Recruiting Video

[kiaszceski]

Did the company finally pay the $850 lump sum from February and march?

No. Only January so far and it was several days late. They have yet to send pay stubs out for it and it's been a week now.

What if someone leaves in 3 days? Will they be paid for feb and march or there’s a trick to not pay those folks in the MOA?

[averageatbest]

Did the company finally pay the $850 lump sum from February and march?

No. Only January so far and it was several days late. They have yet to send pay stubs out for it and it's been a week now.

What if someone leaves in 3 days? Will they be paid for feb and march or there’s a trick to not pay those folks in the MOA?

They need to be active for one day in the scheduling period. I'm sure the company will consider that to be "on the line, flying," but in reality all that means is that they need to have something, even a GDO, on their schedule.

That's right, if you're going to quit for an April 1 ground school, you're better off putting notice in for April 2 and calling in sick if needed on the first.

[Mostly Harmless]

Well Cloak,

I am sorry that you feel offended that WestJet pilots are no longer content to be the lowest paid 737 pilots in North America, possibly the entire globe. I am sure that the wages of Canadian pilots are going to increasing will causes you deep personal distress and harm. I know this doesn't align with the company's goals or culture at this time but market forces will force the matter regardless of opinion.

I am certain you will survive.

[cloak]

Oh boy! Either simply SDs from other airlines trying to rile up others for their own ends, overzealous (Encore?) pilots who are possibly well-meaning and mostly harmless, still lack perception of the comments or the literary arsenal to adequately articulate their point without being abrasive, or those who offer lots in terms of quantity, yet are average at best in quality! None help the situation. Diplomacy does.

Regardless, those who perceive, understand that there is little disagreement as to what is lacking or needs to be achieved for WestJet pilots, only that the method is not conducive to building consensus. One possible solution might be the involvement of more very senior pilots in negotiations, those who love the company and know its potential and garner great respect from all, to build consensus and move things forward. That will benefit all, veterans, newcomers, the vocal minority, the silent majority, the aspiring Encorians, even those who simply joined to fly jets!!

[Hangry]

One possible solution might be the involvement of more very senior pilots in negotiations, those who love the company and know its potential and garner great respect from all, to build consensus and move things forward.

Oh boy. I don’t have a dog in this fight but even as an outside observer I can tell you’ve completely lost the plot.

Glory days are done for you. Time to sit down. Nothing to be ashamed of.

[lostaviator]

I love the "the senior guys aren't part of the negotiations" and "the senior guys are left out". Every time I hear that I ask "did you raise your hand to join the committee?" I am still waiting to get a "yes, I volunteered" to that question.

The old guard was in power for many years. A lot of people in that group find themselves working past 65 because they can't reture. So. Tell me again about how good we used to have it and how great espp and profit share was?

[Biff]

One possible solution might be the involvement of more very senior pilots in negotiations, those who love the company and know its potential and garner great respect from all, to build consensus and move things forward. That will benefit all, veterans, newcomers, the vocal minority, the silent majority, the aspiring Encorians, even those who simply joined to fly jets!!

WOW. Any credibility that cloak was hanging on to just disappeared. I guess he doesn’t recognize why we unionized in the first place. Probably time to retire “cloak” and stick to your other handles.

[Mostly Harmless]

I gave you a bit of a gentle ribbing there Cloak, no need to go all Will Smith.

I don't know how to break this to you but, it requires at least 2 to have a relationship. The pilots (union) tried that and the company made it very clear that they were not interested in a relationship. They continue to make it abundantly clear that they don't want a relationship. So, since you brought up the term relationship, I'll used that metaphor to ask you a question I would really like to hear your perspective on.

When you are in an abusive relationship with a partner who is all take and no give, what are you supposed to do? Because your only answer so far is, to work harder at pleasing the person who is beating you every day hoping that if you just try hard enough they will stop the beatings and be nice to you.

I am serious, I think you'll survive if we get a raise.

[Mostly Harmless]

P. S. If you truly believe this is the case, that it is a small number of pilots in the company who are willing and ready to strike, you are going to be in for a very large surprise.

Oh boy! Either simply SDs from other airlines trying to rile up others for their own ends, overzealous (Encore?) pilots who are possibly well-meaning and mostly harmless,

[averageatbest]

Oh boy! Either simply SDs from other airlines trying to rile up others for their own ends, overzealous (Encore?) pilots who are possibly well-meaning and mostly harmless, still lack perception of the comments or the literary arsenal to adequately articulate their point without being abrasive, or those who offer lots in terms of quantity, yet are average at best in quality! None help the situation. Diplomacy does.

