Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

[TheLastonetoknow]

For months, have 6 months of savings, and the company will come back to the pilots.
Be ready!

And this time frame is based on? I raise a spockian eyebrow on most guesstimates about strike length...

[pilot4life]

https://simpleflying.com/canada-expecte ... ng-merger/

[kiaszceski]

For months, have 6 months of savings, and the company will come back to the pilots.
Be ready!

And this time frame is based on? I raise a spockian eyebrow on most guesstimates about strike length...

You'll be the last one to know

[rigpiggy]

This was from 2011, not pilots, but the Fed's still did their thing

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/air-cana ... n%20loomed.

[JBI]

Huh?? Then how did air canada pilots get forced back to work 10 years ago?

This was from 2011, not pilots, but the Fed's still did their thing

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/air-cana ... n%20loomed.

In 2015, the Supreme Court ruled that the right to strike in Canada is a constitutional right in the decision Saskatchewan Federation of Labour v. Saskatchewan, 2015 SCC 4 (CanLII), [2015] 1 SCR 245, https://canlii.ca/t/gg40r

What that means is that now if a Government is going to impose back to work legislation that will basically deprive unionized employees with their constitutional right to strike, they need to invoke the "Notwithstanding Clause" in the Charter. This means that the Government KNOWS its passing legislation that violates the charter, but in spite of it being unconstitutional (definition of notwithstanding), they're doing it anyways.

Back in 2011, the right to strike hadn't been considered a constitutional right. Although Governments were generally very hesitant to get involved labour disputes, they were not required to enact the Notwithstanding Clause of the Charter in order to pass back to work legislation.

So it may seem like a trivial difference, but it's really not. Using the Notwithstanding Clause is a big deal and, as Doug Ford and friends found out, it can backfire. As mentioned in my previous post, the Federal Government (whether Liberal, Conservative, majority or minority) has never used the Notwithstanding Clause. It's not impossible, but I'd be absolutely shocked if a minority Liberal Government supported by the NDP decided to invoke the Notwithstanding Clause for the first time in history by the Federal Government for return to work legislation for WestJet Pilots.

It doesn't mean they can't get involved some other way, be it delays or additional steps prior to striking, but a full "return to work" too bad, so sad would be tough to do.

[TFTMB heavy]

They might be forced into arbitration, the government could get involved that way. I too would be surprised if they took away their right to strike.

[flyingcanuck]

Huh?? Then how did air canada pilots get forced back to work 10 years ago?

This was from 2011, not pilots, but the Fed's still did their thing

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/air-cana ... n%20loomed.

In 2015, the Supreme Court ruled that the right to strike in Canada is a constitutional right in the decision Saskatchewan Federation of Labour v. Saskatchewan, 2015 SCC 4 (CanLII), [2015] 1 SCR 245, https://canlii.ca/t/gg40r

What that means is that now if a Government is going to impose back to work legislation that will basically deprive unionized employees with their constitutional right to strike, they need to invoke the "Notwithstanding Clause" in the Charter. This means that the Government KNOWS its passing legislation that violates the charter, but in spite of it being unconstitutional (definition of notwithstanding), they're doing it anyways.

Back in 2011, the right to strike hadn't been considered a constitutional right. Although Governments were generally very hesitant to get involved labour disputes, they were not required to enact the Notwithstanding Clause of the Charter in order to pass back to work legislation.

So it may seem like a trivial difference, but it's really not. Using the Notwithstanding Clause is a big deal and, as Doug Ford and friends found out, it can backfire. As mentioned in my previous post, the Federal Government (whether Liberal, Conservative, majority or minority) has never used the Notwithstanding Clause. It's not impossible, but I'd be absolutely shocked if a minority Liberal Government supported by the NDP decided to invoke the Notwithstanding Clause for the first time in history by the Federal Government for return to work legislation for WestJet Pilots.

