Porter Airlines: First Officer - Dash 8

[C-GGGQ]

Man.. your logic and bias is so flawed. Let me explain.

1. You are comparing a senior porter to a junior OTS FO at WJ mainline.

2. You are comparing the poters FULL pay check to the WJ mainline pilots pay stub AFTER deductions (which is probably 30 %) which that money is put into a investment and cash match system. It's not lost, its actually atleast doubling, but it doesnt get reflected on the pay stub.

3. Wj Pay is broken down to two pay stubs a HIGH pay stub (includes OT, premium, DH pay, MOA pay increaes, among other pay increases). And A LOW pay stub ( which is JUST base salary with WSP deductions).

If you saw how much those WJ pilots were making behind the scenes in WSP investments, along with if you could see their HIGH pay stub. You would immediately retract your statements. WJ mainline pilots like to make their situation seem worse tben it is.

Again comparing their wage to the Industry standard, it's a total joke they make peanuts... but comparing porter FO payscale to WJ mainline pay scales is actually laughable and you should really get that idea out of your head cause it's totally wrong. And again. WJ mainline pay will be COMPLETELY overhauled in afew months, while porters stays the same

I am comparing year 1 pay to year 1 pay. I am comparing both after deductions. As for their pay being overhauled in a few months? I’ll believe it when I see it.

If you spent less time on av Canada and simply look at their starting hourly wage and MMG, a 2 year old can do the math and see that WJ mainline pilots make way more starting then a porter pilot. Do abit more research my friend. Not to mention if you flow to WJ from encore they give you a ripe payment, that matches your encore captain pay ( almost) as you transition to WJ mainline fo. So it's just simply not true what your saying there . And considering Enore just got a 35 % raise, we have to expect that WJ mainline will get a minimum of that. So yes, you will believe it. Cause it's literally happening as we speak

I literally have the pay package from WJ mainline in front of me and as for 2 year old math, 1300+1700=3000 vs 1600+1600 is 3200 take home 737 mainline fo vs q400 fo.

[Tolip]

I am comparing year 1 pay to year 1 pay. I am comparing both after deductions. As for their pay being overhauled in a few months? I’ll believe it when I see it.

If you spent less time on av Canada and simply look at their starting hourly wage and MMG, a 2 year old can do the math and see that WJ mainline pilots make way more starting then a porter pilot. Do abit more research my friend. Not to mention if you flow to WJ from encore they give you a ripe payment, that matches your encore captain pay ( almost) as you transition to WJ mainline fo. So it's just simply not true what your saying there . And considering Enore just got a 35 % raise, we have to expect that WJ mainline will get a minimum of that. So yes, you will believe it. Cause it's literally happening as we speak

I literally have the pay package from WJ mainline in front of me and as for 2 year old math, 1300+1700=3000 vs 1600+1600 is 3200 take home 737 mainline fo vs q400 fo.

Again my friend. Wj mainline pay is broken down in a complicated way. You holding and comparing ONE 2 week pay stub to another is not representative of the entire payroll system... you understand that right? Look at their hourly wage times it out by the MMG, and there is your answer. Those paystubs are totally meaningless

[C-GGGQ]

I know exactly how wj pay is broken doen. Its been explained multiple times and that 1300 and 1700 is always the answer to any thread on here about “first year take home” for westjet. Easy enough. The 1600 paystub from Porter was 0 OT, just normal flying for an FO after deductions. Yes hourly its different but what goes into your account is what matters to most. The fact that its even close is disgusting. What’s more is career progression. Tons available at Porter virtually none at WJ. 12 years to captain is not progression.

[Tolip]

I know exactly how wj pay is broken doen. Its been explained multiple times and that 1300 and 1700 is always the answer to any thread on here about “first year take home” for westjet. Easy enough. The 1600 paystub from Porter was 0 OT, just normal flying for an FO after deductions. Yes hourly its different but what goes into your account is what matters to most. The fact that its even close is disgusting. What’s more is career progression. Tons available at Porter virtually none at WJ. 12 years to captain is not progression.

But that's the whole thing.. the wages aren't even close.. you either just cant see it our wont see it.. I'm not sure which it is. What is year one q hourly rate and MMG with porter?

