New hire thoughts

[flying4dollars]

Everyone's situations will be different. I'm 39, left a lucrative 737 left seat salary for 4 year flat pay at AC. I did it because I knew what I was getting into. I could also afford it and I knew things would get better and I would do what I could to contribute to that. Based on movement, positions, growth etc, it is likely I will see the left seat this or next year. It will then put me at what I was making at my last gig. From there it will only get better. In terms of my junior FO schedule, I have been averaging about 10-15 days worked on reserve and everyone I've flown with has been just great. I'm still living off my banked salary at my last position so financially I'm doing just fine and life is pretty good. It came down to the fact I couldn't guarantee my last position would be available to me up to my retirement. The chances of that here are exponentially greater. Also the pension and retirement factor here played a big role, as well as the travel benefits (which my parents and I use religiously). For me, the move made so much sense. It may not be the same for someone else at my age with a family and other financial (or life) commitments.

Only you can answer this for yourself. There is more than enough information on life here at your fingertips. Spend some time and go through all the threads applicable to your questions and decide for yourselves. Best advice I can give you.

This job will NOT be for everyone and that's okay, it doesn't need to be. Best of luck to anyone pondering their career moves.

[Curiousflyer]

I joined in my 50s and have no regrets. This month I'm working 15 days, just finishing 10 consecutive days off without taking vacation. I have 3 years with the Company.

Hiring is going so fast you won't be junior very long, and the 4 year flat pay will be gone soon as well. You can upgrade and be off flat pay in 2-3 years then make $200K+. I suggest not falling for the 21 days of work per month or any of that nonsense. Sure, it can happen but is very unusual. I think my max days has been 19 with inefficient pairings and SIM in my first year.

Anyone who takes 6 months to get paid for missed expenses isn't doing it correctly. The process is simple. I had a full day missed last month, put the line into the appropriate webpage, and it was answered and solved the next day.

I could go on, but if you have 20+ years to go, for me its a no-brainer. Picture where you will be 7-10 years from now with AC. That would be a great schedule as a WB FO and $160K at least a year, or mid seniority NB Capt at $200k+.

You may hear a lot of 'complaints' about AC, but remember you are likely hearing from 5% of the pilots who work there. The rest aren't on forums and are quite happy.

Just my 2 cents.

The 6 month delay for expenses was not in relation to per diems, but new hire expense claims.

You may want to define the parameters of what you consider a ‘good’ schedule. Looking at current 7-10 year WB FO’s is between seniority 2200-2700, 2000 numbers away from new hire positions.

That seniority range has the following:

330 FO - Out of about a dozen pilots, 3 pilots on reserve, 3 pilots with 20 days, 1 pilot with 15 days, and the rest between 17-19. All the block holders are working the majority of the weekends.

787 FO- Out of around 20 pilots, 8 pilots on reserve, 2 pilots with 19 days, 1 pilot down to 14 days, and the rest between 16-18. All the block holders are working the majority of weekends.

777-FO - Out of 15 pilots, 6 pilots on reserve, 1 pilot with 10 days, the rest are between 14-16. All the block holders are working the majority of weekends.


So 7-10 years in as a WB FO, making $160+ the options are either reserve, or work every weekend and if you prefer the long haul, get your days worked down to 14.

I’m just trying to present the facts in an unbiased way, so that fellow aviators can make an honest assessment of their career projections and expectations.

[Inverted2]

The shitty thing is the new flight duty times we were all wanting ended up making us work more days per month no matter what company you work for. So far I am personally away from home 1-2 days more a month and not really feeling any more rested.

[rudder]

So 7-10 years in as a WB FO, making $160+ the options are either reserve, or work every weekend and if you prefer the long haul, get your days worked down to 14.

I’m just trying to present the facts in an unbiased way, so that fellow aviators can make an honest assessment of their career projections and expectations.

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

[PositiveRate27]

So 7-10 years in as a WB FO, making $160+ the options are either reserve, or work every weekend and if you prefer the long haul, get your days worked down to 14.

I’m just trying to present the facts in an unbiased way, so that fellow aviators can make an honest assessment of their career projections and expectations.

