bolton lake air service quick thinking
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bush pilot
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- Location: Boringtown
On our PT6's you only need to cool them down for a min if you go above 610 on the ITT on reverse or taxing in. You can help them out by turning off the ECS system or the bleed air on the side you are going to bring the power up on when taxiing or doing a high power turn in a tight location so the engine gets more cooling.
Did It do that Yesterday?
Everybody's opinions count, but to say that proper operating procedures are beneath contempt is fatuous. If I flew your -3 and did not count (6? I forget) blades before turning on the mags, or if I used the wrong grade of oil, or if I did not use the primer correctly on start or operated the cowl gills wrong, or spilt alcohol all over the floor when doing the prop reservoir, or failed to put the mixture in rich at the correct time, or being sure not to shock-cool in the descent etc. etc. etc. You would explain to me carefully that if I am to keep my job and succeed in the operation of a Racer and to save you money, I should use 'proper operating procedures.' And yes, a 'Ho is a newer-generation of a/c than a Racer or a Catalina, but it still requires 'proper operating procedure' just like a Global Express does - to ignore those p.o.p.s is to raise operating costs and perhaps increase AOG, as well as compromise safety. It (one of) the mark(s) of a professional pilot.
So if I feel that a discussion on the operations of a 'Ho and how I used to do it might benefit someone's operation, someone may appreciate the fact that I am a survivor.
So if I feel that a discussion on the operations of a 'Ho and how I used to do it might benefit someone's operation, someone may appreciate the fact that I am a survivor.
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
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Cat Driver
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" Everybody's opinions count, but to say that proper operating procedures are beneath contempt is fatuous. "
xsbank, I do not think anyone is saying that pilots should not follow proper operating proceedures, this thread was about going around after a prop strike because the gear was not down.
I think the problem here is we keep getting focused on things that shoulld be part of all professional pilots normal day to day methods of operating an aircraft and get arguing about specific proceedures like how to handle engines...that is no more nor no less than a proper check out on type.
My comments about fixation on SOP's and the inability to understand the reasons behind these proceedures not to mention poor flying skills are based on my own experience checking pilots out over the past many decades.
It is my experience that the training standards in the past say twenty years are getting further away from flying and more focused on the monkey see monkey do kind of mindset learned by rote and without an understanding of why.
And it is not only in Canada, it is world wide.
Cat
xsbank, I do not think anyone is saying that pilots should not follow proper operating proceedures, this thread was about going around after a prop strike because the gear was not down.
I think the problem here is we keep getting focused on things that shoulld be part of all professional pilots normal day to day methods of operating an aircraft and get arguing about specific proceedures like how to handle engines...that is no more nor no less than a proper check out on type.
My comments about fixation on SOP's and the inability to understand the reasons behind these proceedures not to mention poor flying skills are based on my own experience checking pilots out over the past many decades.
It is my experience that the training standards in the past say twenty years are getting further away from flying and more focused on the monkey see monkey do kind of mindset learned by rote and without an understanding of why.
And it is not only in Canada, it is world wide.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Juice's Nightmare
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- Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 6:28 pm
I'm a big boy and take my lumps so I should not have mentioned the King Air part and for that I APPOLOGIZE.
I do however would like to put this back into the question forum that I see a few responses that I posed to those that think a go around was the choice of the day and I do not agree.
I am the single pilot of an aircraft on final approach to a gravel strip thats about 3000 feet long. Obstructions are at the end and a big cold lake after that. I have normal approach and am in the flare when I hear whack whack whack (600 RPM) and go holy shit, the props are hitting the ground and the gears not down. Choice is to grind to a smooth stop or do I pour the coals to her (aircraft must be near the stall speed with flaps down?). Go around commences and my question was at the start, is that from my many hours of reading experience, when propellers bend from hitting the ground and engine crankcases which are sensitive to the equivalent of a sledgehammer on the top of a soft skull, is the safest choice not to just call it a day and let the aircraft come to a controlled sudden stop (complete with lots of damage) or scare the crap the out of everyone wondering if the blades are going to depart in a violent manner, are the engine mounts going to suddenly give out and are one or both engines going to calve in the downwind so I can put the gear down????
If the latter is the choice then I am giving notice and going back to selling pork rinds and potato chips.
I do however would like to put this back into the question forum that I see a few responses that I posed to those that think a go around was the choice of the day and I do not agree.
