Meanwhile in 'Merica

[gswartz]

AVH (WJ) We would rather the airline be smaller than pay pilots more.

RI (AA) We will match and/or exceed Delta compensation.

[rudder]

Those type of letters only come out in Canada when times are bad as an excuse to drag down WAWCON.

Make no mistake - the dramatic WAWCON updraft in the US is entirely due to pilot supply issues. They are competing for a dwindling resource and cannot afford to have hundreds of millions of dollars in assets sit idle.

Once that dynamic hits Canada, airline employers will be facing the same choices. Some are getting out ahead of the issue, others are in complete and utter denial.

[kiaszceski]

Once that dynamic hits Canada, airline employers will be facing the same choices. Some are getting out ahead of the issue, others are in complete and utter denial.

With all due respect Rudder, who is getting ahead of the issue? Flair? Porter?

Like I said we're not "Merica, we're nice Canadians, we don't have the culture of fighting for our cause.

[averageatbest]

They are competing for a dwindling resource and cannot afford to have hundreds of millions of dollars in assets sit idle.

I believe the threat we received yesterday was that the company is going to park brand new 737MAXs and continue to pay the leases instead of pulling it's pilots out of poverty.

WestJet is trying to pinch every penny it can find. They are chronically understaffed with pilots and AMEs because, unless you wear a suit and tie and sit behind a desk in a building on Aerial Place, you are just a number that is cutting into their bottom line. The safety issues are coming as a result of this greed and incompetence.

As far as I am concerned, Onyx and their shills that are pulling all of the life out of WestJet can take their golden phalluses and place them back in the shadows.

[RippleRock]

They are competing for a dwindling resource and cannot afford to have hundreds of millions of dollars in assets sit idle.

I believe the threat we received yesterday was that the company is going to park brand new 737MAXs and continue to pay the leases instead of pulling it's pilots out of poverty.

If anyone believes that threat, I have a bridge to sell.

There is --NO WAY-- that any operation hinges it's continued existence on compensating its pilot group poorly. This is going to come down to resolve. Whomever has it will win. There is no better time, nor better opportunity than right now. Use it or lose it forever.

There is now a --100% compensation deficit-- with our southern peers. Draw a line at fair compensation or don't, and sit back down.


FWIW, I don't quite understand Westjets "hail Mary" strike threat though. US carriers work sometimes for years on leveraging a new contract, in the meanwhile biding their time "following the existing contract" to the letter. No extras. Sort of a "soft" work to rule. I don't quite get this "all or nothing right now or we'll strike "approach as it almost always ensures some form of government intervention.

Good luck once the Feds are involved.

[Taxivasion]

Wow. Bizav either going to suffer greatly or wages going through the roof.

[RippleRock]

There's a million ways a group can turn up the heat on a reluctant employer without resorting to a full blown strike.

How about all those "voluntary positions" like LITC and check pilots withdraw their interest for a short period? Line-indoc pilots alone could ramp up massive pressure if they just flew the line instead. No strike, no government intervention, and thing grind to a halt almost immediately. Any voluntary work by a union member that includes --anything other than flying the line-- undermines the collective interests of the entire body during negotiations.

I've always been amazed that there is almost no talk, and no suggestion of this.

[rudder]

Once that dynamic hits Canada, airline employers will be facing the same choices. Some are getting out ahead of the issue, others are in complete and utter denial.

With all due respect Rudder, who is getting ahead of the issue? Flair? Porter?

Like I said we're not "Merica, we're nice Canadians, we don't have the culture of fighting for our cause.

Here is the pilot dynamic in Canada - those that want to go to AC, and those that don’t. AC affects the experience level of the candidate in its entry level pay. So AC will achieve its goal of 6000 pilots by 2025, but it may not get as many experienced pilots as would otherwise have been available where year 1-4 pay (non CA) was more reasonable. That may change in the upcoming round of bargaining between ACPA and AC.

