ALPA Petition

[rudder]

Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?

C3 senior management made some horrendous business decisions (Royal/CanJet acquisitions then decision to commence scheduled passenger service) and then 9-11 happened. C3 filed for bankruptcy protection from creditors under CCAA but was ultimately (and quickly) liquidated.

What exactly was ALPA supposed to do?

[elite]

Thanks for your post, but I'm still staring at that elephant in the room which you ignored! If ALPA so easily walked away from over 600 C3 pilots, what's stopping them from doing it again? What kind of union is it that abandons its members when dues stop coming in?

C3 senior management made some horrendous business decisions (Royal/CanJet acquisitions then decision to commence scheduled passenger service) and then 9-11 happened. C3 filed for bankruptcy protection from creditors under CCAA but was ultimately (and quickly) liquidated.

What exactly was ALPA supposed to do?

ALPA had set-up a web site to help displaced pilots network and find jobs elsewhere. However, 2 or 3 days after the company shut-down and dues stopped, ALPA shut-down the web site!! So much for professional courtesy and brotherhood of pilots!!

[elite]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

[PostmasterGeneral]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Oh boy, if you thought an innocuous statement like that was an insult, maybe you should change your username to snowflake.

[Cavalier44]

And I guess ALPA merger policy being date of hire, I'll be curious to know what happens if and when Jazz and AC agree to a merger?

Not sure why this keeps getting brought up, except as a scare-mongering tactic by the ACPA old guard. Use some common sense. No one is seriously discussing this.

[Dash.Trash]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Oh boy, if you thought an innocuous statement like that was an insult, maybe you should change your username to snowflake.

You can say that again.

No the plan is not to insult people, it is to provide facts to quash rumours that individuals such as he continue to spread without any evidence to back them up. Now that the TA and summaries are out, here is a direct excerpt from the summary to hopefully kill this one dead:

The following are key facts about ALPA Merger Policy:
▪ ALPA Merger Policy does not require pilot seniority lists to be integrated by Date-of-Hire.
▪ The determination of whether a "merger" has occurred is made by ALPA's
Executive Council.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA is not a merger between Air Canada and Jazz
or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA does not trigger an integration of the seniority
lists of the pilots at Air Canada and Jazz or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.

[schnitzel2k3]

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Oh boy, if you thought an innocuous statement like that was an insult, maybe you should change your username to snowflake.

You can say that again.

No the plan is not to insult people, it is to provide facts to quash rumours that individuals such as he continue to spread without any evidence to back them up. Now that the TA and summaries are out, here is a direct excerpt from the summary to hopefully kill this one dead:

The following are key facts about ALPA Merger Policy:
▪ ALPA Merger Policy does not require pilot seniority lists to be integrated by Date-of-Hire.
▪ The determination of whether a "merger" has occurred is made by ALPA's
Executive Council.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA is not a merger between Air Canada and Jazz
or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA does not trigger an integration of the seniority
lists of the pilots at Air Canada and Jazz or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.

I thought this was fairly common knowledge last year that merging was not an intention of ALPA coming on board. Sure....Jazz guys would LOVE for that to happen. Not happening. How are guys still biting their nails about this? ACPA fearmongering was strong when ALPA threw their hat on the ring.

[Lt. Daniel Kaffee]

Hello Mr " i have nothing to do with these issues but I will spend hours pontificating about it"

You seem to think that everything that is wrong with the airline industry in Canada is ACPA's problem. Where's the hate for Westjet pilots and the bar-lowering that their company, the WJPA, and ALPA did to the Canadian aviation industry for the past 20 + years

How about you and your co-workers show some leadership and get industry leading contracts and fix all those problems too? And tell us what you did.

You seem to think ACPA members are paranoid about mergers and seniority mergers... when have you and your colleagues, wherever you work, been faced with a lawsuit that lasted 10 years, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal defence by disgruntled ALPA pilots??

Clearly, you have some hate on for Air Canada, Air Canada pilots, and ACPA.

Take a break from the keyboard and enjoy your life and stop complaining about something that has nothing to do with you or your life.

[Transition9er2]

...
Educate yourself before making wild and baseless claims.

