AC Hiring

[canadian_aviator_4]

Hello. I thought I would start a new thread regarding AC hiring to not discuss so many varying items in the negotiations thread.
First question is what will the grievance actually accomplish, and what success did jazz have with any previous grievances?
Thank you all

[rudder]

Hello. I thought I would start a new thread regarding AC hiring to not discuss so many varying items in the negotiations thread.
First question is what will the grievance actually accomplish, and what success did jazz have with any previous grievances?
Thank you all

Previously addressed.

Remedy can only apply to parties to the Jazz/ALPA CBA.

If an arbitrator determines that the lack of flow rate compliance is due to Jazz, he/she can order compliance from Jazz and possibly impose a financial obligation if there was either individual or collective financial harm resulting from Jazz actions. However, if it is due to AC then the arbitrator can only direct Jazz to use available tools (CPA) to meet its obligations under the CBA. Assessing financial penalties might be less likely if it is a third party issue.

Filing a grievance is a tool in a broader initiative to reach a multi-lateral enforceable flow agreement.

[canadian_aviator_4]

So more than likely it would not result in any compensation for jazz pilots currently being affected by the flow agreement not being met?

[rudder]

So more than likely it would not result in any compensation for jazz pilots currently being affected by the flow agreement not being met?

I am not the arbitrator.

But if it turns out that flow rates are not being honoured DUE TO JAZZ then it then opens the assertion that financial remedy could be assessed (as giving back a missed AC seniority position cannot be assessed as remedy due to third and fourth party issues).

A proposed financial damage calculation would have to be submitted, considered, modified, and ultimately validated by an arbitrator.

I would not be spending this money yet. It is - at best - a lottery ticket.

The appropriate solution is a negotiated modified but FULLY ENFORCEABLE multi-lateral flow agreement.

Assuming that Jazz and ALPA can reach an agreement on an updated pay scale, appropriate flow rate should be reduced to on the order of 50% of every AC PIT course with a hold back provision that assures the held back Jazz Pilot an AC seniority number that would have flowed from attending that course. This is a 1:1 provision only. A held back Jazz Pilot cannot be replaced by another Jazz pilot on that PIT course. Holdback provision should have clearly defined parameters and a stated maximum duration.

But for now, pilots wishing to go to AC will go the route that will provide the quickest result. If that is Jazz, they will choose Jazz. If it is elsewhere, then they will choose elsewhere.

[canadian_aviator_4]

So more than likely it would not result in any compensation for jazz pilots currently being affected by the flow agreement not being met?

I am not the arbitrator.

But if it turns out that flow rates are not being honoured DUE TO JAZZ then it then opens the assertion that financial remedy could be assessed (as giving back a missed AC seniority position cannot be assessed as remedy due to third and fourth party issues).

A proposed financial damage calculation would have to be submitted, considered, modified, and ultimately validated by an arbitrator.

I would not be spending this money yet. It is - at best - a lottery ticket.

The appropriate solution is a negotiated modified but FULLY ENFORCEABLE multi-lateral flow agreement.

Assuming that Jazz and ALPA can reach an agreement on an updated pay scale, appropriate flow rate should be on the order of 50% of every AC PIT course with a hold back provision that assures the held back Jazz Pilot an AC seniority number that would have flowed from attending that course. This is a 1:1 provision only. A held back Jazz Pilot cannot be replaced by another Jazz pilot on that PIT course. Holdback duration should have clearly defined parameters and a stated maximum duration.

But for now, pilots wishing to go to AC will go the route that will provide the quickest result. If that is Jazz, they will choose Jazz. If it is elsewhere, then they will choose elsewhere.

Comparing a grievance to a lottery ticket, it does not sound very useful. The only response as you mentioned is for jazz pilots hoping to go to ac to sit and wait or leave. The leave option seems to be a better option daily, as the hiring timeline ots is extremely quick compared to being at jazz.

Overall it would be nice if any sort of agreement could be made to preserve some amount of lost seniority, especially for having assisted ac in flying their passengers and feeding the mainline.

[rudder]

The ‘lottery ticket’ is the financial damages. It is (largely) subjective. And it is also a present value calculation of a suggested future reduced or delayed earning while potentially currently earning more at Jazz than you would be earning at AC in year 1/2/3 under the current ACPA CBA (future changes in pay scale at AC are also just a prediction).

