ground schools canceled

[MKFlair]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

[fish4life]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Holy shit dude drink some more koolaid. Court ordered bailiffs don’t help seize an airplane without evidence.

[Bede]

@MKflair,
I certainly don't want flair to go under, but come-on man, a bit of critical thinking wouldn't hurt. Quoting a statement of claim (which has not been proven in court) is pretty meaningless. Pleadings are always the most one-sided version of events that you will get. It's been reported by numerous sources that flair has had to renegotiate terms for several months now. It's also pretty tough to have a court order a seizure without legitimate evidence.

I wish you guys all the best, but it may be wise to consider that your management isn't being 100% upfront with you.

[tbaylx]

When an operation loses 4 aircraft unexpectedly, I would assume most people can figure out that some planned ground schools would have to be canceled. Hiring will continue until April 3rd. After that we expect ground schools to begin again in early 2024.


Any pilot awarded and upgrades will still be given the opportunity, although there aren't really many that were qualified that hadn't already been upgraded. FO's continue to enjoy one of the best-starting pay in the industry currently, and like I previously said, even if growth under this contract remained stagnant, FO's wouldn't be affected as year 1-3 pay remains competitive. By that time we'll be into a new CBA and can address year 4 onwards.

Although growth has slowed for 2023, which will allow us to actually catch up on a few flight ops projects, Flair will continue to grow 2024 and beyond and provide career pilot jobs in the Canadian industry.

[cloak]

@MKflair,
I certainly don't want flair to go under, but come-on man, a bit of critical thinking wouldn't hurt. Quoting a statement of claim (which has not been proven in court) is pretty meaningless. Pleadings are always the most one-sided version of events that you will get. It's been reported by numerous sources that flair has had to renegotiate terms for several months now. It's also pretty tough to have a court order a seizure without legitimate evidence.

I wish you guys all the best, but it may be wise to consider that your management isn't being 100% upfront with you.

Good points, plus I would add that some of the damage control statements, and the lawsuit are meant to reassure the travelling public to continue booking Flair with confidence and prevent staff mass exodus. This goes to show that expanding into profitability is a myth that rarely comes true!

[CaptDukeNukem]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

How do you explain @thinmargins predictions from FEB 20th, 2023 that some of flair’s aircraft are going to be repossessed. If they are “prepaying” for March? how does someone in the leasing community know which tails will disappear from the operation?

Your point number 2 literally proves there was an issue with payments, regardless of whether flair discussed this with the lessor. And just because flair “communicated” that they were gonna be late with payments, it does not mean the lessor was in agreement with this principle. They also didn’t “indicate” that they were happy with delayed payments.

Security deposits don’t mean anything, it’s like damage deposits for rent. It’s just held in trust, until your landlord decides you punched one too many holes through the wall.

And this isn’t “airplane REPO”. The lessors seized the aircraft with legal authority, as stated in above posts. Also, why would RAICs be seized? If I was the crew on that flight, and someone took the logbook and C of R, (which is what happened) and told me I can’t fly this plane, I’d call dispatch and go home, and also keep my raic.

Don’t spew nonsense.

[flyinhigh]

I’m curious why four repos would cancel groundschools until 2024.

The average airline runs 6 crew per tail (12 pilots), which is only 48 pilots. For a company which is trying to recruit 20 a month, this would be a blip in the road and hiring would start again this summer.

Me thinks they finally woke up and need to slow roll the rest of the expansion as the piggy bank is depleted as airborne has proven.

[loose]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Oh please!!!! Why not be honest with your employees and tell them Flair also has been paying cash for fuel for the last few wks if not months because the vendor is sick and tired of payment issues and won’t extend credit anymore. We all sympathize and hate to see an airline struggle, it’s bad for the pilots cause industry wide but on this one the end is clear.

[MKFlair]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Holy shit dude drink some more koolaid. Court ordered bailiffs don’t help seize an airplane without evidence.

There were no court ordered bailiffs. A contract maintenance company showed up and took the aircraft.

[MKFlair]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Oh please!!!! Why not be honest with your employees and tell them Flair also has been paying cash for fuel for the last few wks if not months because the vendor is sick and tired of payment issues and won’t extend credit anymore. We all sympathize and hate to see an airline struggle, it’s bad for the pilots cause industry wide but on this one the end is clear.

Sorry, you are inaccurate. There has been no change to Flairs payment with their fuel providers.

[rudder]

No layoffs and no forced base moves. With potentially 4 less aircraft then planned for this year the hiring will slow. Anyone awarded an upgrade will continue and, if we are heavy slightly, so be it. Flair has always treated its pilot fairly and that won't change now.

