Is AC considered a Legacy Airline anymore?

[BTD]

The contract will be renegotiated this autumn. I’m curious who brings up flat pay first? The pilots want it eliminated, but if AC does as well, it will be an interesting play.

The question is how many pilots want it to be eliminated? Was talking last year to a friend who was still on flat pay; he was on high horses to get it eliminated. Talked to him few days ago, now out of flat pay and said: my friend and I don’t care about the new hires on flat pay, we will negotiate for better conditions for ourselves out of flat pay!

I’m a 12 year pilot and I want flat pay eliminated. Not only is it more appropriate for the individuals but also for selfish reasons. Higher pay will attract more candidates and more experienced candidates. More competition means more likely to have the best candidates as new hires. Those are the individuals I want sitting next to me when I have an engine failure coming out of Quito.

[ZBBYLW]

I think most of us want to reduce flat pay to 1 or 2 years. We also want substantial increases to everyone's pay.

When the company picks up new 787s or 737s I don't think they can qualify for a "Canadian discount". They have enjoyed a solid discount on their pilots over the last 5-10 years. The cost of North American pilots are different than in 2014 when we signed up for 10 years of "inflationary" wages.

Yes let's fix flat pay, but truly we need to fix pay for everyone.

[rudder]

I think most of us want to reduce flat pay to 1 or 2 years. We also want substantial increases to everyone's pay.

Part of the reason that there are new-hires as WB FO is flat pay. Also a factor of lifestyle (juniority) but mostly it is $$. Why bid to be bottom 5% when for the same dollars you can be <50% as NB FO or WB RP?

No WB FO pay should be below $150k. If that was available in either year 2 or 3 there would be no WB FO vacancies available for new-hires in the bid.

1 year flat pay. Formula pay after that. Course rights will fix the rest.

[PilotZum]

Everybody here comparing AC to a third world country wages. I gotta say, AC has it worse. The cost of living in those countries are a lot lower than Canada,(they might be making very little money for us) on their perspective they make more than many doctors and lawyers in their countries, and can have a standard of living way higher than a poor air canada wb fo trying to survive on 55k in toronto.
I know a couple of pilots down in south america and see with my own eyes 250hr guys working for Latam and living much better than us in canada. We are way behind than most of you imagine.

[FNGYYZ]

Everybody here comparing AC to a third world country wages. I gotta say, AC has it worse. The cost of living in those countries are a lot lower than Canada,(they might be making very little money for us) on their perspective they make more than many doctors and lawyers in their countries, and can have a standard of living way higher than a poor air canada wb fo trying to survive on 55k in toronto.
I know a couple of pilots down in south america and see with my own eyes 250hr guys working for Latam and living much better than us in canada. We are way behind than most of you imagine.

Don't tell the VP of Flight Ops or the old boys of ACPA this!

This perspective might blow their mortgage free & disconnected brains

[bradleyscotts]

The only person whos comparing AC to third world countries is the original poster. He claimed AC had the lowest paid WB pilots in the world. He didnt even specify the lowest new hire pay he just said WB pilots.Here is the quote

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

I merely corrected him informing him that it wasnt the case.

He also claimed that AC had 3rd world country working conditions.

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Then there is NoreasterYHZ claiming that because WS is a LCC started in 1995 the outcome of their negotiations will not affect AC pilots. To him I say go read about pattern bargaining and the impact that its having in US carriers improvement in WAWCOM.

That should pretty much sums up the state of this "legacy carrier"

A year 1995 founded Low Cost Carrier is the company that has to lead the profession out of the gutter

AC is very much a Bush League operation mentality that operates like a global airline

Montroyal clearly getting emotional said the following,

Lol!!!

Air Mexico 787 FOs make $55k per year??

Please tell me you actually know something about anything

Always amazed on the ignorance of Air Canada Pilots

At least we make more than Kalitta Air!

Actually...you don't

Its important to be clear and concise when discussing the topic of pay and working conditions in Canada.

Air Canada 787 pilots do not make 55K a year. Air Canada new hire pilots on year 1 make 58K. The avg pay for a wide body FO is easily triple that. That factual statement is not a justification for flat pay or low pay when compared to US carriers. its merely a statement of fact that was worth mentioning to correct the original poster.

cdnavater was the only person who understood what I said about supporting WS pilots during this time.

I didn’t understand what bradleyscotts was saying the way you did, the fact of the matter is, that low cost founded in 1995 put downward pressure on the industry, however they are now first up to bat with an expired contract and a strike vote.
If they settle for 10% over three years, what chance does anyone else have when it’s their turn.
As for AC, you could almost look at them as two airlines, a NA carrier and an international carrier, which is where negotiations should go. The narrow body should be compared to any narrow body that operates into and out of Canada and the widebody should be compared to the same operations into and out of Canada, those would be paying the same fees, so apples to apples.

