Line-up With Runway Edge

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pelmet
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Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by pelmet »

I remember AC did the same thing in Las Vegas a few years back.

C-GWCN, a WestJet Airlines Inc. Boeing 737-700, was operating as flight WJA1447 from Harry
Reid Intl. Airport (KLAS), Las Vegas, Nevada to Edmonton Intl. Airport (CYEG), AB, with 5 crew
and 109 passenger on board. During the night take-off on Runway 01R, the aircraft struck 6
runway edge lights along the right side of the runway. The flight crew were unaware of the
collisions and continued to destination and landed without issue. 7 days after the occurrence, the
KLAS airport authority notified WestJet of the damage to the runway edge lights and in turn,
WestJet notified the TSB.

The day after the occurrence, company maintenance noticed minor damage to both nose wheel
tires and replaced both tires. There was no other damage to the aircraft noted.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by Airbrake »

pelmet wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:19 am I remember AC did the same thing in Las Vegas a few years back.

C-GWCN, a WestJet Airlines Inc. Boeing 737-700, was operating as flight WJA1447 from Harry
Reid Intl. Airport (KLAS), Las Vegas, Nevada to Edmonton Intl. Airport (CYEG), AB, with 5 crew
and 109 passenger on board. During the night take-off on Runway 01R, the aircraft struck 6
runway edge lights along the right side of the runway. The flight crew were unaware of the
collisions and continued to destination and landed without issue. 7 days after the occurrence, the
KLAS airport authority notified WestJet of the damage to the runway edge lights and in turn,
WestJet notified the TSB.

The day after the occurrence, company maintenance noticed minor damage to both nose wheel
tires and replaced both tires. There was no other damage to the aircraft noted.
When did this occur? I heard of a similar one years ago.
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BTD
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by BTD »

Go to https://skybrary.aero/ and check out the accident report browser. This happens all the time around the world.

SOP at my airline is in Rvop or Lvop to confirm the runway by visual or other means (loc) when lining up. I do it all the time regardless of vis with reference to the numbers. Make sure it is the right runway, and that I’m in the middle.

I’ve read too many of those reports and I’m not better than making that mistake. Hopefully I can mitigate it.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by co-joe »

I don't understand how you can hit runway edge lights with the nosegear. So were they completely off the runway?
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by BTD »

co-joe wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 1:35 pm I don't understand how you can hit runway edge lights with the nosegear. So were they completely off the runway?
It is often the case that the crew lines up with the edge lights thinking they are the centreline lights. Especially if low vis. If the entrance to the runway is large and perhaps has two entry lines like 06L/24R in YYZ, the wheels won’t leave the pavement for the first few hundreds of feet.

Id have to double check but I believe it often happens when the runway isn’t equipped with centreline lighting or it is turned off and the crew mistakes the edge lights for the centre.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by CpnCrunch »

pelmet wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 8:19 am I remember AC did the same thing in Las Vegas a few years back.
http://www.tsb-bst.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r ... f0014.html
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by BTD »

In addition runway 1R has pavement outside the runway bounds so it is likely the mains remained on pavement the entire time.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by 200Above »

I remember reading the Airport briefing regarding lining up on the edge lighting versus the center line.

After seeing it for myself on either 1R or 1L, I know it can easily happen. Either way, gotta be careful.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by pelmet »

When lining up, one can remind themself at the big airports that there are three rows of lights and line up with the central one. I do that. Taxiway centerlines typically go with a gentle turn onto the runway centerline. An abrupt angle change because the paintline does not continue onto the runway should be regarded with suspicion.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by co-joe »

That's all pretty eye opening, I would assume that weather had to be a factor, but the AC one in 2006 was in VMC. Having flown out of LAS many times myself last year it's good food for thought. It's also a testament to the strength of nosegear, or the design of runway edge lights. They look like a piece of 2" pipe sticking out of solid concrete, but they must have some kind of break away design.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by CpnCrunch »

This one was vmc as well.10sm the whole day.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by Eric Janson »

pelmet wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:37 pm When lining up, one can remind themself at the big airports that there are three rows of lights and line up with the central one. I do that. Taxiway centerlines typically go with a gentle turn onto the runway centerline. An abrupt angle change because the paintline does not continue onto the runway should be regarded with suspicion.
Plenty of big airports without centreline lighting. I've also seen numerous cases where centreline lighting was U/S for various reasons.