So your plan is to insult people into agreeing with you Dash guy?! Good luck!!

Not insulting at all. What he’s doing is pointing out that rather than reading the literature that’s been handed out, waiting for the informational sessions to be conducted and asking these questions in a forum that will give you a legitimate response, you instead come on to a public forum and bring up the past and hold it as gospel. All while trying to sow seeds of doubt an confusion.

How about you put some effort into your fears of change and actually ask your questions in the best forum.

Your posts get you the responses you deserve. You’re trolling and it’s obvious.

Move on

[schnitzel2k3]

Hello Mr " i have nothing to do with these issues but I will spend hours pontificating about it"

You seem to think that everything that is wrong with the airline industry in Canada is ACPA's problem. Where's the hate for Westjet pilots and the bar-lowering that their company, the WJPA, and ALPA did to the Canadian aviation industry for the past 20 + years

How about you and your co-workers show some leadership and get industry leading contracts and fix all those problems too? And tell us what you did.

You seem to think ACPA members are paranoid about mergers and seniority mergers... when have you and your colleagues, wherever you work, been faced with a lawsuit that lasted 10 years, spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on legal defence by disgruntled ALPA pilots??

Clearly, you have some hate on for Air Canada, Air Canada pilots, and ACPA.

Take a break from the keyboard and enjoy your life and stop complaining about something that has nothing to do with you or your life.

Did you forget to quote me so as to hopefully not get a response?

I do not work for Westjet - nor have I ever considered working for Westjet. I am not represented by ALPA either. Their agreement (WSPG) certainly doesn't help, but you see Kaffee - they are a low cost carrier. Their service is below that of Air Canada - despite their ticket prices pretty much matching them (love the people at WS, hate the aircraft, seats and the LCC model).

So....yes this industry is heavily affected and guided by the ebb and flow of Air Canada's hiring while salaries and WAWCON are stagnant due to the absolute disservice ACPA has provided as a union representative.

This entire INDUSTRY unfortunately hinges on the decision making and growth of 1 company.

It doesn't take much pontification (how long did it take you to look up that word bud) to know how ACPA has negatively affected an entire industry with poor representation and I'm sorry to say a formerly apathetic pilot group.

It looks as though the winds of change for our industry have arrived. Hopefully run with it.

Fyi, don't hate the pilot group, I'd share a coffee and beer with y'all any day of the week. I just think the mob mentality, guided by fear from the senior flight group and capture all the flying has put you behind the 8 ball. You win, we all win. I'd love to see AC FO's make 100k plus from day 1, and Captains tickle the 300-400k club without being draft whores. I'll likely never directly benefit from that, but indirectly that gives me more negotiating capital to do my job.

You win, we all win.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Did you forget to quote me so as to hopefully not get a response?

I do not work for Westjet - nor have I ever considered working for Westjet. I am not represented by ALPA either. Their agreement (WSPG) certainly doesn't help, but you see Kaffee - they are a low cost carrier. Their service is below that of Air Canada - despite their ticket prices pretty much matching them (love the people at WS, hate the aircraft, seats and the LCC model).

So....yes this industry is heavily affected and guided by the ebb and flow of Air Canada's hiring while salaries and WAWCON are stagnant due to the absolute disservice ACPA has provided as a union representative.

This entire INDUSTRY unfortunately hinges on the decision making and growth of 1 company.

It doesn't take much pontification (how long did it take you to look up that word bud) to know how ACPA has negatively affected an entire industry with poor representation and I'm sorry to say a formerly apathetic pilot group.

It looks as though the winds of change for our industry have arrived. Hopefully run with it.

Fyi, don't hate the pilot group, I'd share a coffee and beer with y'all any day of the week. I just think the mob mentality, guided by fear from the senior flight group and capture all the flying has put you behind the 8 ball. You win, we all win. I'd love to see AC FO's make 100k plus from day 1, and Captains tickle the 300-400k club without being draft whores. I'll likely never directly benefit from that, but indirectly that gives me more negotiating capital to do my job.

You win, we all win.

Classy post and all too true.