I am the single pilot of an aircraft on final approach to a gravel strip thats about 3000 feet long. Obstructions are at the end and a big cold lake after that. I have normal approach and am in the flare when I hear whack whack whack (600 RPM) and go holy shit, the props are hitting the ground and the gears not down. Choice is to grind to a smooth stop or do I pour the coals to her (aircraft must be near the stall speed with flaps down?). Go around commences and my question was at the start, is that from my many hours of reading experience, when propellers bend from hitting the ground and engine crankcases which are sensitive to the equivalent of a sledgehammer on the top of a soft skull, is the safest choice not to just call it a day and let the aircraft come to a controlled sudden stop (complete with lots of damage) or scare the crap the out of everyone wondering if the blades are going to depart in a violent manner, are the engine mounts going to suddenly give out and are one or both engines going to calve in the downwind so I can put the gear down????
If the latter is the choice then I am giving notice and going back to selling pork rinds and potato chips.
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Captain Big Bars
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It's really easy to give your expert opinion on a situation that you really had no part of. I'm really doubt though that he's sitting in the flare thinking, hmmm what's that noise. Oh shit that's the props I think the best decision would be to go around. It probably would be to late. I'm not going to say what I think happened though because like all of you I wasn't there.
Everyone is always such an expert untill it happens to them.
Everyone is always such an expert untill it happens to them.
Juice, I think you're right and I think most people here agree with you that putting her down is the correct course of action at that point. However, it's hard to blame the pilots for performing an overshoot at that point for several reasons: (a) We're trained from day one to go around if <i>anything</i> is wrong, so its a hard-wired reflex (b) The pilot may not realize his props have touched the ground - I've talked to one pilot who did the same thing and he said he realized the gear was up about exactly the same instant the props must have touched, because he didn't hear/feel the impact and he overshot right away (he only smoked about 1/4" - 1/2" off the end of each one). So yeah, you're right, putting her down is correct, but in the heat of the moment its hard to reason out a decision like that in a split second.
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Cat Driver
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Quote:
" (a) We're trained from day one to go around if <i>anything</i> is wrong, so its a hard-wired reflex (b) "
Hmmmm, what does that say about your training????
" (a) We're trained from day one to go around if <i>anything</i> is wrong, so its a hard-wired reflex (b) "
Hmmmm, what does that say about your training????
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
FOLKS, CAT DRIVER AND I AGREE, THIS IS NOT A TRAINING ISSUE NOR IS IT AN SOP ISSUE, IT IS A COMMON SENSE ISSUE.
How can one train for a gear up landing? how do you practice one? you cannot. All you can do is teach, train and use SOP's to PREVENT a gear up, but it is the actions AFTER that is of the most concern. Going around with known damage is stupid, stupid, stupid.
Knowing what to do and what not to do requires a conditioned response that comes from intimate knowledge of things mechanical and aeronautical which should reinforce common sense thinking.
It does not take a genius to figure out that if you touch down sans gear, you are going to damage something.
If you bang on something long enough and hard enough, it will break,
What do you do when it breaks?
Do you ignore the fact and pretend it did not happen?
Do you go to the document file and consult the holy grail SOP's?
Do you call the director of standards for his/her input?
Do you have a circle jerk to devise the best plan of action?
When something like this happens and you damage your airplane, you have to rely on experience, the experience of others and COMMON SENSE, something that was totally missed in this scenario.
Do not get me wrong about SOP's, I am a strong advocate of good SOP's. Good training and SOP's have and will continue to increase the level of safety and proficiency in our daily operations but the holy grail of SOP's will not replace carelessness, incompetance, inattention or ignorance. They will, in some cases, solidify the pilot decision making process but will not replace knowledge and common airplane skills. The whole purpose of SOP's needs some rethinking.
It sure appears to me, and I think it also appears to Cat Driver, that in the modern world, if you are not trained about an occurance, it does not exist. You cannot think for yourself, you should not make decisions all by youself, this requires a big circle jerk.
What happens to a piece of aluminum when you bend it cold and then apply a large stress to it? Can anyone hazard a guess? Has anyone read about the broken crankshafts and con rods in Lycoming engines? What about the internal workings of a propeller? Are they strong enough to withstand a large blow that comes from banging it on the runway? Is there something missing here? Like common sense!!!!
Now, lets all sit down and have one great big circle jerk and maybe we can come up with some answers. Cat and I don't need to join in because we already know what the answer is. We learned from the mistakes of others, because we cannot live long enough to make them all ourselves.
The only thing in favor of these pilots are that they are alive and they are not alone. Apparently this is a very common happening. We don't always hear about it because there are a bunch of pilots out there that have hoseshoes up their ass and did not kill thenselves or their passengers.