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

That is correct. And let’s also be clear: The forecasted upgrade times for the 787/777 are in the neighbourhood of 20-25 years. That means if you’re in your early 30’s when hired you won’t see that fat $300k/yr until you’re in your mid to late 50’s and you’ll be bottom of the list rsv working Christmas and bidding dead last for vacation.Top scale NB CA earns you $210k a year at 75 credits. Most guys say they earn $220k-$230k a year with per diems + training and slightly higher DBMS some months. Unfortunately you won’t qualify for a mortgage on the average house in YYZ or YVR with that salary. If you want to ride out the WB FO for your career until you can upgrade to CA on the WB it is even less than that.

Is it a fantastic job? Absolutely. Is it the best show in town? Probably. Does it have glaring issues that absolutely HAVE to be addressed and no longer ignored? 100% yes. We have to take our heads out of the sand and claw our way to the excellent WAWCON this profession used to be known for. The shortage is here. Other airlines are offering excellent career choices now. People should look at all their options and choose wisely, especially if they are 40+.

[Crewbunk]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

[altiplano]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

There are not many making that.

[rudder]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

There are not many making that.

Once again, a debate about whether AC pilots are appropriately compensated considering their relative position in the Canadian industry. It shouldn’t be a debate. It should be a slam dunk.

[FNGYYZ]

You may hear a lot of 'complaints' about AC, but remember you are likely hearing from 5% of the pilots who work there. The rest aren't on forums and are quite happy.

THIS x 1000. 95% of the guys I work with are perfectly happy 90% of the time. I guarantee that most of the insane negativity here are that other 5% who will NEVER be happy about ANYTHING. We all know those guys. (And what an utter JOY they are to fly with. )

My T4 was $72K. Thats 6 months at year 2 and 6 months at year 3 pay. Per diems on the narrow body are about $1100 a month for 16 days at work.
Hope the helps.

Lol...a pilot complaining about the complainers making $72k Canadian a year to fly a commercial airline at a global legacy carrier.

You just can't make this stuff up folks

[cjp]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

E2 Capitan @ 960 annual credits.

Yr 1 - 155k
Yr 10 - 238k (factoring for CPI)

That's if no further benchmarking took place between now and 2033.

Westjet has provided a fantastic opportunity for Porter to flourish.

[PositiveRate27]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

There are not many making that.

Top scale 320/737 CA makes a blended Day/Night rate of $233/hr

$233/hr x 85hrs/month = $237,660/yr

Even less for the A220

85hrs is the maximum AC is allowed to block us to and it definitely doesn’t happen every month. 85 hours would most definitely be 16 days a month. In order to achieve $275k-$290k a year a pilot would have to work an insane amount of OT. I’m sure these people exist but I’d be willing to wager it’s a single digit percentage of the pilot group.

[ZBBYLW]

Since LOU74 was paused, I doubt many guys are earning 275k or over on the NB. When LOU74 in force there were lots of guys doing well.

[Fanblade]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

[DanWEC]

Ah, good to know that you only have to work 20 hours of OT every month to make a salary that's still not globally competitive, but at least 30% higher than a regional.

I'm not bashing AC, but I am, as well as all the majors. But I'm also optimistic it's going to change real quick, and it MUST be without concessions. The companies have enjoyed low wages for long enough- we're far, FAR behind in wages but on par with hours and benefits. Therefore a pure pay adjustment is the only acceptable solution to bring us up to at least goddamn average.

[eagle7044]

Ah, good to know that you only have to work 20 hours of OT every month to make a salary that's still not globally competitive, but at least 30% higher than a regional.

I'm not bashing AC, but I am, as well as all the majors. But I'm also optimistic it's going to change real quick, and it MUST be without concessions. The companies have enjoyed low wages for long enough- we're far, FAR behind in wages but on par with hours and benefits. Therefore a pure pay adjustment is the only acceptable solution to bring us up to at least goddamn average.