What’s good for the goose can’t be bad for the gander…

TPC

[lownslow]

What change should one expect in term of career progression or lobbying if AC joins ALPA?
Would this help raising the wawcons?

I don’t have an answer to that but as near as I can tell the absolute worst case scenario is nothing changes.

[bobcaygeon]

What change should one expect in term of career progression or lobbying if AC joins ALPA?
Would this help raising the wawcons?

I don’t have an answer to that but as near as I can tell the absolute worst case scenario is nothing changes.

Are you sure about that? ALPA's mandate and structure gives the MEC a lot more power. Very few items such as MOU/LOU's etc need to be taken to the membership unlike ACPA's structure. You can reelect a different MEC but not undo the damage they've done.
The current AC pilot mess could still have happened with ALPA in power but you just wouldn't get to vote on it first. The cargo MOA wouldn't require a vote. The same old players will end up in power eventually.
PS you get to pay more for this service as well.

[lownslow]

What change should one expect in term of career progression or lobbying if AC joins ALPA?
Would this help raising the wawcons?

I don’t have an answer to that but as near as I can tell the absolute worst case scenario is nothing changes.

Are you sure about that? ALPA's mandate and structure gives the MEC a lot more power. Very few items such as MOU/LOU's etc need to be taken to the membership unlike ACPA's structure. You can reelect a different MEC but not undo the damage they've done.
The current AC pilot mess could still have happened with ALPA in power but you just wouldn't get to vote on it first. The cargo MOA wouldn't require a vote. The same old players will end up in power eventually.
PS you get to pay more for this service as well.

Is this a problem every other airline faces regularly?

[altiplano]

What change should one expect in term of career progression or lobbying if AC joins ALPA?
Would this help raising the wawcons?

I don’t have an answer to that but as near as I can tell the absolute worst case scenario is nothing changes.

Are you sure about that? ALPA's mandate and structure gives the MEC a lot more power. Very few items such as MOU/LOU's etc need to be taken to the membership unlike ACPA's structure. You can reelect a different MEC but not undo the damage they've done.
The current AC pilot mess could still have happened with ALPA in power but you just wouldn't get to vote on it first. The cargo MOA wouldn't require a vote. The same old players will end up in power eventually.
PS you get to pay more for this service as well.

As is the ACPA MEC holds ALL the power. No veto. No transparency. More than half your base votes to recall you and you're still untouchable.

They control all committee appointments, keep everyone in their little towers, everything flows to the MEC.

And who does the ACPA MEC have a fiduciary duty to? Not the membership, but the ACPA organization itself and it's staff. The CEO, LRD, the comms manager.

Can't get out fast enough.

[bobcaygeon]

I don’t have an answer to that but as near as I can tell the absolute worst case scenario is nothing changes.

Are you sure about that? ALPA's mandate and structure gives the MEC a lot more power. Very few items such as MOU/LOU's etc need to be taken to the membership unlike ACPA's structure. You can reelect a different MEC but not undo the damage they've done.
The current AC pilot mess could still have happened with ALPA in power but you just wouldn't get to vote on it first. The cargo MOA wouldn't require a vote. The same old players will end up in power eventually.
PS you get to pay more for this service as well.

Is this a problem every other airline faces regularly?

All depends on how organized your internal leadership is. ALPA Canada/Washington can be very lazy and not helpful to the MEC/NC unless your own agenda happens to match theirs. AC will get some help to start. They've been brutal at helping with first contracts at small airlines. Unifor's FA's come more organized to the table on initial and recurrent contracts.
They may be better than ACPA but as a member it's still a small group with special interests that don't usually benefit the junior people.

[elite]

Oh boy, if you thought an innocuous statement like that was an insult, maybe you should change your username to snowflake.

You can say that again.

No the plan is not to insult people, it is to provide facts to quash rumours that individuals such as he continue to spread without any evidence to back them up. Now that the TA and summaries are out, here is a direct excerpt from the summary to hopefully kill this one dead:

The following are key facts about ALPA Merger Policy:
▪ ALPA Merger Policy does not require pilot seniority lists to be integrated by Date-of-Hire.
▪ The determination of whether a "merger" has occurred is made by ALPA's
Executive Council.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA is not a merger between Air Canada and Jazz
or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.
• A merger between ACPA and ALPA does not trigger an integration of the seniority
lists of the pilots at Air Canada and Jazz or any other ALPA Canadian carrier.

