Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

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averageatbest
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by averageatbest »

Mach1 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 7:06 am
Eric Janson wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 4:34 am Is the CBA still valid in the event of a strike? Just curious - don't work for WestJet or a unionised company.
Shouldn't you be directing that question to the person quoting sections of the contract?
No, he probably recognizes that, even though I can read and have a memory, I am not a lawyer.

DART it.
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bobcaygeon
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by bobcaygeon »

The union can’t legally strike unless the contract is expired. To do so would be
If the union goes on strike the CBA ain’t worth shit.
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Oleo 4
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by Oleo 4 »

Contract is currently expired and conditions frozen until replaced by another contract - signed or arbitrated.

O
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Red1
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by Red1 »

Why would anybody actually want a full on strike.. has there ever been a good outcome for a pilot group after a strike? every single gain the American carriers have got has come at the negotiating table. Sure, they might have a strike vote, but its a lever, just like what ever the CEO says its all part of the game. Its a game, the company want to pay you less, the pilots want to be paid more. At the end of the day its in everyone's best interest to find a negotiated deal. Just remember your playing a fairly high stakes game, but its still a game.
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rudder
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by rudder »

Oleo 4 wrote: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:25 pm Contract is currently expired and conditions frozen until replaced by another contract - signed or arbitrated.

O
Close.

The employer can unilaterally implement its last offer if the cooling off period has expired. In other words - a de facto lock out.
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JBI
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by JBI »

To add to what rudder has said.

While negotiations/conciliations are ongoing, the previous contract is frozen and in force. If conciliation is not extended or is unsuccessful, after a 21 day cooling off period, EITHER party is now in a position for self help or job action.

The employees, through the union, can decide to strike or take other types of job action such as work to rule, not picking up OT, one day strikes etc. The employees don't necessarily take these actions to spite the employer, but rather to take more aggressive actions that will attempt to force the company's hand to compromise and/or agree to a more favourable contract. i.e. if Management thinks paying an employee group xx% more money will cause the company to lose money, what costs more - a strike or paying the employees more?

However, it must be noted that the employer can ALSO undertake self help. If the employees don't strike, the employer could try and force the employees to accept a contract that is more favourable to the company. This could be by famine or feast. A company can start withholding certain perks or benefits OR vice versa, unilaterally implement their proposed contract in an effort to show how 'good' it is.

Even now, it's a little early to start guessing what actions will take place. But one thing is for sure, there will be lots of moving parts in the next month and a half.
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by Mach1 »

JBI wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:54 am ... unilaterally implement their proposed contract in an effort to show how 'good' it is.
I'm not sure where you are getting that information from. Could you supply a reference to that section of the labour law?

Thanks.
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JBI
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by JBI »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 1:29 pm
JBI wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 8:54 am ... unilaterally implement their proposed contract in an effort to show how 'good' it is.
I'm not sure where you are getting that information from. Could you supply a reference to that section of the labour law?

Thanks.
No problem, and to be clear, especially with this Management Group, I think that it is extremely unlikely that such an action would occur.

When parties are in Collective Bargaining, s.50 of the Canada Labour Code applies. Section 50(b) outlines:
50 Where notice to bargain collectively has been given under this Part,

(...)

(b) the employer shall not alter the rates of pay or any other term or condition of employment or any right or privilege of the employees in the bargaining unit, or any right or privilege of the bargaining agent, until the requirements of paragraphs 89(1)(a) to (d) have been met, unless the bargaining agent consents to the alteration of such a term or condition, or such a right or privilege.
As discussed above, once the parties are in a legal strike or lockout situation pursuant to s.89 of the Canada Labour Code, the freeze on the previous contract ends and, essentially, the former Collective Agreement ceases to exist. In Canadian Union of Postal Workers v Her Majesty in Right of Canada, 2017 ONSC 292, after the conciliation period came to an end, Canada Post unilaterally cancelled the previous Collective Agreement with its workers and imposed the minimum employment standards required under the Canada Labour Code.

While the Canada Labour Code refers to "strike and lockout" in sections 89, if the conditions for a lockout have been met, an employer can alter rates of pay or any other term or condition of employment. While the vast majority of the time these alterations would be to reduce pay rates etc. there's nothing that says they can't increase pay. IF, and I really do not think this is the case in the current situation, an employer felt that the employees would accept what they were offering, that could be a strategy. However, and I want to keep emphasizing this (!), I don't think this is something that will happen with this current employer or employee group.
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pacman007
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by pacman007 »

In todays environment of a major pilot shortage, does it make sense for the company to lock the pilots out? Wouldn’t that just drive more pilots to leave. Especially the ones on the fence? I don’t get the reasoning
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Mach1
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by Mach1 »

JBI wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 3:40 pm No problem, and to be clear, especially with this Management Group, I think that it is extremely unlikely that such an action would occur.

When parties are in Collective Bargaining, s.50 of the Canada Labour Code applies. Section 50(b) outlines:
50 Where notice to bargain collectively has been given under this Part,

(...)