The remainder of the industry (LCC/corporate/cargo/regional/charter/etc) are scrambling to meet their own operational needs. Some have growth plans while others are simply trying to staff status quo volume of operations. All of them are facing challenges with retention/recruitment/attrition. A handful (mostly corporate) have moved aggressively to offer ‘AC’ level compensation (CA) to ensure retention of the most qualified and experienced pilots. Others have implemented significant pay scale improvements, but still find themselves falling behind each time another operator recalibrates pay. None do so out of generosity - they do so out of necessity. And this dynamic will not be static. Pilots have realized that they are all free agents and therefore will generally move to the more lucrative setting while individually factoring in issues such as QOL and job security.

There are not enough commercial pilots in Canada to staff current and projected operations. So either there will be a culling of the herd (liquidation/consolidation/contraction) when it comes to volume of flying, or there will be a de facto ‘auction’ for Pilot services with success going to the highest bidder. This is the current dynamic in the US and look what it has reaped.

We are only at the start of the changes to come. Perhaps it will take until 2025 for Canada to fully manifest but that is where things are headed. I don’t think most operators can afford to be the last to act. But you never know.

[Crewbunk]

Once that dynamic hits Canada, airline employers will be facing the same choices. Some are getting out ahead of the issue, others are in complete and utter denial.

I would suggest, we are already there. Flair and Porter (for example) are not paying competitive wages for fun. They have expensive equipment coming and need pilots to fly it.

Westjet has to make a choice. Pay pilots, or park airplanes. If their CEO thinks parking airplanes is the best choice, so be it.

Meantime, AC is enjoying the very capable talent arriving every class from Westjet.

[sstaurus]

Pilots have realized that they are all free agents and therefore will generally move to the more lucrative setting while individually factoring in issues such as QOL and job security.

Free agents? In a very limited way if that. The fact that we are all beholden to a seniority system (at the airlines anyway) is a huge reason why the pay is so shit. They know we have the shackles on...

[rudder]

Pilots have realized that they are all free agents and therefore will generally move to the more lucrative setting while individually factoring in issues such as QOL and job security.

Free agents? In a very limited way if that. The fact that we are all beholden to a seniority system (at the airlines anyway) is a huge reason why the pay is so shit. They know we have the shackles on...

You are only trapped in a seniority system where you currently work.

Look at all of the DEC opportunities now available at Part 705 operators. Also an opportunity to reset seniority (if applicable).

An experienced pilot is worth his/her weight in gold and should be compensated as such. If that is not happening at your current employer, then you have the choice to move on. It is a choice to stay.

[RoAF-Mig21]

Once that dynamic hits Canada, airline employers will be facing the same choices. Some are getting out ahead of the issue, others are in complete and utter denial.

With all due respect Rudder, who is getting ahead of the issue? Flair? Porter?

Like I said we're not "Merica, we're nice Canadians, we don't have the culture of fighting for our cause.

I agree with kiaszceski. While Porter has done a good job for the E2 pilots, I believe their pay structure for the Q400 is an insult to the profesional pilots that are on that machine, working every day to ensure the highest level of safety. I've said it before and I'll say it again:

"THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN E2 CAPTAIN AND Q400 CAPTAIN". They deserve the same pay.

[Timetoflyagain]

"THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN E2 CAPTAIN AND Q400 CAPTAIN". They deserve the same pay.
[/quote]

…I absolutely agree…as soon as you can also say an A220 captain is no different than a B777 Captain, a 737 Cap is the same as a 787 Cap and for that matter a C208 single pilot going into a reserve up north with icy wings should also be getting the best pay because frankly s/he has the highest chance of not making it home…ever. Status pay paired with the elimination of pay ladders (a year one Cap is the same as a year 15 Cap) is the only way we’ll ever get away from heavy means more $, more seats means more $ and seniority will only be good for bidding schedules, bases, types and vacations. I’m sure every union is ready and willing to sign up tomorrow….until then…

[RoAF-Mig21]

Another article:

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/money/compani ... c895&ei=11

[flyingcanuck]

600,000USD a year that is

time to convert those licenses (if only it was that easy)

[noreasterYHZ]

There's a million ways a group can turn up the heat on a reluctant employer without resorting to a full blown strike.