I thought this was fairly common knowledge last year that merging was not an intention of ALPA coming on board. Sure....Jazz guys would LOVE for that to happen. Not happening. How are guys still biting their nails about this? ACPA fearmongering was strong when ALPA threw their hat on the ring.

ACPA hasn't been working well, true, however jumping into the arms of an American union is not the answer either. ALPA experiment in Canada has not been very successful. Notwithstanding Transat and its Quebec factor, WestJet and Jazz have not fared well, neither did C3. Of course, misery loves company, but hyperbole of its current proponents aside, ALPA has consistently overpromised and overcharged, and underdelivered. It has a poor track record, and it will not improve the situation for Canadian pilots to send more of their hard-earned money to Virginia! It's better to have a made in Canada solution, and who better to lead that charge than the flag carrier and then bring others onboard. No fearmongering, just facts.

[ashtray]

You can say that again.

No the plan is not to insult people, it is to provide facts to quash rumours that individuals such as he continue to spread without any evidence to back them up. Now that the TA and summaries are out, here is a direct excerpt from the summary to hopefully kill this one dead:

I thought this was fairly common knowledge last year that merging was not an intention of ALPA coming on board. Sure....Jazz guys would LOVE for that to happen. Not happening. How are guys still biting their nails about this? ACPA fearmongering was strong when ALPA threw their hat on the ring.

ACPA hasn't been working well, true, however jumping into the arms of an American union is not the answer either. ALPA experiment in Canada has not been very successful. Notwithstanding Transat and its Quebec factor, WestJet and Jazz have not fared well, neither did C3. Of course, misery loves company, but hyperbole of its current proponents aside, ALPA has consistently overpromised and overcharged, and underdelivered. It has a poor track record, and it will not improve the situation for Canadian pilots to send more of their hard-earned money to Virginia! It's better to have a made in Canada solution, and who better to lead that charge than the flag carrier and then bring others onboard. No fearmongering, just facts.

Agree 100 percent. Air Canada pilots lead the way, and the rest of the airlines in Canada will follow suit. If CALPA had not disintegrated would the organization today be looking to join ALPA? Doubtful.

[Bede]

ACPA hasn't been working well, true, however jumping into the arms of an American union is not the answer either. ALPA experiment in Canada has not been very successful. Notwithstanding Transat and its Quebec factor, WestJet and Jazz have not fared well, neither did C3. Of course, misery loves company, but hyperbole of its current proponents aside, ALPA has consistently overpromised and overcharged, and underdelivered. It has a poor track record, and it will not improve the situation for Canadian pilots to send more of their hard-earned money to Virginia! It's better to have a made in Canada solution, and who better to lead that charge than the flag carrier and then bring others onboard. No fearmongering, just facts.

That's pure nonsense. While ACPA wages have dropped over the last 20 years, WJ's have continued to increase. For example, last contract we saw a 13.6% wage increase. I'd wager that WJ also work fewer days than their counterparts at AC. (Vacation, training inside the block, etc ).

ALPA doesn't promise anything. They tell you about the resources available and it's up to the pilot groups to use them. For example, over Covid, ALPA provided monthly economic updates to pilot groups. They timed the recovery to a month. This information allowed us to make an informed decision in rejecting another concessionary MOA. With ALPA's legal assistance, we got layoff pay in addition to our encore salaries for those who bumped down. Most of us did very well.

If all the deductions on my pay, I get the most value out of my ALPA dues.

[TFTMB heavy]

There is a lot of misinformation about how ALPA works and what they can do for a pilot group. Think of it as a service provider with many specialists and departments . You have to go get those services, be informed of what is available and use it. Small airlines pilot groups could not afford the legal representation, communications or economic and financial advisors that ALPA has, impossible. Some of these small airline pilot groups get a bum deal because they lack some experience and they ultimately make the final decision, not ALPA.