[Canadaflyer46]

Tolip there’s some good information here you’re giving on both sides of the fence. But you lost me at ‘career progression’. WJ has the longest upgrades in North America if not the world. 11 years to hold YYZ and 15 years for YYC/YVR. Not to mention it’s around a 7 year wait to get off of reserve in YYC/YVR currently as a new FO. Things look to stagnate further as they are canceling new hire classes because it’s such a shit company to work for so no one is being hired.

[Tolip]

Tolip there’s some good information here you’re giving on both sides of the fence. But you lost me at ‘career progression’. WJ has the longest upgrades in North America if not the world. 11 years to hold YYZ and 15 years for YYC/YVR. Not to mention it’s around a 7 year wait to get off of reserve in YYC/YVR currently as a new FO. Things look to stagnate further as they are canceling new hire classes because it’s such a shit company to work for so no one is being hired.

And I 1000% agree with you there, the WJ mainline upgrade times are soooo bad. But remember this aswell, career progression with WJ is more then just westjet mainline. There is Encore, swoop, now sunwing. While I agree it's really bad at WJ mainline ( also remember that is one of the main focuses of current contract negotiations) the upgrade times at every other area of the company are as good if not better then other companies. 4 different companies, Q400, 737s, 787.. it still provides routes and metal that is vastly superior to an embraer.. that's all, I know there is lots to work on career progression wise. That new senority based reserve system with WJ mainline is totally CRAZY I dont think most people even understand how crazy that new system is. But I have to believe it will be voted away with the new contract. Because it hurts literally everyone

[8895]

Nothing says career progression like 12-15 year upgrade times and a flow agreement thats’s not being honoured.

Encore to captain upgrade is one year, its approx one year at swoop aswell. Wj mainline upgrade times are really bad (not as bad as your saying) but still very bad. That's one of the big things being worked on with the new contract. But if upgrading is what is important its extremely easy at both encore and swoop

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

[Canadaflyer46]

Tolip there’s some good information here you’re giving on both sides of the fence. But you lost me at ‘career progression’. WJ has the longest upgrades in North America if not the world. 11 years to hold YYZ and 15 years for YYC/YVR. Not to mention it’s around a 7 year wait to get off of reserve in YYC/YVR currently as a new FO. Things look to stagnate further as they are canceling new hire classes because it’s such a shit company to work for so no one is being hired.

But remember this aswell, career progression with WJ is more than just westjet mainline. There is Encore, swoop, now sunwing.

That you Alexis?

[Tolip]

Nothing says career progression like 12-15 year upgrade times and a flow agreement thats’s not being honoured.

Encore to captain upgrade is one year, its approx one year at swoop aswell. Wj mainline upgrade times are really bad (not as bad as your saying) but still very bad. That's one of the big things being worked on with the new contract. But if upgrading is what is important its extremely easy at both encore and swoop

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

[C-GGGQ]

Encore to captain upgrade is one year, its approx one year at swoop aswell. Wj mainline upgrade times are really bad (not as bad as your saying) but still very bad. That's one of the big things being worked on with the new contract. But if upgrading is what is important its extremely easy at both encore and swoop

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

Literally yearly. They just did last month. Every year their pilot reps sit down with management and adjust wages based on competitors. As of next year they will include WJ mainline in their benchmarking not just encore.

[Tolip]

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

Literally yearly. They just did last month. Every year their pilot reps sit down with management and adjust wages based on competitors. As of next year they will include WJ mainline in their benchmarking not just encore.

Then why does a starting encore FO make almost 15 K more then at porter?

[Tolip]

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

Literally yearly. They just did last month. Every year their pilot reps sit down with management and adjust wages based on competitors. As of next year they will include WJ mainline in their benchmarking not just encore.

Year one encore 40 makes just shy of 57k yearly gross salary. Tbat doesn't include perdium, or OT, or WSP contribution, or stat pay. What is the BASE wage for a year one porter FO? Tbe most recent pay scale I saw was 50 $ per hour with I think 80 mmg?

[PRM1]

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

Literally yearly. They just did last month. Every year their pilot reps sit down with management and adjust wages based on competitors. As of next year they will include WJ mainline in their benchmarking not just encore.

Year one encore 40 makes just shy of 57k yearly gross salary. Tbat doesn't include perdium, or OT, or WSP contribution, or stat pay. What is the BASE wage for a year one porter FO? Tbe most recent pay scale I saw was 50 $ per hour with I think 80 mmg?