Regardless, those who perceive, understand that there is little disagreement as to what is lacking or needs to be achieved for WestJet pilots, only that the method is not conducive to building consensus. One possible solution might be the involvement of more very senior pilots in negotiations, those who love the company and know its potential and garner great respect from all, to build consensus and move things forward. That will benefit all, veterans, newcomers, the vocal minority, the silent majority, the aspiring Encorians, even those who simply joined to fly jets!!

Still out of touch with the current state of affairs at the WestJet group.

[cloak]

LOL, it must be a pretty balanced message if the messenger is thought to be senior, junior, outsider, and a manager all at the same time! At any rate, senior or junior, it's not the messenger, rather the message that counts. And the message is this: diplomacy is needed to build consensus, coming from "partners" seeking meaningful improvements in accordance with market forces. That will resonate with other partners. Antagonism and silly videos don't. And strikes may seem exciting, but they will cause lasting damages to finances and relationships, not to be taken lightly. Word to the wise.

[lostaviator]

LOL, it must be a pretty balanced message if the messenger is thought to be senior, junior, outsider, and a manager all at the same time! At any rate, senior or junior, it's not the messenger, rather the message that counts. And the message is this: diplomacy is needed to build consensus, coming from "partners" seeking meaningful improvements in accordance with market forces. That will resonate with other partners. Antagonism and silly videos don't. And strikes may seem exciting, but they will cause lasting damages to finances and relationships, not to be taken lightly. Word to the wise.

Ok guys. Now I’m scared. Ha!

Work action / strikes have existed since well before Westjets time. If anyone is damaging the relationship around this place, look to the other side of the table. They still refuse to accept their company has been unionized and until they learn to respect the relationship, we are going to continue on this path.

[averageatbest]

LOL, it must be a pretty balanced message if the messenger is thought to be senior, junior, outsider, and a manager all at the same time! At any rate, senior or junior, it's not the messenger, rather the message that counts. And the message is this: diplomacy is needed to build consensus, coming from "partners" seeking meaningful improvements in accordance with market forces. That will resonate with other partners. Antagonism and silly videos don't. And strikes may seem exciting, but they will cause lasting damages to finances and relationships, not to be taken lightly. Word to the wise.

You still haven't answered my question.

Since I am unaware of who you are but have seen that you were accused of no longer being a WestJet pilot, I will ask, are you currently a pilot in the WestJet group of companies?

[Canadaflyer46]

This thread has turned surreal.
There’s a reason WJ has TEN TIMES as many active grievances per pilot than Air Canada. It’s a relationship of one-sided abuse and contempt that may very well end up in a strike/lockout which could be the final nail in WJ’s coffin. It has been a long time coming.
The idea of some ‘senior pilots’ who ‘love the company’ being able to change this is preposterous. I’ve always enjoyed and respected Cloak’s posts and learned a lot from the analytical responses. Now I’m questioning motives.

[cdnavater]

LOL, it must be a pretty balanced message if the messenger is thought to be senior, junior, outsider, and a manager all at the same time! At any rate, senior or junior, it's not the messenger, rather the message that counts. And the message is this: diplomacy is needed to build consensus, coming from "partners" seeking meaningful improvements in accordance with market forces. That will resonate with other partners. Antagonism and silly videos don't. And strikes may seem exciting, but they will cause lasting damages to finances and relationships, not to be taken lightly. Word to the wise.

Cloak,
Outsider here, have you heard the saying, “the company gets the union they deserve”?
This is what’s happening here, unions don’t just happen, if WJ was working with the group you’d still have the same relationship you had 10 years ago. It’s not because WJ hired a bunch of Jazz pilots.
From what I’ve heard from insiders and what’s available publicly, I’d be voting yes to a strike too! I don’t think anybody takes a strike vote lightly, people strike to send a message, we are sick of watching upper management squeeze us for more and then rewarding themselves with the spoils.
Unless WJ come back to the table in a meaningful way, you will be striking!( or Lockout)!
Good luck WJ pilots

[Mostly Harmless]

Cloak won't answer questions because if he did, he might have to examine his position a little more deeply and that might lead him to question his belief system. He'll never address the question we all have for him; How do you have a relationship with a partner that doesn't want a relationship with you? It's all just rhetoric at this point.

WJ had an incentive based pay structure. Stocks (with capital gains), stock options (with capital gains), profit share and overtime for all. I say Had because all the incentives have been removed. There are no stocks and with that no stock options, so the capital gains are gone. There is no profit to share and never will be again as they are playing accounting games to redistribute the numbers within the Onex group. And as we shrink our way to greatness, cancel flights, use reserve, etc, the overtime is drawing to a close... and admittedly, people are tired after having their assets sweated for the better part of a decade now. The company has done a great job of insidiously chipping away at compensation. However, the bill has come due.

