‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

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Lt. Daniel Kaffee
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by Lt. Daniel Kaffee »

Still triggered I see. Maybe you should go back to your WhatsApp safe space.
It's so obvious that guys like you (if not you exactly you), have turned our contract into a "concessionary -go nowhere- pile of loosely written trash".
Still hoping are you?....nothing to do with me. Waiting for the miracle that ALPA delivered to WJ, Jazz, and all the others to lift Air Canada pilots to the top quartile of North American airlines.
Think about that before you talk politics with your FO on a layover.
Nice try....not even a Captain...so maybe you need to think before your fingers start typing on Mom's computer..... :smt040
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BTD
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by BTD »

RippleRock wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 7:07 am
Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:29 am
Shouldn't you be studying your AOM? God knows you're rusty.

Word on the line is that moss has grown thick on you formerly "fully displaced cottage dwellers" ...... semi-retired hanging out in your "work from cottage" ACPA dues furnished offices and high speed remote internet. No one is taking any of you seriously anymore.
Your pettiness and immaturity know no bounds do they?

Maybe you've heard of an ad hominem argument(s)...hopefully you and your snow flake cohort do....because apparently that's all you are capable of.

FYI...never been elected or a volunteer for ACPA...hard to believe eh?

No one takes me seriously ...that's certainly true...but it doesn't take much to get you millenials all riled up and talking out of your @sses.....
I love giving you guys just enough rope to hang yourselves with. You make it easy.

It's so obvious that guys like you (if not you exactly you), have turned our contract into a "concessionary -go nowhere- pile of loosely written trash".

It takes no further retort from me to make you guys look dumb.

FWIW.....Anyone left holding the ACPA torch is going to look like an idiot. Think about that before you talk politics with your FO on a layover.
He can’t handle the truth.
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bcflyer
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by bcflyer »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:48 pm Still triggered I see. Maybe you should go back to your WhatsApp safe space.
It's so obvious that guys like you (if not you exactly you), have turned our contract into a "concessionary -go nowhere- pile of loosely written trash".
Still hoping are you?....nothing to do with me. Waiting for the miracle that ALPA delivered to WJ, Jazz, and all the others to lift Air Canada pilots to the top quartile of North American airlines.
Think about that before you talk politics with your FO on a layover.
Nice try....not even a Captain...so maybe you need to think before your fingers start typing on Mom's computer..... :smt040
Waiting for the smaller airlines, regional carrier and a LCC to raise A/C wages? You can’t be serious. AC is at the top of the pile for airlines in Canada for fleet size, fleet diversification and destinations. We should be the ones pulling everyone else up. Bragging we make more money than a regional carrier or a LCC is pathetic.
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eurotrash
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by eurotrash »

bcflyer wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:04 am
Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:48 pm Still triggered I see. Maybe you should go back to your WhatsApp safe space.
It's so obvious that guys like you (if not you exactly you), have turned our contract into a "concessionary -go nowhere- pile of loosely written trash".
Still hoping are you?....nothing to do with me. Waiting for the miracle that ALPA delivered to WJ, Jazz, and all the others to lift Air Canada pilots to the top quartile of North American airlines.
Think about that before you talk politics with your FO on a layover.
Nice try....not even a Captain...so maybe you need to think before your fingers start typing on Mom's computer..... :smt040
Waiting for the smaller airlines, regional carrier and a LCC to raise A/C wages? You can’t be serious. AC is at the top of the pile for airlines in Canada for fleet size, fleet diversification and destinations. We should be the ones pulling everyone else up. Bragging we make more money than a regional carrier or a LCC is pathetic.
But par for the course from this gang

Luckily they will never have the keys to the car again

Rationalizing their existence by comparing themselves to regionals & Low Cost Carriers is no longer palpable to even the most unengaged & prolific yes voter

The days of demonizing each other is over. Pilots are uniting minus the selfish few that will sling mud safely from the Cottage front porch
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RippleRock
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by RippleRock »