It doesn't mean they can't get involved some other way, be it delays or additional steps prior to striking, but a full "return to work" too bad, so sad would be tough to do.

If they did this I hope it would have the same effec as it did for the health care works, that we all ralley behind them. Every Union and pilot group. It's the only way to stop them from doing this.

[elite]

To state the obvious, in case of a strike by WestJet pilots, Sunwing, not to mention Encore will continue flying in accordance with their contracts and carry the load, which would be quite ironic given the bargaining capital WestJet MEC has put in negotiating for Encore!!

[Maskless1]

I am at encore and WILL NOT be crossing the picket line. One airline, one group of pilots. Same uniform, same guests, same colour paint. We all need a good deal.

[ant_321]

To state the obvious, in case of a strike by WestJet pilots, Sunwing, not to mention Encore will continue flying in accordance with their contracts and carry the load, which would be quite ironic given the bargaining capital WestJet MEC has put in negotiating for Encore!!

Even if that were the case SWG will only have about 10 airplanes in Canada this summer. It won’t even make a dent in the Westjet flying.

[Canadaflyer46]

To state the obvious, in case of a strike by WestJet pilots, Sunwing, not to mention Encore will continue flying in accordance with their contracts and carry the load, which would be quite ironic given the bargaining capital WestJet MEC has put in negotiating for Encore!!

You are correct. However, Encore can’t even crew their current flight schedule with their pilot exodus, so any extra regional flying handed to them during a WS strike would be optimistic to say the least. Sunwing will be deploying aircraft and crews to Europe this summer so whatever they have left in Canada will barely make a dent in any canceled WS flights.
The irony is the press releases last week about expanding their summer flying, while the CEO simultaneously states he’s planning just to park planes instead of addressing a competitive contact.

https://www.flightglobal.com/networks/e ... 41.article

[averageatbest]

I am at encore and WILL NOT be crossing the picket line. One airline, one group of pilots. Same uniform, same guests, same colour paint. We all need a good deal.

I caution you that refusing to cross the picket line could be considered illegal job action.

Booking off because you're sick is still acceptable, but your manager may call you and "reevaluate the relationship between the company and the pilot."

[Wrench]

Are you guys okay with arbitration? I've worked in unions before and arbitration has always lead to binding arbitration and that has always lead to the arbitrator picking the companies side because the union was always asking for the moon. I'm definitely not saying that this is the case with your group and your union is without a doubt stronger than any of the unions I've been apart of. Either way, I wish you all the best and I hope you get a great contract that pushes the industry in Canada forward.

[averageatbest]

Are you guys okay with arbitration? I've worked in unions before and arbitration has always lead to binding arbitration and that has always lead to the arbitrator picking the companies side because the union was always asking for the moon. I'm definitely not saying that this is the case with your group and your union is without a doubt stronger than any of the unions I've been apart of. Either way, I wish you all the best and I hope you get a great contract that pushes the industry in Canada forward.

Current contract is the child of arbitration. The company was given the ability to pay one group of pilots significantly less money to fly the exact same airplane to the exact same airports. The only difference (other than paint) is that the group being paid less are responsible for 15 more souls.

The MEC has stated that they will not go to arbitration willingly and I fully support that statement.

[sportingrifle]

Walked two pilot picket lines long ago, (one strike, one lockout), a few thoughts.
The threat of a strike is very powerful because of the effect it has in advance bookings. Usually your best deal is a few hours before the strike occurs.
The first week of a strike is ok. It is all new and exciting and you haven’t missed a pay check yet. Much past a week, the longer they go on, the less likely you will obtain what you want. The company mindset shifts from avoiding the strike, to managing the shuttering of the operation, to breaking the union.
The company loses revenue, but they also stop paying wages, fuel, landing fees, catering, etc. In Q3 many would actually come out ahead. What eats them alive is the aircraft leases. Be very afraid of striking against a company that owns their own aircraft or has a cozy relationship with their leasing companies.
If you work for an affiliated company, or the struck airline charters you, you can be made to cross a picket line and fly. You can at that point easily make them wish they hadn’t made you.
If a company offers you a job contingent on crossing a picket line, you are truly stupid to even consider it. Apart from the morality of it, aviation is a truly small world and every scab I have known has had a dismal career afterwards. Not even the management you were helping respects you.
Most strikes end up in arbitration. If the strike drags on and you don’t go to arbitration, you may be returning in bankruptcy protection. Been there, makes a strike look like a friendly bingo game. You never get back what you lost - see point 1.

