.
Many sectors have agreements in place whereby when an a/c checks in, automatic control transfer takes place. This means that even though the a/c may still be in the previous sector's airspace, it is now under the control of the next sector.
Obviously, sector "A" will not switch the a/c to sector "B" until it is clear of all of sector "A's" traffic. In at least one situation, the pilot changed frequencies on his/her own and was not clear of sector "A's" traffic. Since sector "B" knows the agreement, he/she assumes the aircraft is now his/her control and vectors/climbs/descends the a/c into traffic in sector "A".
Many sectors have agreements in place whereby when an a/c checks in, automatic control transfer takes place. This means that even though the a/c may still be in the previous sector's airspace, it is now under the control of the next sector.
Obviously, sector "A" will not switch the a/c to sector "B" until it is clear of all of sector "A's" traffic. In at least one situation, the pilot changed frequencies on his/her own and was not clear of sector "A's" traffic. Since sector "B" knows the agreement, he/she assumes the aircraft is now his/her control and vectors/climbs/descends the a/c into traffic in sector "A".
Its too bad that we can't standardize things in Canada. In YVR for example we change from ground to tower on our own when we get to the runway. If we wait for ground to tell us to switch, tower will be giving us a takeoff clearance while we're still sitting on ground frequency waiting to be switched. Similar thing in YYC. Very rarely do they tell you to switch to the tower frequency. I'm not sure why there are differences in the system but that could explain why some guys who aren't familliar with YYZ are switching without being told.
Yup I'm sure. Fly in and out of their almost everyday. (well when I'm working anyway!) They are using coded routes for taxi most of the time and if you read the whole page it tells you when to switch to tower, but there are still guys that give you the old clearance (eg Lima, cross 12 to Lima 4 with no indication of when to switch to tower) I guess like pilots, some old habits die hard for controllers as well!! LOL
Yes it is nice to know what's going on at the other end of the mic. but visits in either direction are very few and far between its sad to say.
We've started trialing standard taxy routes but with limited success. The number of crews who have no idea what we're talking about is remarkably high. The standard route, especially to 05, isn't that user friendly. North ground particularly is highly dynamic and requires great flexibility to make it all run well.
As for having embedded frequency changes, well here its a non-starter. How many times have you been on C heading for 24R and been told to give way to traffic from DT or even DV? If you're already on tower it would be impossible to keep things moving.
I'd be more than happy to give more background or answers to those "why's he doing that?" questions. Fire away!
We've started trialing standard taxy routes but with limited success. The number of crews who have no idea what we're talking about is remarkably high. The standard route, especially to 05, isn't that user friendly. North ground particularly is highly dynamic and requires great flexibility to make it all run well.
As for having embedded frequency changes, well here its a non-starter. How many times have you been on C heading for 24R and been told to give way to traffic from DT or even DV? If you're already on tower it would be impossible to keep things moving.
I'd be more than happy to give more background or answers to those "why's he doing that?" questions. Fire away!
Well I haven’t been in YYZ for a while and have to admit I wasn’t ready for six frequency changes to go from T3 to runway 33R 
. It is good to hear some feedback while flight crews need to listen and write down the clearance. Keep in mind that controllers are very familiar with the airport while pilots experience a lot of airports each with different procedures.
My only gripe is controllers (and pilots) that try to talk as fast as they can…..they just end up repeating themselves two and three times.
In 20 years of flying the best controller that I have ever worked with was “er..rog” in YYZ terminal (now in Montreal). He is a master controller and a pleasure to work with.
. It is good to hear some feedback while flight crews need to listen and write down the clearance. Keep in mind that controllers are very familiar with the airport while pilots experience a lot of airports each with different procedures. My only gripe is controllers (and pilots) that try to talk as fast as they can…..they just end up repeating themselves two and three times.
In 20 years of flying the best controller that I have ever worked with was “er..rog” in YYZ terminal (now in Montreal). He is a master controller and a pleasure to work with.
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Jaques Strappe
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YYZTower
I appreciate your explanation but have to say that in comparison to the rest of the world, YYZ seems to overcomplicate everything.
The other day I pushed out of gate 259 for departure off 24R. I had to taxi all the way to AM ( frequency change ) then victor and delta all the way back to where I started from and yes, we were the only aircraft in that corner of the airport! Had I known ATC was going to do that, I would have done a single engine taxi!
I understand the concept of oneway inbound and outbound routes but honestly, if there is no traffic why not just straight out DV?
Pilots are convinced that controllers are paid per transmission. If you know that we are taxiing inbound on Delta and will be entering the ramp at DV, why not just say "taxi Delta and call apron at DV" ? It is a constant progressive taxi instruction. There are threads on here about wasted conversations on the radio, YYZ ranks way up there.
I appreciate your explanation but have to say that in comparison to the rest of the world, YYZ seems to overcomplicate everything.
The other day I pushed out of gate 259 for departure off 24R. I had to taxi all the way to AM ( frequency change ) then victor and delta all the way back to where I started from and yes, we were the only aircraft in that corner of the airport! Had I known ATC was going to do that, I would have done a single engine taxi!