Lt. Daniel Kaffee wrote: Fri Apr 21, 2023 1:48 pm Still triggered I see. Maybe you should go back to your WhatsApp safe space.
It's so obvious that guys like you (if not you exactly you), have turned our contract into a "concessionary -go nowhere- pile of loosely written trash".
Still hoping are you?....nothing to do with me. Waiting for the miracle that ALPA delivered to WJ, Jazz, and all the others to lift Air Canada pilots to the top quartile of North American airlines.
Think about that before you talk politics with your FO on a layover.
Nice try....not even a Captain...so maybe you need to think before your fingers start typing on Mom's computer..... :smt040
First off Kaffee, you slinging "Mom" jokes at a 57 year old (me) is pretty infantile. It tells me a lot about who you are, your age (relative) and your character. You not being a Captain after this long tells me even more.

I'm assuming you are a "long time" widebody FO that hides behind the apron of your Skipper. You don't like responsibility. Why should you be responsible for what has happened to WACON over the last 20 years? Why should you?

My bet is you don't fly with many pilots who are struggling to make ends meet in an expensive base supporting a young family. You don't want the "Company boat rocked" so you can continue to sell of the contract "piecemeal" and reap the benefits at others expense of those junior. You don't have to listen to their stories as yours is the only one that matters. The only story you hear consistently is the one of your Boomer Skippers. Multiple homes in Vancouver or on the Island. How great the last three decades have been for them. You guys are clueless to the struggle going on beneath you. You've been all about protecting the top end. Nothing else exists.

Real professionalism in this career (one that neither you, nor I made), includes leaving it in better shape than when you or I got here. We have watched the decimation of a relatively through contract over the last 20 years. It's a freaking disaster. Both you and I are responsible.

The least we can do is get out of the friggin way while the junior Membership tries to right a ship we were so determined to capsize to benefit anyone but them.
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RippleRock
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by RippleRock »

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Bede
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by Bede »

RippleRock wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:35 am Real professionalism in this career (one that neither you, nor I made), includes leaving it in better shape than when you or I got here. We have watched the decimation of a relatively through contract over the last 20 years. It's a freaking disaster. Both you and I are responsible.

The least we can do is get out of the friggin way while the junior Membership tries to right a ship we were so determined to capsize to benefit anyone but them.
Massive +1
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Crewbunk
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by Crewbunk »

RippleRock wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:35 am The least we can do is get out of the friggin way while the junior Membership tries to right a ship we were so determined to capsize to benefit anyone but them.
Hear hear!

The Junior Membership has the drive and if ALPA is voted in, they’ll have tools. As I march closer to retirement, I am truly envious as this generation builds their future.
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dontcallmeshirley
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by dontcallmeshirley »

bcflyer wrote: Tue Apr 25, 2023 7:04 amBragging we make more money than a regional carrier or a LCC is pathetic.
I would like to point out that a first year FO at Encore is making $52.51 an hour with 900 hours per year. On top of that, they are taking home $850 per month flat rate.

That means that an Encore Q400 first year FO is making around $85 per year in base salary than an Air Canada 777 first officer.
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Crewbunk
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by Crewbunk »

dontcallmeshirley wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:43 pm That means that an Encore Q400 first year FO is making around $85 more per year in base salary than an Air Canada 777 first officer.
Good for him. In his fifth year, that 777 F/O will make about $180K/yr. How’s that Encore F/O doing? In his 12th year, that 777 F/O will make about $263K/yr.

(85 hrs a month, no VO, no draft, half day/half night, 2023 wages compounded 2% raise yearly).

But you’re right, a Saskatoon layover in mosquito season is much nicer than Sydney, Australia, Tokyo, Paris or Santiago, Chile. Makes the $85 worth it all.
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BTD
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by BTD »

Crewbunk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:02 pm
dontcallmeshirley wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:43 pm That means that an Encore Q400 first year FO is making around $85 more per year in base salary than an Air Canada 777 first officer.
Good for him. In his fifth year, that 777 F/O will make about $180K/yr. How’s that Encore F/O doing? In his 12th year, that 777 F/O will make about $263K/yr.