So why are pilots leaving encore in droves if it’s so great to work there?

[Tolip]

Literally yearly. They just did last month. Every year their pilot reps sit down with management and adjust wages based on competitors. As of next year they will include WJ mainline in their benchmarking not just encore.

Year one encore 40 makes just shy of 57k yearly gross salary. Tbat doesn't include perdium, or OT, or WSP contribution, or stat pay. What is the BASE wage for a year one porter FO? Tbe most recent pay scale I saw was 50 $ per hour with I think 80 mmg?

So why are pilots leaving encore in droves if it’s so great to work there?

Because the Toronto encore base is closing and they dont want to move. The reasons for pilots leaving at WJ mainline are very different to encore

[CaptDukeNukem]

Encore to captain upgrade is one year, its approx one year at swoop aswell. Wj mainline upgrade times are really bad (not as bad as your saying) but still very bad. That's one of the big things being worked on with the new contract. But if upgrading is what is important its extremely easy at both encore and swoop

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

The FOAG committee meets regularly to address issues regarding pay, flow and QOL. Saying “never” is very ignorant of you. Pay benchmarking is run at least once a year to keep competitive pay across the board for similar aircraft operations. We don’t need to wait for negotiations, it happens on its own, constantly.

[Tolip]

Encore and swoop are both extremely irrelevant unless you’re trying to get to AC, in which case encore becomes relevant in a pilots life for a year or 2.

Swoop is the lowest paying 737 gig in the world and is a cancer that needs to die off and stop dragging wages down.

Unless you’re hellbent on living in YYC and never commuting westjet is pointless for any pilot in the industry right now. I get that seeing “all this love” for porter is triggering you to defend a turd of a company (because yes again, Porter is nowhere near perfect and it sounds like the pilot group knows it) but you can’t say that WJ is a better choice right now. Even if this expansion for porter goes downhill every pilot could go to AC and upgrade faster.

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

The FOAG committee meets regularly to address issues regarding pay, flow and QOL. Saying “never” is very ignorant of you. Pay benchmarking is run at least once a year to keep competitive pay across the board for similar aircraft operations. We don’t need to wait for negotiations, it happens on its own, constantly.

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

[CaptDukeNukem]

Why is encore irrelevant? They fly basically the exact same aircraft as porter but for better wages and are affiliated with and airline 10 times the size of porter.. not to mention again, encore has a vastly better sched. You can go off about a million different compaits about WJ. But at the end of the day WAWCON at encore is faaaaar better then at porter. As for career progression, there is much to be desired. But even still there are vastly greater routes bases and career paths for a WJ pilot VS a porter pilot. Those are just the facts. WJ is being really shitty. But like I said, contract negotiations are happening RN for WJ and swoop to fix all the issues you mentioned, and encore is in negotiations next year. When does porter start to negotiate for raises and flow to the jet and better working conditions? Oh yea... never

The FOAG committee meets regularly to address issues regarding pay, flow and QOL. Saying “never” is very ignorant of you. Pay benchmarking is run at least once a year to keep competitive pay across the board for similar aircraft operations. We don’t need to wait for negotiations, it happens on its own, constantly.

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

[Tolip]

The FOAG committee meets regularly to address issues regarding pay, flow and QOL. Saying “never” is very ignorant of you. Pay benchmarking is run at least once a year to keep competitive pay across the board for similar aircraft operations. We don’t need to wait for negotiations, it happens on its own, constantly.

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

Right on, well I hope the company treats you guys well. Cus honisly with the rate you guys pilots size is growing, plus new bases, and equipment. I really think you guys need to unionize, these "benchmarking" things and yearly FOAG committees are all well and good when you are a smaller group. But the way you guys are growing and growing, I dont forsee these systems providing a fair and equitable deal for you guys in the long term. WJ will likely be striking in a next few months, and all said and done WILL walk away with a vastly superior contract. AC will be forced to immediately match or beat it.. I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

[averageatbest]

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

Encore did not significantly increase wages. The only thing that has changed is that everyone has gone up two scales and year three is the new starting point.

The "lump sum payment" was the company's way to give us money and take deductions off said monies without having it increase the match payments.