The 'shrills' on here with the ongoing negative comments are in general, uninformed and working for the competition - look at their past posts and see how many work at WJ and Transat (odd, though, not many AC guys ranting and raving).

This is a bump in the road and the speculation about our finances is just that - poorly informed guesses by people who think they know the industry. If you want to be better informed take a look at the legal claim filed by Flair which interestingly notes that:

1. Payments are actually made in advance so the March payment was for the month of March. IN other words prepay.
2. Flair had delayed over the previous months but by days and had always informed and managed with the lessor. The lessor had never indicated an issue.
3. At this time Flair had also communicated and the lessor did not respond or indicate that it was unacceptable.
4. Flair was not in arrears in any other manner or over a period of time.
5. Airbourne has 3 months security deposit for each aircraft.
6. The lessor had the aircraft taken at night, on a weekend, prior to a holiday week. [RAICs have been confiscated and TC is investigating the access to aircraft was illegal].

So it is clear there was no risk to the lessor and they have clearly and obviously been motivated by other factors including influence from WJ who Airbourne works closely with. So look more deeply for the truth.

In the end, Flair is hurt but fine and still operating, will continue to grow.

Holy shit dude drink some more koolaid. Court ordered bailiffs don’t help seize an airplane without evidence.

There were no court ordered bailiffs. A contract maintenance company showed up and took the aircraft.

A contract maintenance company does not have the legal right to ‘take’(?) the aircraft. How is it the aircraft were surrendered by Flair? Anybody representing the legal right to take control of the asset would have to be in possession of the legal standing to do so. Hence, were they in possession of a court approved document giving them legal control of the aircraft? Or did they represent that the aircraft was being impounded based on a lien associated with a commercial agreement (lease) or a services agreement in default?

[Bede]

There were no court ordered bailiffs. A contract maintenance company showed up and took the aircraft.

I doubt it. TC cancelled the registrations immediately. To change a C of R you either need a bill of sale, lease contract, cancellation of a lease contract (signed by both parties) or legal documents indicating a change in custody and control. The only option would have been the last one.

[MKFlair]

Not completely accurate. MOst lease contract provide a PoA under certain conditions which is then utilized to lay the claim.

[rudder]

Not completely accurate. MOst lease contract provide a PoA under certain conditions which is then utilized to lay the claim.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... 141caab8dc

[MKFlair]

Not completely accurate. MOst lease contract provide a PoA under certain conditions which is then utilized to lay the claim.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... 141caab8dc

Hi Rudder, not sure the relevance but the lease may provide a power of attorney or similar in order to maintain the lessors rights. You can, essentially, claim and freeze an aircraft in location at which point the parties lawyers make final determinations.

[TFTMB heavy]

Not completely accurate. MOst lease contract provide a PoA under certain conditions which is then utilized to lay the claim.

https://www.lexology.com/library/detail ... 141caab8dc

Hi Rudder, not sure the relevance but the lease may provide a power of attorney or similar in order to maintain the lessors rights. You can, essentially, claim and freeze an aircraft in location at which point the parties lawyers make final determinations.

Sounds like of the aircraft were deregistered quite quickly that an application to TC for reregistration and proof of default was provided to seize those aircraft.

[Maurice]

Why did the seized aircraft thread get deleted?

[capt_Z]

When an operation loses 4 aircraft unexpectedly, I would assume most people can figure out that some planned ground schools would have to be canceled. Hiring will continue until April 3rd. After that we expect ground schools to begin again in early 2024.

Hiring till 3rd April means fresh new interviews or just wrapping up the interviews already done?

Is there a last GS for 2023 scheduled for 3rd April? Or everyone will be kept in pool untill next year?

[the_new_guy]

When an operation loses 4 aircraft unexpectedly, I would assume most people can figure out that some planned ground schools would have to be canceled. Hiring will continue until April 3rd. After that we expect ground schools to begin again in early 2024.

Hiring till 3rd April means fresh new interviews or just wrapping up the interviews already done?

Is there a last GS for 2023 scheduled for 3rd April? Or everyone will be kept in pool untill next year?

There is a ground school in April, then for obvious reasons the hiring will be put on hold for awhile till the planned growth resumes. Anyone not able to attend in April (or not selected at this time) will be in the pool so that the company can resume hiring as soon as the need is there.