[Nick678]

Do we know who screwed this up? I’ve heard both stories

[canadian_aviator_4]

Do we know who screwed this up? I’ve heard both stories

The Jazz pilots in 2015 who voted yes to sign away the company in order to go to AC. For their advancement to AC screwing everyone else at jazz, and partially the Canadian Aviation Industry to this day suppressing pilot pay.

[rudder]

Do we know who screwed this up? I’ve heard both stories

That will be the purpose of the arbitration.

Senior Jazz Execs will have to state on the record positions taken with AC on this subject.

AC Execs could also be requested to provide written or oral testimony. Not sure what their legal obligations are to respond.

[Nick678]

ALPA refused to increase pay for trainers. They could shoulder some of the blame for this as well.

[lownslow]

any compensation for jazz pilots currently being affected by the flow agreement not being met?

How would this be actioned? Would AC send you a bill for the difference between what you’re currently making and the flat pay you’d otherwise be on?

[canadian_aviator_4]

any compensation for jazz pilots currently being affected by the flow agreement not being met?

How would this be actioned? Would AC send you a bill for the difference between what you’re currently making and the flat pay you’d otherwise be on?

I don’t think anything will happen. It’s just the union using the pilots who want to go to ac as leverage for their own gains. A grievance is their way to put pressure on the company to increase pay.

[Man_in_the_sky]

ALPA refused to increase pay for trainers. They could shoulder some of the blame for this as well.

they refused a raise that would help the company, but would only help a few of their members.. and now the company won't have other option than to provide a global raise..

[truedude]

ALPA refused to increase pay for trainers. They could shoulder some of the blame for this as well.

The union can't be blamed for forcing the company to operate under a contract that they wanted. The company doesn't just get to pick and choose which parts work and don't work for them, and then blame any of the resulting problems on the union.

The company (and AC) could have fixed this month's ago. Instead they tried to sneak through a terrible MOA at mainline to try and deal with the issue. Being cheap burned them. How long they want the pain to continue is 100% on them. They can fix it tomorrow of they wanted to.

[tailgunner]

In response to what Rudder opined on a reserved seniority number for a held back Jazz pilot, I would suggest that this is a no go at this time. It is my belief, talking with those that I fly with and converse with, that there is little appetite from AC pilots to entertain the idea of reserved seniority numbers for Jazz pilots. The prevailing mood is that there would need to be huge gains by AC pilots to even contemplate amending the seniority agreement to allow for reserved Jazz numbers.
Cheers.

[PostmasterGeneral]

So more than likely it would not result in any compensation for jazz pilots currently being affected by the flow agreement not being met?

Correct.

[Curiousflyer]

In response to what Rudder opined on a reserved seniority number for a held back Jazz pilot, I would suggest that this is a no go at this time. It is my belief, talking with those that I fly with and converse with, that there is little appetite from AC pilots to entertain the idea of reserved seniority numbers for Jazz pilots. The prevailing mood is that there would need to be huge gains by AC pilots to even contemplate amending the seniority agreement to allow for reserved Jazz numbers.
Cheers.

Reserving seniority numbers just lowers wages at Jazz, which in turn just lowers wages across the entire industry. Not to mention that it is completely unenforceable, just like the 60% flow through agreement. Best to have Jazz compete with the other Regionals on wages and working conditions ONLY, which will raise pay rates across the industry.

[rudder]

In response to what Rudder opined on a reserved seniority number for a held back Jazz pilot, I would suggest that this is a no go at this time. It is my belief, talking with those that I fly with and converse with, that there is little appetite from AC pilots to entertain the idea of reserved seniority numbers for Jazz pilots. The prevailing mood is that there would need to be huge gains by AC pilots to even contemplate amending the seniority agreement to allow for reserved Jazz numbers.
Cheers.

No doubt, such an arrangement would go part and parcel with a new CBA for the AC pilots.

Good luck to all.

[PostmasterGeneral]

In response to what Rudder opined on a reserved seniority number for a held back Jazz pilot, I would suggest that this is a no go at this time. It is my belief, talking with those that I fly with and converse with, that there is little appetite from AC pilots to entertain the idea of reserved seniority numbers for Jazz pilots. The prevailing mood is that there would need to be huge gains by AC pilots to even contemplate amending the seniority agreement to allow for reserved Jazz numbers.
Cheers.

No doubt, such an arrangement would go part and parcel with a new CBA for the AC pilots.

Good luck to all.

It's just not something I can see the Air Canada pilots using bargaining capital on. If Jazz wants to attract pilots, they will have to raise wages, or park airplanes. The AC "flow" arrangement clearly didn't work.