I understand the concept of oneway inbound and outbound routes but honestly, if there is no traffic why not just straight out DV?
Pilots are convinced that controllers are paid per transmission. If you know that we are taxiing inbound on Delta and will be entering the ramp at DV, why not just say "taxi Delta and call apron at DV" ? It is a constant progressive taxi instruction. There are threads on here about wasted conversations on the radio, YYZ ranks way up there.
Standby for new atis message
Hi Jaques
I was on the other day in southtower at that time and my colleague in south ground was as surprised as you were at the routing. Apron admitted the error. This was a one off I'm sure. There are a lot of aircraft that exit at DV, or DW while it was open, for 24R, you were just unlucky!
We're trying to simplify things but we have to work with what we have. Any suggestions? And don't say departure from the closest runway. You need to convince Terminal of the merits of that, not us! They are reluctant to have free-flow departures in that manner. They want them segregated the way they are with only a few "non-conformers". We in the tower become the whipping boys (and girl) who have to drive you half way to Brampton from T2! I believe there is a project to redesign the terminal's airspace, maybe that will bring forth improvements. Until then...
I was on the other day in southtower at that time and my colleague in south ground was as surprised as you were at the routing. Apron admitted the error. This was a one off I'm sure. There are a lot of aircraft that exit at DV, or DW while it was open, for 24R, you were just unlucky!
We're trying to simplify things but we have to work with what we have. Any suggestions? And don't say departure from the closest runway. You need to convince Terminal of the merits of that, not us! They are reluctant to have free-flow departures in that manner. They want them segregated the way they are with only a few "non-conformers". We in the tower become the whipping boys (and girl) who have to drive you half way to Brampton from T2! I believe there is a project to redesign the terminal's airspace, maybe that will bring forth improvements. Until then...
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Jaques Strappe
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AAaaahhh...............you saw that did ya? 
I agree it must have been a one off but the reason we didn't question it is because anything seems possible.
I like the standard taxi route charts but honestly, I have only been given a clearance to "taxi via route 5" once. There seems to be alot of hold short clearances even when I cannot see any conflicts. (ie "taxi bravo short of tango". I get there and wonder why was I told to hold short? There is nobody here.) I assume it is like the center, where the airspace is divided up and you have to get a handoff accepted before allowing us to go further because that part of the airport is under the control of another controller.
In Chicago for instance, a single contoller will rattle off a taxi clearance and then expect us not to hit anything along the way. He may tell us to give way to someone along the route but Toronto is fixed on progressive taxi instructions. I don't understand it.
I agree it must have been a one off but the reason we didn't question it is because anything seems possible.I like the standard taxi route charts but honestly, I have only been given a clearance to "taxi via route 5" once. There seems to be alot of hold short clearances even when I cannot see any conflicts. (ie "taxi bravo short of tango". I get there and wonder why was I told to hold short? There is nobody here.) I assume it is like the center, where the airspace is divided up and you have to get a handoff accepted before allowing us to go further because that part of the airport is under the control of another controller.
In Chicago for instance, a single contoller will rattle off a taxi clearance and then expect us not to hit anything along the way. He may tell us to give way to someone along the route but Toronto is fixed on progressive taxi instructions. I don't understand it.
Standby for new atis message
B short T is a control transfer point and so its got to be a hold short.
We try and give as uninterrupted route as we can, but there are just so many points of conflict that it becomes impossible.
Route 5 looks good on paper but if we let departures run on that route without hindrance, then everything on B, 15L and E southbound has to miss them. It isn't going to happen that way. We need the flexibility to change it as the need requires to keep the overall flow going at the expense maybe of some rather than most traffic stopping.
Have you been up here for a look see? You'd be made welcome.
We try and give as uninterrupted route as we can, but there are just so many points of conflict that it becomes impossible.
Route 5 looks good on paper but if we let departures run on that route without hindrance, then everything on B, 15L and E southbound has to miss them. It isn't going to happen that way. We need the flexibility to change it as the need requires to keep the overall flow going at the expense maybe of some rather than most traffic stopping.
Have you been up here for a look see? You'd be made welcome.
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Jaques Strappe
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Cargo Pilot
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Cargo Pilot
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Sorry - double post
Last edited by Cargo Pilot on Sun Nov 20, 2005 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
FAR TOO MANYPachanga wrote:What moron switches frequencies without being told to do so in an IFR or controlled environment!?!?
In YYZ I imagne its a nightmare. Even for the controllers elsewhere, it is a potentially BAD situation that wastes ALOT of time.
You should read back the change, or at least give a grunt of acknowledgement...something, anything is better than just switching
Try three days ago. Had a WJA pilot switch to the next sector's frequency without my instruction. The only reason I even knew about it is the next sector called me on the "hotline" and said "Hey, WJAXXX came over pretty early did you switch him to me already?"Pachanga wrote:What moron switches frequencies without being told to do so in an IFR or controlled environment!?!?