(b) the employer shall not alter the rates of pay or any other term or condition of employment or any right or privilege of the employees in the bargaining unit, or any right or privilege of the bargaining agent, until the requirements of paragraphs 89(1)(a) to (d) have been met, unless the bargaining agent consents to the alteration of such a term or condition, or such a right or privilege.
As discussed above, once the parties are in a legal strike or lockout situation pursuant to s.89 of the Canada Labour Code, the freeze on the previous contract ends and, essentially, the former Collective Agreement ceases to exist. In Canadian Union of Postal Workers v Her Majesty in Right of Canada, 2017 ONSC 292, after the conciliation period came to an end, Canada Post unilaterally cancelled the previous Collective Agreement with its workers and imposed the minimum employment standards required under the Canada Labour Code.

While the Canada Labour Code refers to "strike and lockout" in sections 89, if the conditions for a lockout have been met, an employer can alter rates of pay or any other term or condition of employment. While the vast majority of the time these alterations would be to reduce pay rates etc. there's nothing that says they can't increase pay. IF, and I really do not think this is the case in the current situation, an employer felt that the employees would accept what they were offering, that could be a strategy. However, and I want to keep emphasizing this (!), I don't think this is something that will happen with this current employer or employee group.
Thanks for that. I was looking everywhere to find a reference for what you said and couldn't find it.

I am a little fuzzy on this being an Ontario (provincial) Supreme Court Ruling when we are Federally regulated employees. Wouldn't that make it a Federal court jurisdiction?
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by fish4life »

Red1 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm Why would anybody actually want a full on strike.. has there ever been a good outcome for a pilot group after a strike? every single gain the American carriers have got has come at the negotiating table. Sure, they might have a strike vote, but its a lever, just like what ever the CEO says its all part of the game. Its a game, the company want to pay you less, the pilots want to be paid more. At the end of the day its in everyone's best interest to find a negotiated deal. Just remember your playing a fairly high stakes game, but its still a game.
American carriers would love to be able to strike unfortunately due to the railway labor act it’s illegal for them to strike.
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JBI
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by JBI »

Mach1 wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:15 pm

I am a little fuzzy on this being an Ontario (provincial) Supreme Court Ruling when we are Federally regulated employees. Wouldn't that make it a Federal court jurisdiction?
Court jurisdiction in Canada is a bit of a dog’s breakfast. The Superior Courts of each province (I.E. BC Supreme Court, Alberta Court of King’s Bench) actually have inherent jurisdiction over issues even if they concern federal legislation. The Federal Court has legislative jurisdiction to review certain federal tribunals (such as the CIRB, TATC or CTA) but then also has jurisdiction to deal with certain federal matters (and often the Provincial courts also have jurisdiction for the same issue).

For labour law issues, the key distinction is about whether the Federal Canada Labour Code is being considered or the Provincial Labour Acts are being considered.

Clear as mud, right? There are literally hundreds of lengthy court decisions solely in the issue of whether a certain court has jurisdiction on an issue! And in aviation, it’s even more confusing as to what country should have jurisdiction!
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Mach1
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by Mach1 »

JBI wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:16 am Court jurisdiction in Canada is a bit of a dog’s breakfast. The Superior Courts of each province (I.E. BC Supreme Court, Alberta Court of King’s Bench) actually have inherent jurisdiction over issues even if they concern federal legislation. The Federal Court has legislative jurisdiction to review certain federal tribunals (such as the CIRB, TATC or CTA) but then also has jurisdiction to deal with certain federal matters (and often the Provincial courts also have jurisdiction for the same issue).

For labour law issues, the key distinction is about whether the Federal Canada Labour Code is being considered or the Provincial Labour Acts are being considered.

Clear as mud, right? There are literally hundreds of lengthy court decisions solely in the issue of whether a certain court has jurisdiction on an issue! And in aviation, it’s even more confusing as to what country should have jurisdiction!
Thanks for the explanation.
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A220Retired
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by A220Retired »

fish4life wrote: Mon Mar 27, 2023 9:42 pm
Red1 wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 6:25 pm Why would anybody actually want a full on strike.. has there ever been a good outcome for a pilot group after a strike? every single gain the American carriers have got has come at the negotiating table. Sure, they might have a strike vote, but its a lever, just like what ever the CEO says its all part of the game. Its a game, the company want to pay you less, the pilots want to be paid more. At the end of the day its in everyone's best interest to find a negotiated deal. Just remember your playing a fairly high stakes game, but its still a game.
American carriers would love to be able to strike unfortunately due to the railway labor act it’s illegal for them to strike.
Pilot striking is not illegal here in the US under the RLA. The President can only delay a strike by 60 days by convening of the Presidential Emergency Board (PEB), which Clinton did in 1997 with American Airlines. One year later Northwest pilots went on strike for 15 days in August and September. I was was hired by NWA 6 days after the strike ended. I flew with guys who had not one but two stars added to their ALPA service pins which denoted their participation in strike actions.
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Pilot321
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by Pilot321 »

Can anybody post the West jet pilot pay scale ?
Can't find it anywhere.
I want to compare with the other airlines.
Thks
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CaptDukeNukem
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Re: Smaller Westjet vs Pay Pilots

Post by CaptDukeNukem »

Pilot321 wrote: Sat May 20, 2023 7:29 am Can anybody post the West jet pilot pay scale ?
Can't find it anywhere.
I want to compare with the other airlines.
Thks
Lol. Go and learn to use a search engine. Try negotech.gc.ca

Single post on avcanada. Good work troll
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