What is AC's incentive for doing so? AC is having no trouble finding resumés, and the only thing holding them back from more experienced pilots is the stingy flat pay that some people think is too great a sacrifice. The irony is that the flat pay situation is just about the only thing that AC pilots can leverage in negotiations right now, but the company's attitude towards its pilot group was proven when they tried to make it something *we* wanted and then had the gall to ask for major concessions to get it.

In a climate where WJ's CEO just openly admitted he'd rather park airplanes than pay pilots a competitive wage, citing ALPA's memes as the literal reason why people aren't applying to WJ (as opposed to, say, their lousy working conditions), I can't understand how anyone could be optimistic with future gains. This is at the same time American's CEO has written a letter to their pilot group reaffirming how committed he is to matching better contracts and keeping them happy (475 USD a year for narrow, 590 for wide, and wide contract improvements for QOL.) AC has demonstrated NONE of this good faith.

So what incentive could AC POSSIBLY have for changing this mentality?

[newcomer]

What is AC's incentive for doing so? AC is having no trouble finding resumés, and the only thing holding them back from more experienced pilots is the stingy flat pay that some people think is too great a sacrifice.

Do you think Delta or American had trouble finding resumés? All the regional pilots, and pilots at Atlas, Amerijet, etc...were applying to the legacies anyway.
Legacies never had any issues finding pilots, unlike the regionals. Yet they're still increasing the pay. Why? Strong unions.

[Crewbunk]

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

[schnitzel2k3]

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

I guess the interview didn't go well?

[Crewbunk]

I guess the interview didn't go well?

Interview?

I’m a 35 year A330 Captain at Air Canada. No, I didn’t apply at Porter.

But, I do have an MBA in Aviation, (from Concordia in Montreal) and I look at Porter with fascination. Since their first flight 15 years ago they have not achieved an operating profit, surviving on investor capital and real estate deals. The E2 operation is aiming in the same direction.

[schnitzel2k3]

I guess the interview didn't go well?

Interview?

I’m a 35 year A330 Captain at Air Canada. No, I didn’t apply at Porter.

But, I do have an MBA in Aviation, (from Concordia in Montreal) and I look at Porter with fascination. Since their first flight 15 years ago they have not achieved an operating profit, surviving on investor capital and real estate deals. The E2 operation is aiming in the same direction.

Makes sense now, thanks. You led me astray when you mentioned your friend on the 767F was pulling in 22,500, and then ripped on Porter - it sounded strange. What are you pulling in on average a month on the 330? One would imagine it would be higher than the freighter division.

Porter likely survives because the Deluce family loves aviation. Robert I believe is a pilot himself. It's really hard to determine with a certainty how the jet operation will affect the profitability of the company. I would likely say if the Dash operstion over 16 years hasn't produced a profit - it likely would be on the chopping block - not the E2.

[Captain101]

So 7-10 years in as a WB FO, making $160+ the options are either reserve, or work every weekend and if you prefer the long haul, get your days worked down to 14.

I’m just trying to present the facts in an unbiased way, so that fellow aviators can make an honest assessment of their career projections and expectations.

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

That is correct. And let’s also be clear: The forecasted upgrade times for the 787/777 are in the neighbourhood of 20-25 years. That means if you’re in your early 30’s when hired you won’t see that fat $300k/yr until you’re in your mid to late 50’s and you’ll be bottom of the list rsv working Christmas and bidding dead last for vacation.Top scale NB CA earns you $210k a year at 75 credits. Most guys say they earn $220k-$230k a year with per diems + training and slightly higher DBMS some months. Unfortunately you won’t qualify for a mortgage on the average house in YYZ or YVR with that salary. If you want to ride out the WB FO for your career until you can upgrade to CA on the WB it is even less than that.

Is it a fantastic job? Absolutely. Is it the best show in town? Probably. Does it have glaring issues that absolutely HAVE to be addressed and no longer ignored? 100% yes. We have to take our heads out of the sand and claw our way to the excellent WAWCON this profession used to be known for. The shortage is here. Other airlines are offering excellent career choices now. People should look at all their options and choose wisely, especially if they are 40+.