This is my point. You aren't switching frequencies on your own. You have been instructed to switch frequencies at a certain location. It doesn't matter if the instruction is verbal or written (on a chart) it still is an instruction and the controllers are expecting it.bcflyer wrote:Yup I'm sure. Fly in and out of their almost everyday. (well when I'm working anyway!) They are using coded routes for taxi most of the time and if you read the whole page it tells you when to switch to tower,
I'm enjoying this forum, just want to remind the AI's that using the airline name might cause a few problems with the privacy laws since anyone can access the forum.
Started working out of Toronto this month and so far it's been pretty good. One long taxi and the rest short. One cross winds over 25 knots the rest OK. Having a great time and I am planning to visit the tower soon.
Started working out of Toronto this month and so far it's been pretty good. One long taxi and the rest short. One cross winds over 25 knots the rest OK. Having a great time and I am planning to visit the tower soon.
I wish I could spell
Jaques
You could certainly do that, but ideally if you could give some notice it would be better. Try and avoid a snow event as there won't be any spare bodies to talk to you! PM me if you wan't specifics.
Wasn't Me
I'm glad you're enjoying it. We'll try to keep up the good work. Don't mention the cross winds!
You could certainly do that, but ideally if you could give some notice it would be better. Try and avoid a snow event as there won't be any spare bodies to talk to you! PM me if you wan't specifics.
Wasn't Me
I'm glad you're enjoying it. We'll try to keep up the good work. Don't mention the cross winds!
YYZ Tower,
Once again, all of this info is very useful. I was once an offender of switching early a few years ago. Operating out of YYZ all the time, I became conditioned to hearing 'stay with me' and once when I didn't hear it launching off of 24R, went to 28.8 in the air. Of course then tower launched an RJ right after us and needed us in the turn...but we were gone! Won't do that again!
With regard to switching to tower at the hold line (without instruction to 'monitor' from ground), I have experienced a few occasions where we haven't switched and instead sat on the hold line or even were still in the taxi to, and tower was already looking for us to squeeze us in before the next lander. Lately, if there has been no instruction to switch by the hold line, we go ahead over to 18.7 (north) or 18.35 respectively (although it seems to be a guess when 33's/15's are in use and I'll usually wait for that one). You're saying this is not a good idea?
Thanks for the info...very welcome! The big picture became very clear after running into a few of your colleagues at Failte one night and made a world of difference to operating when you understand what the other end of the mic is trying to accomplish.
BTW, is Rob still up there?
Cheers
Once again, all of this info is very useful. I was once an offender of switching early a few years ago. Operating out of YYZ all the time, I became conditioned to hearing 'stay with me' and once when I didn't hear it launching off of 24R, went to 28.8 in the air. Of course then tower launched an RJ right after us and needed us in the turn...but we were gone! Won't do that again!
With regard to switching to tower at the hold line (without instruction to 'monitor' from ground), I have experienced a few occasions where we haven't switched and instead sat on the hold line or even were still in the taxi to, and tower was already looking for us to squeeze us in before the next lander. Lately, if there has been no instruction to switch by the hold line, we go ahead over to 18.7 (north) or 18.35 respectively (although it seems to be a guess when 33's/15's are in use and I'll usually wait for that one). You're saying this is not a good idea?
Thanks for the info...very welcome! The big picture became very clear after running into a few of your colleagues at Failte one night and made a world of difference to operating when you understand what the other end of the mic is trying to accomplish.
BTW, is Rob still up there?
Cheers
Kurwa,
The tower would only be "looking for you" if they had the data sent to them by ground, otherwise he wouldn't know who you were. Did you miss a frequency change maybe?
I don't advocate guessing the frequency as there's a chance you'll get it wrong and that doesn't help at all. Just a polite reminder "..to tower?" is usually enough, but only if you're sure you're number one. On C there's still a chance that you may have traffic slotted in in front right up to the last minute.
As for the 33s/15s - 15L/33R is usually 118.7 and 15R/33L is usually 118.35. However there are exceptions!
When departing 33R definately do not change even if you are number one at the hold line. There can be several lines for the runway being sequenced on D and V on both sides of the runway. You may think you're number one at D on the east side but be number 10 or more!
Check your PMs
The tower would only be "looking for you" if they had the data sent to them by ground, otherwise he wouldn't know who you were. Did you miss a frequency change maybe?
I don't advocate guessing the frequency as there's a chance you'll get it wrong and that doesn't help at all. Just a polite reminder "..to tower?" is usually enough, but only if you're sure you're number one. On C there's still a chance that you may have traffic slotted in in front right up to the last minute.
As for the 33s/15s - 15L/33R is usually 118.7 and 15R/33L is usually 118.35. However there are exceptions!
When departing 33R definately do not change even if you are number one at the hold line. There can be several lines for the runway being sequenced on D and V on both sides of the runway. You may think you're number one at D on the east side but be number 10 or more!
Check your PMs