How about all those "voluntary positions" like LITC and check pilots withdraw their interest for a short period? Line-indoc pilots alone could ramp up massive pressure if they just flew the line instead. No strike, no government intervention, and thing grind to a halt almost immediately. Any voluntary work by a union member that includes --anything other than flying the line-- undermines the collective interests of the entire body during negotiations.

I've always been amazed that there is almost no talk, and no suggestion of this.

Ripple,

I believe the reason is that those actions would be considered "job action" and illegal until the 21 days cooling off period

ALPA has a lot of experience in these matters and I'm sure their moves are calculated. Union officials and line pilots who have been alleged to be involved in illegal job action could held responsible for any damages

[sstaurus]

Pilots have realized that they are all free agents and therefore will generally move to the more lucrative setting while individually factoring in issues such as QOL and job security.

Free agents? In a very limited way if that. The fact that we are all beholden to a seniority system (at the airlines anyway) is a huge reason why the pay is so shit. They know we have the shackles on...

You are only trapped in a seniority system where you currently work.

Look at all of the DEC opportunities now available at Part 705 operators. Also an opportunity to reset seniority (if applicable).

An experienced pilot is worth his/her weight in gold and should be compensated as such. If that is not happening at your current employer, then you have the choice to move on. It is a choice to stay.

What? Your logic makes no sense. Seniority is exactly what keeps us all attached to our current employers because it’s worth so much to us and makes it extremely undesirable to ‘just move’. Of course it is a difficult choice. Resetting seniority is not an ‘opportunity’.. it’s a consequence that airlines know full well we don’t want to do.

[JHR]

600,000USD a year that is

time to convert those licenses (if only it was that easy)

If you have decent experience it is easy enough. Conversion is easy, and getting an EB2 visa although a lengthy process, is proving successful for many applicants. If you really want it, go for it!

[flyingcanuck]

600,000USD a year that is

time to convert those licenses (if only it was that easy)

If you have decent experience it is easy enough. Conversion is easy, and getting an EB2 visa although a lengthy process, is proving successful for many applicants. If you really want it, go for it!

Don't they want like 10000 hrs

[Mr. North]

There's a million ways a group can turn up the heat on a reluctant employer without resorting to a full blown strike.
...
I've always been amazed that there is almost no talk, and no suggestion of this.

There's no talk because an airline's default position during labour action (be it big or small) is to lockout it's pilots. No airline will allow it's pilots to chisel away the bottom line and endlessly drag it's name through the mud. They will take the nuclear option every time because they know it puts an extreme amount of pressure on the membership while also forcing the government to get involved. And recent history has the government favoring the corp.

There's no room for half measures. You either strike or you don't. If you want to turn up the heat, fly the contract. No favors.

[RippleRock]

There's a million ways a group can turn up the heat on a reluctant employer without resorting to a full blown strike.
...
I've always been amazed that there is almost no talk, and no suggestion of this.

There's no talk because an airline's default position during labour action (be it big or small) is to lockout it's pilots. No airline will allow it's pilots to chisel away the bottom line and endlessly drag it's name through the mud. They will take the nuclear option every time because they know it puts an extreme amount of pressure on the membership while also forcing the government to get involved. And recent history has the government favoring the corp.

There's no room for half measures. You either strike or you don't. If you want to turn up the heat, fly the contract. No favors.

You've cherry picked a couple of comments that were loosly connected. A bit out of context.

The Corp relies on unionized volunteers. These consist of check pilots and line-indocers. These are "voluntary positions" are necessary for the operation to function. To have these individuals return to the line would freeze the operation immediately. Checkers working voluntarily undermine the entire bargaining body. Full stop.

It is not "job action" for these individuals to return to normal line flying. Its their option.