[flyer 1492]

All a grievance started by the MEC shows the jazz pilots that they are trying to do something. Even though they caused this fiasco in the first place by endorsing a 17 year contract with no openings for wage adjustments.

[rudder]

In response to what Rudder opined on a reserved seniority number for a held back Jazz pilot, I would suggest that this is a no go at this time. It is my belief, talking with those that I fly with and converse with, that there is little appetite from AC pilots to entertain the idea of reserved seniority numbers for Jazz pilots. The prevailing mood is that there would need to be huge gains by AC pilots to even contemplate amending the seniority agreement to allow for reserved Jazz numbers.
Cheers.

No doubt, such an arrangement would go part and parcel with a new CBA for the AC pilots.

Good luck to all.

It's just not something I can see the Air Canada pilots using bargaining capital on. If Jazz wants to attract pilots, they will have to raise wages, or park airplanes. The AC "flow" arrangement clearly didn't work.

Reserved numbers/flow are not to attract pilots to Jazz.

It is to protect the operational integrity of the Express operation (and feed).

It won’t be ACPA bargaining capital being spent. It will be AC bargaining capital being spent.

[Inverted2]

Somethings going to have to give soon. The status quo isn’t working and it’s not sustainable much longer. It’s mostly FOs going to AC now. Majority of the others can’t upgrade and a lot of the captains are going to Porter/elsewhere.

[Curiousflyer]

No doubt, such an arrangement would go part and parcel with a new CBA for the AC pilots.

Good luck to all.

It's just not something I can see the Air Canada pilots using bargaining capital on. If Jazz wants to attract pilots, they will have to raise wages, or park airplanes. The AC "flow" arrangement clearly didn't work.

Reserved numbers/flow are not to attract pilots to Jazz.

It is to protect the operational integrity of the Express operation (and feed).

It won’t be ACPA bargaining capital being spent. It will be AC bargaining capital being spent.

This is quite the reverse psychology.

Reserved numbers and flow are only to attract and retain pilots at lower pay rates.

There are thousands of qualified pilots, ex-pats, corporate, etc that would be more than willing to go fly an RJ around. The problem is pay and working conditions, the supply is there, AC just doesn’t want to pay for it. Rather than paying for it, reserved numbers allows AC to retain a cheap 705 captain for a couple more years. Is that protecting the operation? Sure is, at the cheapest rate possible.

If the pilot group in Canada wants progress, there is only one way for us to do it. Pay.

[rudder]

It's just not something I can see the Air Canada pilots using bargaining capital on. If Jazz wants to attract pilots, they will have to raise wages, or park airplanes. The AC "flow" arrangement clearly didn't work.

Reserved numbers/flow are not to attract pilots to Jazz.

It is to protect the operational integrity of the Express operation (and feed).

It won’t be ACPA bargaining capital being spent. It will be AC bargaining capital being spent.

This is quite the reverse psychology.

Reserved numbers and flow are only to attract and retain pilots at lower pay rates.

There are thousands of qualified pilots, ex-pats, corporate, etc that would be more than willing to go fly an RJ around. The problem is pay and working conditions, the supply is there, AC just doesn’t want to pay for it. Rather than paying for it, reserved numbers allows AC to retain a cheap 705 captain for a couple more years. Is that protecting the operation? Sure is, at the cheapest rate possible.

If the pilot group in Canada wants progress, there is only one way for us to do it. Pay.

Who said pay didn’t have to change?

It isn’t either/or. It is both. And there are two distinct deficiencies at Jazz affecting the ability to attract and retain qualified pilots. Pay and flow.

Pay needs to rise to a level that is competitive with other 705 employment options. And flow needs to be modified such that going to Jazz does not become a de facto impediment to being hired at AC, nor an impediment to staffing the Express schedule.

[flyinhigh]

There seems to be a mass thought about pay increases for the Jazz group. I think one aspect that is being overlooked is the benefits.

The way you’re currently setup you’re paying what, 33% (just what I have been told) of your cheque to health and dental? That value will continue to increase as wages increase. If you could somehow look at having that significantly reduced you’ll find you might have up to a mortgage payment in your account at the end of the month with having to fight for the annual raise.

My last company I paid $80 bi-weekly for LTD, current company is $24 bi-weekly. At transat a second yr FO is paying around $200 bi-weekly. Think of your bank account at the end of the year when you can reduce the benefit costs alone.

FYI, yes I do think that Jazz pilots are under paid by a lot, however that brutal contract that was signed won’t allow for serious discussions if the company is not open to it. The above is simply an avenue which could help.