At this time we're operating close to our full schedule, but having rolled in 3 tails that were planned for the summer means we don't have the planned capacity at this time for the months to come. The company is actively working on solutions to bring aircraft into the fleet and reworking the schedule to stretch the current fleet's capacity a little, but until we add more planes, there's only a certain need pilot wise that will be filled after the April groundschool.

Hope this helps.

[nohojob]

When an operation loses 4 aircraft unexpectedly, I would assume most people can figure out that some planned ground schools would have to be canceled. Hiring will continue until April 3rd. After that we expect ground schools to begin again in early 2024.


Any pilot awarded and upgrades will still be given the opportunity, although there aren't really many that were qualified that hadn't already been upgraded. FO's continue to enjoy one of the best-starting pay in the industry currently, and like I previously said, even if growth under this contract remained stagnant, FO's wouldn't be affected as year 1-3 pay remains competitive. By that time we'll be into a new CBA and can address year 4 onwards.

Although growth has slowed for 2023, which will allow us to actually catch up on a few flight ops projects, Flair will continue to grow 2024 and beyond and provide career pilot jobs in the Canadian industry.

I understand but why inviting people for an interview in April if planning to hire in 2024 ?

[the_new_guy]

When an operation loses 4 aircraft unexpectedly, I would assume most people can figure out that some planned ground schools would have to be canceled. Hiring will continue until April 3rd. After that we expect ground schools to begin again in early 2024.


Any pilot awarded and upgrades will still be given the opportunity, although there aren't really many that were qualified that hadn't already been upgraded. FO's continue to enjoy one of the best-starting pay in the industry currently, and like I previously said, even if growth under this contract remained stagnant, FO's wouldn't be affected as year 1-3 pay remains competitive. By that time we'll be into a new CBA and can address year 4 onwards.

Although growth has slowed for 2023, which will allow us to actually catch up on a few flight ops projects, Flair will continue to grow 2024 and beyond and provide career pilot jobs in the Canadian industry.

I understand but why inviting people for an interview in April if planning to hire in 2024 ?

I don't know that hiring will only resume in 2024. That is the official position the company has taken, but that being said, you have to look at how fast things are going.

Within a few months you could see movement that right now is not priority nor foreseen, and that could be a few more planes to recover parts of the original scheduled growth. Or not. I'm not saying I know it will happen, I'm merely suggesting it could.

[tbaylx]

When an operation loses 4 aircraft unexpectedly, I would assume most people can figure out that some planned ground schools would have to be canceled. Hiring will continue until April 3rd. After that we expect ground schools to begin again in early 2024.


Any pilot awarded and upgrades will still be given the opportunity, although there aren't really many that were qualified that hadn't already been upgraded. FO's continue to enjoy one of the best-starting pay in the industry currently, and like I previously said, even if growth under this contract remained stagnant, FO's wouldn't be affected as year 1-3 pay remains competitive. By that time we'll be into a new CBA and can address year 4 onwards.

Although growth has slowed for 2023, which will allow us to actually catch up on a few flight ops projects, Flair will continue to grow 2024 and beyond and provide career pilot jobs in the Canadian industry.

I understand but why inviting people for an interview in April if planning to hire in 2024 ?

The planned ground schools won't continue after April 3rd. We will likely run some ad-hoc groundschools throughout the year due to attrition or additional aircraft later in the year.

[Tbayer2021]

I’m curious why four repos would cancel groundschools until 2024.

The average airline runs 6 crew per tail (12 pilots), which is only 48 pilots. For a company which is trying to recruit 20 a month, this would be a blip in the road and hiring would start again this summer.

Me thinks they finally woke up and need to slow roll the rest of the expansion as the piggy bank is depleted as airborne has proven.

Sage advice would say to give more importance to actions over words. The company has a difficult situation to manage on multiple fronts. They're certainly not going to say anything that may trigger an exodus of pilots. Not only will this make running their schedule more difficult, it will also place further strain on their clearly stretched financial resources, by cutting revenue and increasing training cost.

So pay close attention to the reassuring words from management while at the same time they pause hiring for about a year.

Caveat emptor

[Big Pistons Forever]

The way Porter and others are hiring, I would suggest that they will be soon be very short of crews even to fly a reduced schedule. Most of the pilots must be looking for other opportunities……

In any case anyone who signs a bond at Flair now is crazy.

[the_new_guy]

The way Porter and others are hiring, I would suggest that they will be soon be very short of crews even to fly a reduced schedule. Most of the pilots must be looking for other opportunities……

In any case anyone who signs a bond at Flair now is crazy.

Love your enthusiasm, but there are no bonds at flair.