As per the forecast you mentioned the upgrade time on the 787/777 is 20-25 years. I have been reading that on the NB it's between 3-5 years as of today. Is that still accurate? Also around what seniority # or years from today can one expect to hold a decent schedule as NB captain. I know that can be subjective from person to person but I am looking at just a couple of weekends off a month as a start or be able to bid single day pairings. My preference will be single day pairings.

[Fanblade]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

BS yet again.

A 10 year 767F CA in an 82 hour month is still under 20K. About 240K/ year. Overtime isn’t a raise. 50K is a lot of overtime.

You are embellishing what a 10 year 767 CA makes in a normal month. 290k/year is about an 18% overstatement. This is exactly why I stick to hourly pay only. Apples to apples.

I’m sure with the pilot shortage overtime is aplenty everywhere. But it’s not a raise.

[Crewbunk]

Makes sense now, thanks. You led me astray when you mentioned your friend on the 767F was pulling in 22,500, and then ripped on Porter - it sounded strange. What are you pulling in on average a month on the 330? One would imagine it would be higher than the freighter division.

Porter likely survives because the Deluce family loves aviation. Robert I believe is a pilot himself. It's really hard to determine with a certainty how the jet operation will affect the profitability of the company. I would likely say if the Dash operstion over 16 years hasn't produced a profit - it likely would be on the chopping block - not the E2.

I make about $25,000 a month, plus expenses and allowances. But, I am not a good gauge. I do no Voluntary Overtime and only accept a Draft, if forced, and only to “Draft and Drop”. My time off is very important to me, it’s why I don’t fly the higher paying 787 and 777.

My engagement in this thread was a response to the statement that a 10 year F/O making $160K at Air Canada compared to a DEC at Porter. In fact, the point I was making was one of the main attributes of Air Canada, and that is the choices. Want to be a senior WB F/O? It’s there. Mid level NB Captain, take your pick, there’s three. And now, with the current CMSC forecast, 10 years should get you 767F Captain. The candidates hired at the start of the present hiring spree are looking at a career of which we can only dream.

My comments about Porter were with respect. The Deluces have been in the business a long time. They are very shrewd businessmen. It has always been my opinion (just my opinion) that their aim has always been to sell it, like they did with Austin Airways, then Air Ontario. Keeping the Q and E2 operations as a separate company, it appears either are available to any buyer.

Personally, I am rooting for Porter. But, the economics of the E2 does not lend to a low cost carrier. Presently, they are competing with price even though I admire the on-board product.

[rudder]

Small sample size but the B767F CA that I have spoken to say poor QOL. Perhaps will improve as 767F fleet size increases.

It sure went junior in the last bid.

[BTD]

$160k after 7-10 years? That is year 1 pay for an E2 DEC at Porter.

Pretty well sums up what needs attention at AC.

If you wanted to actually compare apples to apples, you’d see a 10 year Captain makes about $275K to $290 a year at AC.

What’s the 10 year pay at Porter? That’s assuming they are anything but a distant memory in 10 years.

BS

NB Captain is about 230k without overtime. I rarely break 20k in a month. How much overtime are these guys you speak of doing?

Actually, I was looking at 767F Captain. A buddy is making about $22,500 a month. (Plus expenses). And plus about $3000 every time he picks up a Western turn on a draft, which is offered weekly.

But hell. If you’d rather jump to Porter to be a DEC, dig in. I’ll bet you a 26 of Johnnie Walker Blue, Porter Inc, (the jet operation) doesn’t exist in 10 years.

BS yet again.

A 10 year 767F CA in an 82 hour month is still under 20K. About 240K/ year. Overtime isn’t a raise. 50K is a lot of overtime.

You are embellishing what a 10 year 767 CA makes in a normal month. 290k/year is about an 18% overstatement. This is exactly why I stick to hourly pay only. Apples to apples.

I’m sure with the pilot shortage overtime is aplenty everywhere. But it’s not a raise.

I am also curious Crewbunk, what western turns is your buddy doing? I am a 767F captain and I haven’t seen anything west and almost no turns. Even Halifax and St. John’s are operate out DH back due to duty time limits and the limited fins right now.

Most flying is southern US, South America/Mexico and some Europe.