PC12 pilot applying for ATPL with ''expired'' Group 1.

[Benm11]

Hey everybody

I am ready to apply for my ATPL, but since last fall I got a job as a PC12 capt and so my last group 1 check is more than 12 months old (was a type rating).

I don't want to wait for my exams to expire and so I am looking at paying for a group 1 ride in a school. I have been told by some I can do it in an approved sim and told by others it has to be on aircraft (ie seminole).

If the sim is good enough to renew my group 1, why wouldn't it be good enough to apply for the license? If I had done a type rating in a sim it would be adequate. Can't find in the CAR's.

Thanks

[‘Bob’]

How is a PC12 “group 1?”

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:
(amended 1999/03/01)
(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and
(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.
(b) For issue of the Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, the Minister shall only endorse a Group 1 Instrument Rating on the licence. (amended 2005/06/01)

Seems pretty explicit in the regs to me. No multi engine, no skill requirement regardless if you hold a Group 1.

[Benm11]

How is a PC12 “group 1?”

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:
(amended 1999/03/01)
(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and
(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.
(b) For issue of the Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, the Minister shall only endorse a Group 1 Instrument Rating on the licence. (amended 2005/06/01)

Seems pretty explicit in the regs to me. No multi engine, no skill requirement regardless if you hold a Group 1.

Maybe I didn't explain properly...

The question isn't IF I need a group 1, as PC12 is group 3.

I have a multi engine type rating but it is more than 12 months old. The question is , to do a group 1 in a flight school, would a approved sim suffice or does it have to be in an aircraft and why.

[Aviatard]

How is a PC12 “group 1?”

(5) Skill

(a) Within the 12 months preceding the date of application for the licence, an applicant shall demonstrate in a multi-engined aeroplane with no central thrust configuration and fitted with instruments and equipment suitable for IFR flight in controlled airspace, familiarity with and the ability:
(amended 1999/03/01)
(i) to perform both normal and emergency flight procedures and manoeuvres appropriate to the aeroplane in which the flight test is conducted; and
(ii) to execute all manoeuvres and procedures set forth in Division XIV for issue of a Group 1 instrument rating.
(b) For issue of the Airline Transport Pilot Licence - Aeroplane, the Minister shall only endorse a Group 1 Instrument Rating on the licence. (amended 2005/06/01)

Seems pretty explicit in the regs to me. No multi engine, no skill requirement regardless if you hold a Group 1.

Maybe I didn't explain properly...

The question isn't IF I need a group 1, as PC12 is group 3.

I have a multi engine type rating but it is more than 12 months old. The question is , to do a group 1 in a flight school, would a approved sim suffice or does it have to be in an aircraft and why.

You could renew an IPC in flight training device but since you’re applying for the ATPL your group 1 has to have been done in an airplane in the previous 12 months. 421.34(5) as Bob posted above. No sim or ftd allowed.

[Benm11]

How is a PC12 “group 1?”



Seems pretty explicit in the regs to me. No multi engine, no skill requirement regardless if you hold a Group 1.

Maybe I didn't explain properly...

The question isn't IF I need a group 1, as PC12 is group 3.

I have a multi engine type rating but it is more than 12 months old. The question is , to do a group 1 in a flight school, would a approved sim suffice or does it have to be in an aircraft and why.

You could renew an IPC in flight training device but since you’re applying for the ATPL your group 1 has to have been done in an airplane in the previous 12 months. 421.34(5) as Bob posted above. No sim or ftd allowed.

Thanks for the reply,

So regarding that, if I did a type rating on DHC8 or 737 for example, that would be in a sim and that would be accepted for the atpl.

Whats the difference between that and an ALX sim on PA44 for example.

[C-GGGQ]

Group 1’s are good for two years though? IPC’s are only two years.

[Aviatard]

Maybe I didn't explain properly...

The question isn't IF I need a group 1, as PC12 is group 3.

I have a multi engine type rating but it is more than 12 months old. The question is , to do a group 1 in a flight school, would a approved sim suffice or does it have to be in an aircraft and why.

You could renew an IPC in flight training device but since you’re applying for the ATPL your group 1 has to have been done in an airplane in the previous 12 months. 421.34(5) as Bob posted above. No sim or ftd allowed.

Thanks for the reply,

So regarding that, if I did a type rating on DHC8 or 737 for example, that would be in a sim and that would be accepted for the atpl.

Whats the difference between that and an ALX sim on PA44 for example.

Read the standard again.
In.
An.
Airplane.