[8895]

Can you explain what benchmarking is? Not familiar with it. I'm simply pointing out that encore has higher wages, and if what your saying is true (that they increase wages yearly) it's far to little. Because based on the latest wages I have herd from poter. Encore pilots make 10-15 k more a year as a starting FO

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

What part of “annually” or “once a year” isn’t clicking for you? WJ 737 and AC 220 scales are both included in the E2 scale benchmark, which again, is benchmarked ANNUALLY, so if either of those scales go up, so does the E2. If Porter decided to not adjust its scales in a timely enough fashion then I’m sure there would be jet pilots leaving, which would be catastrophic for them, so I doubt that happens.

It’ll be interesting to see how their dash operation holds up through this expansion though, as apparently the attrition of Q skippers to big red is quite high and the last couple upgrade classes were cancelled. Not taking the initiative of leading Q operators for pay and instead benchmarking the scales that include the poverty likes of jazz and PAL I believe (in addition to your beloved encore of course) could come back to bite them.

Amazing how AC flat pay isn’t as much of a deterrent when you’re parents are still your landlord

[Timetoflyagain]

Right on, well I hope the company treats you guys well. Cus honisly with the rate you guys pilots size is growing, plus new bases, and equipment. I really think you guys need to unionize, these "benchmarking" things and yearly FOAG committees are all well and good when you are a smaller group.

…absolutely right! Porter pilots need to unionize right away! The senior drivers are missing out on brutalizing the newly born with flat pay, best fit and letting cabin crew make more than a new FO just so the 20 yr 777 driver can golf more, and who doesn’t like seeing one ALPA group fight with another over one list, then not one list, ok, but wait, no, maybe later if the planets align. Guaranteed Flow through? ...sure, we have it in a contract but have the strength of overcooked spaghetti to enforce it, and possibly the overall worst locked in contract in Canadian aviation history. Don’t like ALPA? Unifor and CUPE will gladly bring their expertise to you just like they did for several groups, before getting turfed. B Scale…why not if you give us a bonus today..Union approved!. All the “resources” mean nothing if the MEC plays favourites, doesn’t care or is incompetent. They’re all super efficient at taking their 2% however, some to hit the casino with, others running the cash down to DC. If Flair goes under, let’s see what ALPA does when the money stream runs dry from them….sorry..you’re no longer a member..but always remember that great contract we got you back in ‘22!

It’s said a company gets the union it deserves..fair enough…but also it’s then the pilots who get the union they deserve when they don’t hold it truly accountable and fair for all members.

[Tolip]

No problem. Of course…

Basically they review at least once a year what other operators are paying pilots to fly similar aircraft based on position and type. For example, narrow body captains (220, 737, 320) and use those figures to come up with new pay scales as required. So they “benchmark” multiple companies pay rates to come up with their own. E2 captains wages went up drastically just last month because of other operators increasing narrow body captain wages significantly. Unfortunately, the turboprop wages didn’t go up that much because other operators are still paying lower wages for their drivers. But basically, if other operators increase wages, typically porter will price match or very close.

They won’t ever pay the most but they certainly will never pay the least.

I dont see poter seriously revisiting your paycsales again for a long time.

What part of “annually” or “once a year” isn’t clicking for you? WJ 737 and AC 220 scales are both included in the E2 scale benchmark, which again, is benchmarked ANNUALLY, so if either of those scales go up, so does the E2. If Porter decided to not adjust its scales in a timely enough fashion then I’m sure there would be jet pilots leaving, which would be catastrophic for them, so I doubt that happens.

It’ll be interesting to see how their dash operation holds up through this expansion though, as apparently the attrition of Q skippers to big red is quite high and the last couple upgrade classes were cancelled. Not taking the initiative of leading Q operators for pay and instead benchmarking the scales that include the poverty likes of jazz and PAL I believe (in addition to your beloved encore of course) could come back to bite them.

Amazing how AC flat pay isn’t as much of a deterrent when you’re parents are still your landlord

So if WJ gets a raise in a few months. Then poter will change their pay scalea and give a raise to their pilots next year? How close does poter have to match the new salaries? Is it just their discretion? Bit I guess we will see in a few months after WJ gets a new shiny contract and a big pay raise. My guess is porter pay scalea will not significantly change, if chage at all. At the end of the day poter has no union and no contract poter managment is not required to do anything. They will give raises as they see fit, just as they will honour senority from the Q to the emb as they see fit.

[Tolip]

Right on, well I hope the company treats you guys well. Cus honisly with the rate you guys pilots size is growing, plus new bases, and equipment. I really think you guys need to unionize, these "benchmarking" things and yearly FOAG committees are all well and good when you are a smaller group.