It is said that companies often get the unions that they deserve and there seems to be a lot of truth in it. Best of luck to you all that have inherited greedy short sighted management. I wish you the best.

[elite]

To state the obvious, in case of a strike by WestJet pilots, Sunwing, not to mention Encore will continue flying in accordance with their contracts and carry the load, which would be quite ironic given the bargaining capital WestJet MEC has put in negotiating for Encore!!

Even if that were the case SWG will only have about 10 airplanes in Canada this summer. It won’t even make a dent in the Westjet flying.

Aren't they hiring and getting more airplanes? WestJet has a bunch of orders too. It seems Sunwing can grow its fleet, if need be; no?

[Mach1]

Aren't they hiring and getting more airplanes? WestJet has a bunch of orders too. It seems Sunwing can grow its fleet, if need be; no?

You are asking if Sunwing can grow their fleet from 10 airplanes to 130 airplanes, hire and train all the required flight crews, ground crews, dispatchers, maintenance personnel and assorted support personnel in the time it takes to settle a strike?

[averageatbest]

Aren't they hiring and getting more airplanes? WestJet has a bunch of orders too. It seems Sunwing can grow its fleet, if need be; no?

You are asking if Sunwing can grow their fleet from 10 airplanes to 130 airplanes, hire and train all the required flight crews, ground crews, dispatchers, maintenance personnel and assorted support personnel in the time it takes to settle a strike?

Section 1.4 of the WJA CBA prohibits wet leasing to cover WestJet flights except for specifically defined situations. A labour distruption at WestJet is not defined in that section and therefore would not be a legal reason to have another airline (eg. Sunwing) cover it's flying.

Encore could be forced to cover some flying, but considering they've been trying to burn the bridge with those pilots, I doubt that Encore will want to help out beyond what they're legally required to do.

[MorePower!]

You guys realize that the comments made by the CEO, however disgusting and embarrassing is just classic Union busting techniques. Nothing more, it's just business.

We are throwing our punches and they will throw theirs. Move along, a few months from now this will all be in the rear view mirror. If you choose to focus your mental energy on this.. you may need to re-think your life. Focus on your family perhaps or a new hobby.

This will continue for the rest of your career, and can eat you up. Why let it?

Cheers.

[averageatbest]

You guys realize that the comments made by the CEO, however disgusting and embarrassing is just classic Union busting techniques. Nothing more, it's just business.

We are throwing our punches and they will throw theirs. Move along, a few months from now this will all be in the rear view mirror. If you choose to focus your mental energy on this.. you may need to re-think your life. Focus on your family perhaps or a new hobby.

This will continue for the rest of your career, and can eat you up. Why let it?

Cheers.

I for one have a memory longer than three weeks. I do not trust our leadership and it's going to take a lot of good will and promises kept to change that.

[MorePower!]

You guys realize that the comments made by the CEO, however disgusting and embarrassing is just classic Union busting techniques. Nothing more, it's just business.

We are throwing our punches and they will throw theirs. Move along, a few months from now this will all be in the rear view mirror. If you choose to focus your mental energy on this.. you may need to re-think your life. Focus on your family perhaps or a new hobby.

This will continue for the rest of your career, and can eat you up. Why let it?

Cheers.

I for one have a memory longer than three weeks. I do not trust our leadership and it's going to take a lot of good will and promises kept to change that.