It's not a perfect set up but local counsels vote on contract modifications (LOA/MOA). The general rule is that if it affects pay and working conditions it goes to a membership vote.


The orange sticker and the toll free number on it is worth every penny even if you never what to have to use it. Another service available that isn't talked bout much.


Someone made a comment about Air Transat and the Quebec factor, sure helps but half the business is out of YYZ. Shut down twice during COVID, haven't seen that Quebec money yet, just some shitty loans from the feds.

[RochVoisine]

You can say that again.

No the plan is not to insult people, it is to provide facts to quash rumours that individuals such as he continue to spread without any evidence to back them up. Now that the TA and summaries are out, here is a direct excerpt from the summary to hopefully kill this one dead:

I thought this was fairly common knowledge last year that merging was not an intention of ALPA coming on board. Sure....Jazz guys would LOVE for that to happen. Not happening. How are guys still biting their nails about this? ACPA fearmongering was strong when ALPA threw their hat on the ring.

ACPA hasn't been working well, true, however jumping into the arms of an American union is not the answer either. ALPA experiment in Canada has not been very successful. Notwithstanding Transat and its Quebec factor, WestJet and Jazz have not fared well, neither did C3. Of course, misery loves company, but hyperbole of its current proponents aside, ALPA has consistently overpromised and overcharged, and underdelivered. It has a poor track record, and it will not improve the situation for Canadian pilots to send more of their hard-earned money to Virginia! It's better to have a made in Canada solution, and who better to lead that charge than the flag carrier and then bring others onboard. No fearmongering, just facts.

This sounds just great..here is a capability with the largest & most experienced pilot union in the world commanding the highest compensation on the planet and we want to come up with our own solution

Who needs a F35 when you can have a Q400 on floats

[ashtray]

There is a lot of misinformation about how ALPA works and what they can do for a pilot group. Think of it as a service provider with many specialists and departments . You have to go get those services, be informed of what is available and use it. Small airlines pilot groups could not afford the legal representation, communications or economic and financial advisors that ALPA has, impossible. Some of these small airline pilot groups get a bum deal because they lack some experience and they ultimately make the final decision, not ALPA.

It's not a perfect set up but local counsels vote on contract modifications (LOA/MOA). The general rule is that if it affects pay and working conditions it goes to a membership vote.


The orange sticker and the toll free number on it is worth every penny even if you never what to have to use it. Another service available that isn't talked bout much.


Someone made a comment about Air Transat and the Quebec factor, sure helps but half the business is out of YYZ. Shut down twice during COVID, haven't seen that Quebec money yet, just some shitty loans from the feds.

Not implying anything bad about ALPA. My only point is if CALPA had not ceased to exist, I doubt any pilot group in Canada would have joined ALPA instead of CALPA. If Air Canada and WestJet pilots formed CALPA 2, smaller carriers (ULCCs) would be drawn in. The goal should be no matter what airline operates the B737 MAX8, a set hourly rate with similar working conditions exist. Let's make the airline pilot profession attractive again for young people considering it as a career option.

[cdnavater]

There is a lot of misinformation about how ALPA works and what they can do for a pilot group. Think of it as a service provider with many specialists and departments . You have to go get those services, be informed of what is available and use it. Small airlines pilot groups could not afford the legal representation, communications or economic and financial advisors that ALPA has, impossible. Some of these small airline pilot groups get a bum deal because they lack some experience and they ultimately make the final decision, not ALPA.

It's not a perfect set up but local counsels vote on contract modifications (LOA/MOA). The general rule is that if it affects pay and working conditions it goes to a membership vote.


The orange sticker and the toll free number on it is worth every penny even if you never what to have to use it. Another service available that isn't talked bout much.


Someone made a comment about Air Transat and the Quebec factor, sure helps but half the business is out of YYZ. Shut down twice during COVID, haven't seen that Quebec money yet, just some shitty loans from the feds.

Not implying anything bad about ALPA. My only point is if CALPA had not ceased to exist, I doubt any pilot group in Canada would have joined ALPA instead of CALPA. If Air Canada and WestJet pilots formed CALPA 2, smaller carriers (ULCCs) would be drawn in. The goal should be no matter what airline operates the B737 MAX8, a set hourly rate with similar working conditions exist. Let's make the airline pilot profession attractive again for young people considering it as a career option.