[Benm11]

You could renew an IPC in flight training device but since you’re applying for the ATPL your group 1 has to have been done in an airplane in the previous 12 months. 421.34(5) as Bob posted above. No sim or ftd allowed.

Thanks for the reply,

So regarding that, if I did a type rating on DHC8 or 737 for example, that would be in a sim and that would be accepted for the atpl.

Whats the difference between that and an ALX sim on PA44 for example.

Read the standard again.
In.
An.
Airplane.

Mr. Aviatard, you don't seem to understand the base of the question.

What you're telling me is that if tomorrow I get a PPC on a 737 with Westjet, in order to apply for my ATPL I will need to to do a flight check in a piper seminole.

Thanks in advance for staying civil.

[Aviatard]

Thanks for the reply,

So regarding that, if I did a type rating on DHC8 or 737 for example, that would be in a sim and that would be accepted for the atpl.

Whats the difference between that and an ALX sim on PA44 for example.

Read the standard again.
In.
An.
Airplane.

Mr. Aviatard, you don't seem to understand the base of the question.

What you're telling me is that if tomorrow I get a PPC on a 737 with Westjet, in order to apply for my ATPL I will need to to do a flight check in a piper seminole.

Thanks in advance for staying civil.

If the PPC was in a 737 aircraft and not a simulator it would count toward the ATPL requirement. Otherwise you will need to do a flight in an aircraft. Read the standard. Bob quoted it for you above. He even highlighted the words multi-engine airplane in red.

[Chaxterium]

Call someone at Transport and ask. Yes, the regs do specifically say "multi-engine-AIRPLANE" but my last PPC ride (in a sim) was used to satisfy the skill requirement when I applied for my ATPL. Most inspectors will tell you that a Level C or D sim is perfectly fine.

But keep in mind, based on the wording, they can be sticklers if they choose.

There's a thread on here from 7 years ago about the same thing. One of the posters quoted an email they received from an inspector which read:

The standards for the ATPL-A skill test has always required to applicant to perform the skill test in a Group 1 aeroplane and Flight Crew Licensing- Headquarters (FCL –HQ) have accepted by policy a scripted PPC completed in a Level C or D simulator under PART VII of the CARs.

viewtopic.php?p=958168&hilit=airplane#p958168

[Benm11]

Call someone at Transport and ask. Yes, the regs do specifically say "multi-engine-AIRPLANE" but my last PPC ride (in a sim) was used to satisfy the skill requirement when I applied for my ATPL. Most inspectors will tell you that a Level C or D sim is perfectly fine.

But keep in mind, based on the wording, they can be sticklers if they choose.

There's a thread on here from 7 years ago about the same thing. One of the posters quoted an email they received from an inspector which read:

The standards for the ATPL-A skill test has always required to applicant to perform the skill test in a Group 1 aeroplane and Flight Crew Licensing- Headquarters (FCL –HQ) have accepted by policy a scripted PPC completed in a Level C or D simulator under PART VII of the CARs.

viewtopic.php?p=958168&hilit=airplane#p958168

Thank You !!!!

[Cessna 180]

They will accept a Level C or D sim as the skill requirement for an ATP.

[praveen4143]

Multi engine airplane or level C or D simulator. Flight Training devices (FTDs) don’t count if that helps.

[ruffdeezy]

Group 1 IPC in aircraft or PPC in aircraft or level C, D sim

[Flipflopfly]

.

[FL030]

I recommend Cornwall Aviation to get it done. You can fly into Ottawa, rent a car, drive down there and get it done, and fly back home in one day.

Air Canada is hiring straight off the PC-12 now so I imagine there's going to be a lot of people in this situation.

[captshak]

Did you submit your ATPL with Group 1 airplane or level c/d sim then? I’m in a similar situation.

[khedrei]

Level D sim is fine. I assume a level C counts as well. If you can get a type rating on it, then you can get your ATPL signed off on it.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I think t is important to understand that when you say “sim” you are saying a level B,C or D simulator. Flight schools don’t have sims they have Flight Training Devices or FTD’s. Because of the limitations of FTD’s TC only allows them to be used to conduct IPC for someone who already holds an instrument rating.

For the same reason TC requires the applicant for an ATPL to have done an IRT in an airplane as proof of skill. Since a level C or D sim fully replicates flying an airplane a policy decision was made that it will be deemed equivalent to a flight test in an airplane.

There is AFAIK, no interest in TC to change this policy.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Level C or D sim counts. If it’s level C and you are joining a 705 airline. You may need to do a couple circuits in the machine. But your ATPL should be fine