(85 hrs a month, no VO, no draft, half day/half night, 2023 wages compounded 2% raise yearly).

But you’re right, a Saskatoon layover in mosquito season is much nicer than Sydney, Australia, Tokyo, Paris or Santiago, Chile. Makes the $85 worth it all.
I think you missed his point.
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skyhighh
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by skyhighh »

Crewbunk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:02 pm
dontcallmeshirley wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:43 pm That means that an Encore Q400 first year FO is making around $85 more per year in base salary than an Air Canada 777 first officer.
Good for him. In his fifth year, that 777 F/O will make about $180K/yr. How’s that Encore F/O doing? In his 12th year, that 777 F/O will make about $263K/yr.

(85 hrs a month, no VO, no draft, half day/half night, 2023 wages compounded 2% raise yearly).

But you’re right, a Saskatoon layover in mosquito season is much nicer than Sydney, Australia, Tokyo, Paris or Santiago, Chile. Makes the $85 worth it all.
How much experience is required to go right seat at Encore VS Air Canada? After 10+ year of experience do you think it’s normal that an Air Canada FO on a 787 can’t pay rent and need a second job? Come on…
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stall
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by stall »

BTD wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:10 pm
Crewbunk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:02 pm
dontcallmeshirley wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:43 pm That means that an Encore Q400 first year FO is making around $85 more per year in base salary than an Air Canada 777 first officer.
Good for him. In his fifth year, that 777 F/O will make about $180K/yr. How’s that Encore F/O doing? In his 12th year, that 777 F/O will make about $263K/yr.

(85 hrs a month, no VO, no draft, half day/half night, 2023 wages compounded 2% raise yearly).

But you’re right, a Saskatoon layover in mosquito season is much nicer than Sydney, Australia, Tokyo, Paris or Santiago, Chile. Makes the $85 worth it all.
I think you missed his point.
Indeed

The fact we are comparing a Regional low cost carrier Q400 pilot to a legacy 777 pilot pretty much sums up how Canuckistan pilots lost the plot
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Crewbunk
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by Crewbunk »

BTD wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:10 pm I think you missed his point.
I believe you are correct. I apologize.

But …. to reflect on the point, (and others). Yes, it is possible for someone on flat pay to sit in the right seat of a Triple. It’s less of a flat pay matter and more a matter of extreme pilot hiring and being placed where needed. While preferences are acknowledged and efficiency dictates that new hires are awarded as close as possible to that preference …. some oddities do pop up.

But, I think the greater oddity is that there is a possibility that both the F/O and the R/P could be on first year flat pay!

No one thinks flat pay is anything but an abomination, an indication of how the “old” ACPA treated junior pilots. But honestly, as long as there is a line-up to join AC, I can’t see it changing any time before contract renegotiation.
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by RVR6000 »

Crewbunk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:34 pm
BTD wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:10 pm I think you missed his point.
I believe you are correct. I apologize.

But …. to reflect on the point, (and others). Yes, it is possible for someone on flat pay to sit in the right seat of a Triple. It’s less of a flat pay matter and more a matter of extreme pilot hiring and being placed where needed. While preferences are acknowledged and efficiency dictates that new hires are awarded as close as possible to that preference …. some oddities do pop up.
It’s not a possibility, it is a reality. We currently have tons of wide-body FO’s on flat pay. Soon it will be several hundred. Where does all that cost savings go for the company, when the FA’s in the back are making more than the SIC of a $300 million jet?

It’s ACPA’s failure over the past 20 years for not respecting the profession and not respecting the positions/responsibilities accordingly. How hard was it to put a simply clause in the contract that wide-body FOs will be on formula pay only.
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by RVR6000 »

Crewbunk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 4:02 pm
dontcallmeshirley wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:43 pm That means that an Encore Q400 first year FO is making around $85 more per year in base salary than an Air Canada 777 first officer.
Good for him. In his fifth year, that 777 F/O will make about $180K/yr. How’s that Encore F/O doing? In his 12th year, that 777 F/O will make about $263K/yr.