Trust has nothing to do with it, none of us trust the management. I just choose not to be obsessed with this.. life is good. If one wants to be consumed by this and hang on every decision and word of our leadership.. life will be hard. Thats all I'm saying.

Moving on.

[averageatbest]

Trust has nothing to do with it, none of us trust the management. I just choose not to be obsessed with this.. life is good. If one wants to be consumed by this and hang on every decision and word of our leadership.. life will be hard. Thats all I'm saying.

Moving on.

It must be nice not having to worry about what you're going to do in the near future when your job and base become redundant.

You are very obviously Calgary based and are feeling quite secure in your position.

[MorePower!]

Trust has nothing to do with it, none of us trust the management. I just choose not to be obsessed with this.. life is good. If one wants to be consumed by this and hang on every decision and word of our leadership.. life will be hard. Thats all I'm saying.

Moving on.

It must be nice not having to worry about what you're going to do in the near future when your job and base become redundant.

You are very obviously Calgary based and are feeling quite secure in your position.

Actually no, I am YYZ based. I'm just not a nut case believing the YYZ base is going to shut down or anything of that nature. That is wild crazy speculation that some guys are just lovingly clinging to to make them selves miserable.

I am not worried about the future,( and no I don't believe a word the airline says, its my own intuition) I live in the Now. Worrying and bitching will not change the outcome of anything. Business is business.. and the Airline will do what it needs to do. I will either grow with it, or leave. It's really not that difficult. Done it before, will do it again. Change is not difficult, no matter how hard most people think it is. Once you put your self in a box, ya shall remain in the box.

Your choice, be upset and scared.. or don't dwell on it.

Nothing more I can say, other than I wish you well. Life is good.

[averageatbest]

Actually no, I am YYZ based. I'm just not a nut case believing the YYZ base is going to shut down or anything of that nature. That is wild crazy speculation that some guys are just lovingly clinging to to make them selves miserable.

I am not worried about the future,( and no I don't believe a word the airline says, its my own intuition) I live in the Now. Worrying and bitching will not change the outcome of anything. Business is business.. and the Airline will do what it needs to do. I will either grow with it, or leave. It's really not that difficult. Done it before, will do it again. Change is not difficult, no matter how hard most people think it is. Once you put your self in a box, ya shall remain in the box.

Your choice, be upset and scared.. or don't dwell on it.

Nothing more I can say, other than I wish you well. Life is good.

My base is closing and I will have the option to move half way across the country or give up my seniority and go to another airline.

If you are willing to accept that your management *probably* won't mess with you, you are putting a lot to chance.

[MorePower!]

Actually no, I am YYZ based. I'm just not a nut case believing the YYZ base is going to shut down or anything of that nature. That is wild crazy speculation that some guys are just lovingly clinging to to make them selves miserable.

I am not worried about the future,( and no I don't believe a word the airline says, its my own intuition) I live in the Now. Worrying and bitching will not change the outcome of anything. Business is business.. and the Airline will do what it needs to do. I will either grow with it, or leave. It's really not that difficult. Done it before, will do it again. Change is not difficult, no matter how hard most people think it is. Once you put your self in a box, ya shall remain in the box.

Your choice, be upset and scared.. or don't dwell on it.

Nothing more I can say, other than I wish you well. Life is good.

My base is closing and I will have the option to move half way across the country or give up my seniority and go to another airline.

If you are willing to accept that your management *probably* won't mess with you, you are putting a lot to chance.

Here is the thing, they aren't messing with "me". They are running a business. Shit happens. Nothing we can do to stop them. I understand they are closing the encore base. I feel for those affected. But that is life, no amount of worry or complaining or lobbying will change the decisions of management. They are running a business. And we are just pawns. If you don't want to be a pawn, start your own business.

I don't want to be insensitive, change can be hard.. but it could also bring alot more opportunity. It's all about the attitude you choose to take.