On the airbus when a runway is selected the ILS for that runway is automatically tuned. Selecting this with the LS pushbutton is a simple way of determining if you are on the centreline or not. This is normal SOP is Lovis conditions.
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pelmet
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by pelmet »

Eric Janson wrote: Sat Mar 04, 2023 11:43 pm
pelmet wrote: Thu Mar 02, 2023 9:37 pm When lining up, one can remind themself at the big airports that there are three rows of lights and line up with the central one. I do that. Taxiway centerlines typically go with a gentle turn onto the runway centerline. An abrupt angle change because the paintline does not continue onto the runway should be regarded with suspicion.
Plenty of big airports without centreline lighting. I've also seen numerous cases where centreline lighting was U/S for various reasons.
True. But if you are looking for three sets of white lines and discover only two, it will be obvious very quickly and no issue as you adjust to line up between them, with assistance from paint marks, wherever possible. If you are not looking for the middle of three white lines……..as we have seen several times, you can have an incident.

I have only read about these runway edge incidents when centerline lighting was illuminated. Bottom line, if you think about the issue momentarily while lining up, there shouldn’t be an issue. Rushing probably increases the likelihood of an error.

Pilots rarely use the localizer for assistance in good weather at night, so visual cues, aside from lighting, should be cross-checked. Much of the time, proper positioning can be confirmed with the runway numbers which should be right in front of you.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by Little Star »

This had happened before. Pilots forget to check if they are lined up with the runway's centre line they intend to take off from. Looked at what happened to SQ006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore ... Flight_006
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by pelmet »

Little Star wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:06 am This had happened before. Pilots forget to check if they are lined up with the runway's centre line they intend to take off from. Looked at what happened to SQ006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore ... Flight_006
They attempted a takeoff from a totally separate strip of pavement, so quite different.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by inthomerker »

By the tone and surprise in a few of these comments it appears likely there's a gap in recognizing US runway marking, lighting, and construction requirements within the AC150 series at the FAA are uniquely different than the requirement set forth in TP312. Big topics of difference include:
- the runway side markings are continuous and transect taxiways and other runways in the US,
- taxiway centerline markings don't necessarily take you all the way to the runway centerline in the US,
- the runway shoulders (paved surface outside the edge lights) in the US are often up to 75' wide (some are even painted dark green making them even more challenging to discern in low vis conditions) whereas all the ones here I can think of are no more than 10', and
- the runway status light system (RWSL's installed on taxiway A and D entrances to 01R at KLAS) resemble taxiway centerline lights (which in Canada take us to the runway centerline) but terminate at the runway edge markings.

Add the massive amount of asphalt that's around runway entrances in the US (due to the shoulders of the runways and taxiways), a displaced threshold (i.e., without the piano keys to show the actual runway width), and an FAA ATC that often tries to rush you (personal opinion that is), and I can see the WJA crew didn't notice their lateral position was off before punching the power.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by Little Star »

pelmet wrote: Tue Mar 07, 2023 10:10 am
Little Star wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:06 am This had happened before. Pilots forget to check if they are lined up with the runway's centre line they intend to take off from. Looked at what happened to SQ006.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore ... Flight_006
They attempted a takeoff from a totally separate strip of pavement, so quite different.
The SQ6 crew did not check the PVD. Would the Westjet 737 equipped with PVD?
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by Eric Janson »

pelmet wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:34 am Pilots rarely use the localizer for assistance in good weather at night, so visual cues, aside from lighting, should be cross-checked. Much of the time, proper positioning can be confirmed with the runway numbers which should be right in front of you.
Depending on the aircraft and operation - intersection take-offs may be quite common.

This also makes runway identification a bit harder.

At one airport there have been multiple cases of take-offs commenced from taxiways - by aircraft and crews based at the airport in question. The fact that both the markings and lighting are completely different didn't stop the crews.

At my Airline - runway identification is a mandatory item and is on the checklist. We are always operating out of new and unfamiliar airports.
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Re: Line-up With Runway Edge

Post by pelmet »

Eric Janson wrote: Sat Mar 11, 2023 5:14 am
pelmet wrote: Sun Mar 05, 2023 4:34 am Pilots rarely use the localizer for assistance in good weather at night, so visual cues, aside from lighting, should be cross-checked. Much of the time, proper positioning can be confirmed with the runway numbers which should be right in front of you.
Depending on the aircraft and operation - intersection take-offs may be quite common.

This also makes runway identification a bit harder.

At one airport there have been multiple cases of take-offs commenced from taxiways - by aircraft and crews based at the airport in question. The fact that both the markings and lighting are completely different didn't stop the crews.
You are definitely correct that intersection takeoffs negate the ability to use threshold markings for runway identification but there are runway signs at each intersection. Most airlines require a visual confirmation that they are on the runway and frequently, that is looking at the hold short sign. And once again, look for the lights at night briefly as you line up. Three white rows means use the middle one, two white rows means no centerline lights.

Pilots taking off at night on taxiways are once again not checking their runway lights. One should check the colour as well and never takeoff with blue edge lights. Daytime is white line for runway not yellow centerline. Simply thinking momentarily about this while lining up should allow quick confirmation or questioning as to whether things are proper.
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