This is your airline:


This is your airline on strike:

[cloak]

Those at WestJet already know that the original compensation model, which was very creative and very impressive, no longer works as completely as before the buy-out and needs to be improved. That's not in question. What's in question is the benefit of this video made by MEC, if any, towards that goal. Seemingly it didn't help negotiations (surprising that ALPA endorsed it) and high emotions here are indicative that it too was driven by emotions which are not helpful in negotiations. Time will tell.

[averageatbest]

Those at WestJet already know that the original compensation model, which was very creative and very impressive, no longer works as completely as before the buy-out and needs to be improved. That's not in question. What's in question is the benefit of this video made by MEC, if any, towards that goal. Seemingly it didn't help negotiations (surprising that ALPA endorsed it) and high emotions here are indicative that it too was driven by emotions which are not helpful in negotiations. Time will tell.

It didn't help? Remember when I said that you are out of touch?

At the bare minimum the video told the pilots that they are not alone in their feelings. It showed the pilot group that the union understands what they are experiencing and are actively working on fixing it.

[cloak]

I never claimed to have the pulse of the entire pilot group, many others seem to do that! The majority is not always right though, remember that!

[sarg]

I never claimed to have the pulse of the entire pilot group, many others seem to do that! The majority is not always right though, remember that!

The majority might not make the best choice, but you do seem to have a desire that favours the management side.

You've made many arguments on the cost and revenue at WestJet and how the company can't afford to pay the pilots more. Air Transat's pay for the 321 is 16-26% higher than the current WestJet rate, they also don't have the revenue advantage (business class) that AC does, which was 1 of you arguments on way WJ couldn't pay more, yet they found a way give raises.

If the company can afford millions to attract executives at global rates they can find the money to pay pilots at a North American rate, maybe doing with 1 less EVP.

[averageatbest]

I never claimed to have the pulse of the entire pilot group, many others seem to do that! The majority is not always right though, remember that!

"Everybody is wrong but me."

Either that means that you are Galileo or that you are the fringe.

Galileo was imprisoned for his beliefs.

[cloak]

The majority might not make the best choice, but you do seem to have a desire that favours the management side.

You've made many arguments on the cost and revenue at WestJet and how the company can't afford to pay the pilots more. Air Transat's pay for the 321 is 16-26% higher than the current WestJet rate, they also don't have the revenue advantage (business class) that AC does, which was 1 of you arguments on way WJ couldn't pay more, yet they found a way give raises.

If the company can afford millions to attract executives at global rates they can find the money to pay pilots at a North American rate, maybe doing with 1 less EVP.

I try to be pragmatic. I believe there is some consolidation in management. And remember Transat is hardly the paradigm of longevity to follow. They have firmly placed themselves out of the market in which they operate. Fortunately for them, the 321 neo is very efficient and have the Quebec factor, without which as a standalone airline, Transat would have been bankrupt long ago. It's much like Canadian, good product with woefully bad economics. In contrast WestJet has always been very disciplined in dropping unprofitable routes and ventures. And, indeed WestJet does not currently have the revenue stream to offer AC wages, but it can be creative again. This is where good negotiations can bear fruits, not public forums!

[Canadaflyer46]

The majority might not make the best choice, but you do seem to have a desire that favours the management side.

You've made many arguments on the cost and revenue at WestJet and how the company can't afford to pay the pilots more. Air Transat's pay for the 321 is 16-26% higher than the current WestJet rate, they also don't have the revenue advantage (business class) that AC does, which was 1 of you arguments on way WJ couldn't pay more, yet they found a way give raises.

If the company can afford millions to attract executives at global rates they can find the money to pay pilots at a North American rate, maybe doing with 1 less EVP.

I try to be pragmatic. I believe there is some consolidation in management. And remember Transat is hardly the paradigm of longevity to follow. They have firmly placed themselves out of the market in which they operate. Fortunately for them, the 321 neo is very efficient and have the Quebec factor, without which as a standalone airline, Transat would have been bankrupt long ago. It's much like Canadian, good product with woefully bad economics. In contrast WestJet has always been very disciplined in dropping unprofitable routes and ventures. And, indeed WestJet does not currently have the revenue stream to offer AC wages, but it can be creative again. This is where good negotiations can bear fruits, not public forums!

100% agreed with you there! They will be paying significantly more than current AC wages to keep WJ running under a new CA.
AC will no doubt leapfrog us in their next CA but that’s neither here nor there right now.

[Last Flight Out]

First time seeing the video. GREAT !!!! Well done …
Pretty much any Pilot group in Canada could use it !!
Good luck with your upcoming negotiations, raising the bar anywhere is good for everyone in the business.
Stay strong and united. Cheers

[Red1]

The reality is that pilot costs are a very small percentage of overall operating cost, and will never make or break an airline regardless of how much management might claim otherwise. However, bad management decisions, continually fighting with your employees, and neglecting the customer will bankrupt your company faster than you blink.