So, let me get this straight, you want all other airlines in Canada who are mostly with APLA to drop them and join a failed union from two decades ago!
Because?

[TFTMB heavy]

There is a lot of misinformation about how ALPA works and what they can do for a pilot group. Think of it as a service provider with many specialists and departments . You have to go get those services, be informed of what is available and use it. Small airlines pilot groups could not afford the legal representation, communications or economic and financial advisors that ALPA has, impossible. Some of these small airline pilot groups get a bum deal because they lack some experience and they ultimately make the final decision, not ALPA.

It's not a perfect set up but local counsels vote on contract modifications (LOA/MOA). The general rule is that if it affects pay and working conditions it goes to a membership vote.


The orange sticker and the toll free number on it is worth every penny even if you never what to have to use it. Another service available that isn't talked bout much.


Someone made a comment about Air Transat and the Quebec factor, sure helps but half the business is out of YYZ. Shut down twice during COVID, haven't seen that Quebec money yet, just some shitty loans from the feds.

Not implying anything bad about ALPA. My only point is if CALPA had not ceased to exist, I doubt any pilot group in Canada would have joined ALPA instead of CALPA. If Air Canada and WestJet pilots formed CALPA 2, smaller carriers (ULCCs) would be drawn in. The goal should be no matter what airline operates the B737 MAX8, a set hourly rate with similar working conditions exist. Let's make the airline pilot profession attractive again for young people considering it as a career option.

So, let me get this straight, you want all other airlines in Canada who are mostly with APLA to drop them and join a failed union from two decades ago!
Because?

It's been talked about in the past that ALPA Canada could be a separate entity with a services agreement with ALPA international. I would not be surprised if these talks restart once the dust settles on the ACPA integration.

[ashtray]

There is a lot of misinformation about how ALPA works and what they can do for a pilot group. Think of it as a service provider with many specialists and departments . You have to go get those services, be informed of what is available and use it. Small airlines pilot groups could not afford the legal representation, communications or economic and financial advisors that ALPA has, impossible. Some of these small airline pilot groups get a bum deal because they lack some experience and they ultimately make the final decision, not ALPA.

It's not a perfect set up but local counsels vote on contract modifications (LOA/MOA). The general rule is that if it affects pay and working conditions it goes to a membership vote.


The orange sticker and the toll free number on it is worth every penny even if you never what to have to use it. Another service available that isn't talked bout much.


Someone made a comment about Air Transat and the Quebec factor, sure helps but half the business is out of YYZ. Shut down twice during COVID, haven't seen that Quebec money yet, just some shitty loans from the feds.

Not implying anything bad about ALPA. My only point is if CALPA had not ceased to exist, I doubt any pilot group in Canada would have joined ALPA instead of CALPA. If Air Canada and WestJet pilots formed CALPA 2, smaller carriers (ULCCs) would be drawn in. The goal should be no matter what airline operates the B737 MAX8, a set hourly rate with similar working conditions exist. Let's make the airline pilot profession attractive again for young people considering it as a career option.

So, let me get this straight, you want all other airlines in Canada who are mostly with APLA to drop them and join a failed union from two decades ago!
Because?

I, personally, don't want anything. You are implying because CALPA was a 'failed' union there is no alternative other than to join ALPA. Some smaller pilots groups joining ALPA may have made sense at the time, following the CAIL/AC merger (ACPA), and with non-unionized WestJet pilots. The landscape today is much different than it was even five years ago. The reasons leading to the 'failed' union would obviously be addressed in a new constitution, along with other terms of reference that would serve the needs of Canadian pilots today and into the future. The only point I am making is had CALPA remained the airline pilots’ union in Canada, I doubt very much the union would now be part of ALPA, or seeking to join ALPA. What other national pilot unions (e.g. BALPA) are seeking to join ALPA? I am no longer in the industry. My only involvement now is with a nephew at Jazz. Just offering my thoughts.