It's also the bargaining Memberships option to ignore these individuals who work in necessary "voluntary" positions. It's kinda like "ignoring" those who do "voluntary overtime" when other pilots are on the street.

Work as a single cohesive unit, or don't bother at all. There are many other examples of working entirely with a collective agreement that don't necessarily fit the description of illegal work action.

The "hail Mary" pass that is a strike needs to be avoided in this country at all costs. How has it ever worked out well for anyone? No one ever wins when an arbitrator is appointed. No one.

[CaptDukeNukem]

600,000USD a year that is

time to convert those licenses (if only it was that easy)

If you have decent experience it is easy enough. Conversion is easy, and getting an EB2 visa although a lengthy process, is proving successful for many applicants. If you really want it, go for it!

Don't they want like 10000 hrs

Nah. 6000+ with some jet PIC and approx 10 years of aviation experience and letters of recommendations from basically all the employers you ever worked for.

The EB-2 requirements are easy enough to find. It’s a lengthy process, you can even apply on your own or hire an immigration lawyer to help for about $12000 USD.

[JBI]

FWIW, I don't quite understand Westjets "hail Mary" strike threat though. US carriers work sometimes for years on leveraging a new contract, in the meanwhile biding their time "following the existing contract" to the letter. No extras. Sort of a "soft" work to rule. I don't quite get this "all or nothing right now or we'll strike "approach as it almost always ensures some form of government intervention.

Good luck once the Feds are involved.

The reason you hear of US carriers working for years on an expired contract is due to the differences between labour/labor laws in the US and Canada. In the US, it's much harder for airline workers to legally strike than it is in Canada. In the US, in order to strike, the National Labor Relations Board has to rule that the parties are at an impasse (this is actually a pretty difficult test to reach) whereas in Canada, only one party to the negotiation (the union or the employer) is required to apply to the CIRB for conciliation. After meeting with many US ALPA counterparts, I can tell you they would love to have the Canadian test verses the US requirements.

That being said, although the word "Strike" gets used the most, there really are many different types of job action available to both the union and the employer. While in certain situations a strike is by far the most effective, there are other types of job action including, but not limited to, no overtime, rolling strikes, not performing any duties not strictly within the contract etc.

Another quick note though, in the US it's not really a work to rule. There are many instances of union groups trying to force the company's hand and courts rule that its illegal job action. For example, at Spirit Airlines, without the knowledge of ALPA, a large group of pilots were posting names of pilots who picked up open time and then contacting them and suggesting that they don't pick up open time. The company got wind of this and, despite ALPA not knowing nor condoning the action, they union was still fined. So it's a very very fine line, even without a renewed contract.

[tailgunner]

Are you suggesting that the WJ 787 pilots could conceivably stand up to the company only having the CA’s do the takeoffs and landings for a period of time?
Can you imagine the uproar when the WJ CA’s all deem, that in the interest of safety and under their command authority every leg should be theirs. The operation would slowly grind to a halt as the FO’s failed to meet the CARS requirements….
Would WJ flight ops and the head shed get the message??
Work smarter NOT harder!

[TFTMB heavy]

Negotiations, when they get tough is all about courage. The company has their bottom line and rarely wavers while hoping the union does. In my opinion and past experience, at this point in the game Westjet pilots should be doing the strict minimum to not get reprimanded by management, they should vote in favour of the strike, attend assemblies and pub nights. Their MEC seems to be keeping everyone informed and needs to avoid binding arbitration, it rarely works out for unions.

It's time for Westjet pilots to stick together and not turn on the union, the company wants you to loose faith in them. The company wants you to believe that the path the union is taking you on will destroy the company, the doors will close...Hard positional bargaining is ugly and destructive. The company wants you to be afraid to get your worth.

Stick together, have courage because if you don't you will get a bum deal. With courage you will most likely avoid a strike and most likely will not be locked out. The strike or lockout are possible and that's why you need to show some courage. Without it the bum deal is yours.