I'm personally not voting yes to anything less than a 30% uplift, in addition to a series of other quality of life improvements. Vacation and Scheduling. Lately, I've been a little concerned with pilots saying "flat pay is so bad that it has become a company issue , not a union issue. we shouldn't give anything up/negotiate to get rid of it". To them I say, what would you do if presented with a pay uplift and improvements you are happy with but leaving Flat Pay as is. Are you still voting yes? I certainly wouldn't.

[PositiveRate27]

The only person whos comparing AC to third world countries is the original poster. He claimed AC had the lowest paid WB pilots in the world. He didnt even specify the lowest new hire pay he just said WB pilots.Here is the quote

AC Widebody pilots are the lowest paid on the globe

I merely corrected him informing him that it wasnt the case.

He also claimed that AC had 3rd world country working conditions.

This doesn't even include the 3rd world working conditions

Then there is NoreasterYHZ claiming that because WS is a LCC started in 1995 the outcome of their negotiations will not affect AC pilots. To him I say go read about pattern bargaining and the impact that its having in US carriers improvement in WAWCOM.

That should pretty much sums up the state of this "legacy carrier"

A year 1995 founded Low Cost Carrier is the company that has to lead the profession out of the gutter

AC is very much a Bush League operation mentality that operates like a global airline

Montroyal clearly getting emotional said the following,

Lol!!!

Air Mexico 787 FOs make $55k per year??

Please tell me you actually know something about anything

Always amazed on the ignorance of Air Canada Pilots

At least we make more than Kalitta Air!

Actually...you don't

Its important to be clear and concise when discussing the topic of pay and working conditions in Canada.

Air Canada 787 pilots do not make 55K a year. Air Canada new hire pilots on year 1 make 58K. The avg pay for a wide body FO is easily triple that. That factual statement is not a justification for flat pay or low pay when compared to US carriers. its merely a statement of fact that was worth mentioning to correct the original poster.

cdnavater was the only person who understood what I said about supporting WS pilots during this time.

I didn’t understand what bradleyscotts was saying the way you did, the fact of the matter is, that low cost founded in 1995 put downward pressure on the industry, however they are now first up to bat with an expired contract and a strike vote.
If they settle for 10% over three years, what chance does anyone else have when it’s their turn.
As for AC, you could almost look at them as two airlines, a NA carrier and an international carrier, which is where negotiations should go. The narrow body should be compared to any narrow body that operates into and out of Canada and the widebody should be compared to the same operations into and out of Canada, those would be paying the same fees, so apples to apples.

I'm personally not voting yes to anything less than a 30% uplift, in addition to a series of other quality of life improvements. Vacation and Scheduling. Lately, I've been a little concerned with pilots saying "flat pay is so bad that it has become a company issue , not a union issue. we shouldn't give anything up/negotiate to get rid of it". To them I say, what would you do if presented with a pay uplift and improvements you are happy with but leaving Flat Pay as is. Are you still voting yes? I certainly wouldn't.

In YYZ 40% of the FOs on the 777/787 are on flat pay. 50% of the 330 FOs. A whopping 95% of the 767 FOs are on flat pay, with the privilege of advancing to 767 mainline rates -10% once on formula pay. 5 years of service on a WB to earn over $100k. I’ll say it again. 40% of the WB FOs in YYZ (our largest base by a long shot) make between $58k-$85k a year. At what point does the hairsplitting switch from some people are on “new hire FO pay” to damn near half the fleet? Even our year 12 WB FOs are paid crap globally. I’d say if we aren’t the lowest paid WB FOs in the world on average, we are certainly hard charging towards it.

[Montroyal]

Lol BradleyScott

You're the one that brought up LAN, Air Mexico, Avianca

I think you forgot a few other 3rd world companies that could really solidify your point on how great AC is

Looks like you forgot to do the calculation of how many pilots are on flat pay. This drags the average to embarrassing levels

Lowest paid Widebody FOs on the planet. Period

My bad on the starting wage. You're right. Thanks for the $55k to $58k correction. Makes a huge difference

[CaptDukeNukem]

My bad on the starting wage. You're right. Thanks for the $55k to $58k correction. Makes a huge difference

lol
That extra $3k a year is the difference between viscount parking or splurging on T1 parking

[Torontomaplelaughs]

I would describe AC as the best 705 carrier in Canada

I love this

Akin to saying the Toronto Blue Jay's are the best baseball team in Canada.

Duh...you're competition is south of the border...not the Halifax Mooseheads