…absolutely right! Porter pilots need to unionize right away! The senior drivers are missing out on brutalizing the newly born with flat pay, best fit and letting cabin crew make more than a new FO just so the 20 yr 777 driver can golf more, and who doesn’t like seeing one ALPA group fight with another over one list, then not one list, ok, but wait, no, maybe later if the planets align. Guaranteed Flow through? ...sure, we have it in a contract but have the strength of overcooked spaghetti to enforce it, and possibly the overall worst locked in contract in Canadian aviation history. Don’t like ALPA? Unifor and CUPE will gladly bring their expertise to you just like they did for several groups, before getting turfed. B Scale…why not if you give us a bonus today..Union approved!. All the “resources” mean nothing if the MEC plays favourites, doesn’t care or is incompetent. They’re all super efficient at taking their 2% however, some to hit the casino with, others running the cash down to DC. If Flair goes under, let’s see what ALPA does when the money stream runs dry from them….sorry..you’re no longer a member..but always remember that great contract we got you back in ‘22!

It’s said a company gets the union it deserves..fair enough…but also it’s then the pilots who get the union they deserve when they don’t hold it truly accountable and fair for all members.

Well the way I am understanding this whole benchmark pay scales at porter is that.poter will only give a subpar match to the hard fought battles that are fought at other companies. Every raise that will come to the canadian aviation sector will only come though the blood sweat and tears of an organized union. The encore raise (our union got that for us. Flairs new contract (union). The much anticipated new WJ contract will be fought brutally by every WJ pilot on property... meanwhile then poter just copies and pastes that hard work and gives similar but lower wages for its pilots.. if not for the hard fought battlea that encore, flair, WJ, ,,AC are all fighting. Poter would never see a another "benchmark " pay adjustment.

[Timetoflyagain]

Well the way I am understanding this whole benchmark pay scales at porter is that.poter will only give a subpar match to the hard fought battles that are fought at other companies. Every raise that will come to the canadian aviation sector will only come though the blood sweat and tears of an organized union. The encore raise (our union got that for us. Flairs new contract (union). The much anticipated new WJ contract will be fought brutally by every WJ pilot on property... meanwhile then poter just copies and pastes that hard work and gives similar but lower wages for its pilots.. if not for the hard fought battlea that encore, flair, WJ, ,,AC are all fighting. Poter would never see an another "benchmark " pay adjustment.
[/quote]

…Porter is responding to the supply and demand market for pilots, comparing what everyone else is getting to stay competitive. Same thing with the fares they charge the passengers, what Ford prices a car at, what Timmies pays its workers in Fort Mc Money vs Windsor, and the price of apples in Iqaluit vs WhiteRock etc etc. My point is what unions have done and continue to do to some of their own members, to each other and if you think ALPA is to be congratulated for what it “fought” and won for you..WJE was already cancelling flights due no crews..they were leaving for greener pastures, parked over a dozen tails and management either ponied up the cash to keep and attract pilots or list the rest of the fleet for sale. ….but if it makes you feel better for your 2% then so be it.

[vanislepilot]

Don't compare Porter to Encore.

Encore treats it's pilots like shit. Sure, the current pay is more than Porter, but if you don't want to commute and you want to live in the Golden Horseshoe, Encore is not the right choice for you.

First, the last YYZ Encore hire was mid-2022.

Second, the last YYZ Encore flight is April 30, 2023.

Third, Onex has taken all that WestJet once was and sucked the life and soul out of it.

Yes, no pilot should join encore thinking they are going g to work in YYZ ( the base is closing, that is mo secret). And honestly EVERY COMPANY treats their pilots like shit, porter is NO different. They have no contract no union and no protections. Tbey are expanding at a hugely massive rate, and the pilots senority is not being respected. The pay scales on their Q is totally unacceptable. You wont have a flyable schedule for atleast to years. And as for now they dont really have any solidified flow program from the Q to the EMB. They are hiring OTS and bypassing senior Q pilots... dirty business..

Jesus you’re out of touch. You likely wont have more than a month reserve on a Porter Q, there is a 2 year fleet freeze (aside from upgrade) then its whatever you can bid. Take home you’d make more as a Porter Q FO than a Westjet FO under current payscales and deductions.