(85 hrs a month, no VO, no draft, half day/half night, 2023 wages compounded 2% raise yearly).

But you’re right, a Saskatoon layover in mosquito season is much nicer than Sydney, Australia, Tokyo, Paris or Santiago, Chile. Makes the $85 worth it all.
It’s funny how you’re compounding 2% raises annually, cause in 2012 FOs and RP pay rates dropped by 20-30%. ACPA took those reduced rates in 2014 and gave it a 2% a year and called it a 23% raise. In reality it took 6-7 years just to catch up to those old pay rates.
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by Crewbunk »

RVR6000 wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:17 pm It’s funny how you’re compounding 2% raises annually, cause in 2012 FOs and RP pay rates dropped by 20-30%. ACPA took those reduced rates in 2014 and gave it a 2% a year and called it a 23% raise. In reality it took 6-7 years just to catch up to those old pay rates.
With 2% annually in the current contract, It’s tempting to say, looking to the future that ACPA couldn’t do any worse. The last 20 years have proven me wrong.

Fingers crossed.
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by Crewbunk »

RVR6000 wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:09 pmIt’s ACPA’s failure over the past 20 years for not respecting the profession and not respecting the positions/responsibilities accordingly. How hard was it to put a simply clause in the contract that wide-body FOs will be on formula pay only.
Preaching to the choir buddy, preaching to the choir.
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by BTD »

Crewbunk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:34 pm
BTD wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:10 pm I think you missed his point.
I believe you are correct. I apologize.

But …. to reflect on the point, (and others). Yes, it is possible for someone on flat pay to sit in the right seat of a Triple. It’s less of a flat pay matter and more a matter of extreme pilot hiring and being placed where needed. While preferences are acknowledged and efficiency dictates that new hires are awarded as close as possible to that preference …. some oddities do pop up.

But, I think the greater oddity is that there is a possibility that both the F/O and the R/P could be on first year flat pay!

No one thinks flat pay is anything but an abomination, an indication of how the “old” ACPA treated junior pilots. But honestly, as long as there is a line-up to join AC, I can’t see it changing any time before contract renegotiation.
I would disagree. When I was hired, right seat 777 was min 15 years at the bottom of the list. Then flat pay came and every aircraft was the same for those first 4 years. If it weren’t for flat pay there would be a fraction of the number of new hire positions on the wide body F.o. Side.

It is flat pay and to some extent the massive hiring.
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PositiveRate27
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Re: ‘‘Twas the night before ALPA

Post by PositiveRate27 »

RVR6000 wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 7:09 pm
Crewbunk wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 6:34 pm
BTD wrote: Wed Apr 26, 2023 5:10 pm I think you missed his point.
I believe you are correct. I apologize.

But …. to reflect on the point, (and others). Yes, it is possible for someone on flat pay to sit in the right seat of a Triple. It’s less of a flat pay matter and more a matter of extreme pilot hiring and being placed where needed. While preferences are acknowledged and efficiency dictates that new hires are awarded as close as possible to that preference …. some oddities do pop up.
It’s not a possibility, it is a reality. We currently have tons of wide-body FO’s on flat pay. Soon it will be several hundred. Where does all that cost savings go for the company, when the FA’s in the back are making more than the SIC of a $300 million jet?

It’s ACPA’s failure over the past 20 years for not respecting the profession and not respecting the positions/responsibilities accordingly. How hard was it to put a simply clause in the contract that wide-body FOs will be on formula pay only.
It changes monthly but as of the latest equipment bid between the 777/787/330/767 fleets through all bases we have roughly 400 WB FO positions including vacancies that would be flat pay.

As mentioned earlier, those were previously 15 year jobs but our stellar contract has made them undesirable positions. Why work harder with a worse schedule and more responsibility for the same dismal pay?

ACPA truly is the only association that could pull off making the WB fleets undesirable for almost the first half decade of a pilot’s career.
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