The only totally effective plan that I can caome up with is a bit drastic but it may work.
We need someone with a large turboprop airplane like an L188 with a full load of pax to do a gear up, overshoot and crash. The publicity will stick in our minds for many years.
Admittedly, that is not a practical plan so I have a better one. The next time you are in your companies monthly safety meeting, bring this subject up for debate. Maybe you will learn something that will save your life, because preventing a gear up landing has proven to be undoable. IMHO.
How can one train for a gear up landing? how do you practice one? you cannot. All you can do is teach, train and use SOP's to PREVENT a gear up, but it is the actions AFTER that is of the most concern. Going around with known damage is stupid, stupid, stupid.
Knowing what to do and what not to do requires a conditioned response that comes from intimate knowledge of things mechanical and aeronautical which should reinforce common sense thinking.
It does not take a genius to figure out that if you touch down sans gear, you are going to damage something.
If you bang on something long enough and hard enough, it will break,
What do you do when it breaks?
Do you ignore the fact and pretend it did not happen?
Do you go to the document file and consult the holy grail SOP's?
Do you call the director of standards for his/her input?
Do you have a circle jerk to devise the best plan of action?
When something like this happens and you damage your airplane, you have to rely on experience, the experience of others and COMMON SENSE, something that was totally missed in this scenario.
Do not get me wrong about SOP's, I am a strong advocate of good SOP's. Good training and SOP's have and will continue to increase the level of safety and proficiency in our daily operations but the holy grail of SOP's will not replace carelessness, incompetance, inattention or ignorance. They will, in some cases, solidify the pilot decision making process but will not replace knowledge and common airplane skills. The whole purpose of SOP's needs some rethinking.
It sure appears to me, and I think it also appears to Cat Driver, that in the modern world, if you are not trained about an occurance, it does not exist. You cannot think for yourself, you should not make decisions all by youself, this requires a big circle jerk.
What happens to a piece of aluminum when you bend it cold and then apply a large stress to it? Can anyone hazard a guess? Has anyone read about the broken crankshafts and con rods in Lycoming engines? What about the internal workings of a propeller? Are they strong enough to withstand a large blow that comes from banging it on the runway? Is there something missing here? Like common sense!!!!
Now, lets all sit down and have one great big circle jerk and maybe we can come up with some answers. Cat and I don't need to join in because we already know what the answer is. We learned from the mistakes of others, because we cannot live long enough to make them all ourselves.
The only thing in favor of these pilots are that they are alive and they are not alone. Apparently this is a very common happening. We don't always hear about it because there are a bunch of pilots out there that have hoseshoes up their ass and did not kill thenselves or their passengers.
The only totally effective plan that I can caome up with is a bit drastic but it may work.
We need someone with a large turboprop airplane like an L188 with a full load of pax to do a gear up, overshoot and crash. The publicity will stick in our minds for many years.
Admittedly, that is not a practical plan so I have a better one. The next time you are in your companies monthly safety meeting, bring this subject up for debate. Maybe you will learn something that will save your life, because preventing a gear up landing has proven to be undoable. IMHO.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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Cat Driver
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Oldtimer, I sometimes get so sick and tired of reading some of these comments that are posted here I feel like never ever reading anything a pilot posts again.
I don't have the faintest idea if the guy that posted this is pullinng our strings or if he is serious.
Quote:
" (a) We're trained from day one to go around if <i>anything</i> is wrong, so its a hard-wired reflex (b) "
If that is true I would not even consider trying to retrain such an individual because as he stated he has a hard-wired reflex and I would not train him for fear that some day he would do his hard wired reflex and I would feel responsible for the results.
Man if that is the way they are being trained aviation is doomed.
Cat
I don't have the faintest idea if the guy that posted this is pullinng our strings or if he is serious.
Quote:
" (a) We're trained from day one to go around if <i>anything</i> is wrong, so its a hard-wired reflex (b) "
If that is true I would not even consider trying to retrain such an individual because as he stated he has a hard-wired reflex and I would not train him for fear that some day he would do his hard wired reflex and I would feel responsible for the results.
Man if that is the way they are being trained aviation is doomed.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Floater:
This conversation has nothing to do with TC Floater......
Two comments.
(1) However are you suggesting that TC does not need a house cleaning and get rid of the ones that would never be accepted anywhere else in any job sector?
(2) And if you don't like reading my posts, that makes it mutual, as I find your constant mealy mouthed condoning of the few in TC that are a disgrase to the human race to be insulting to those of us who have been abused by TC for no reason other than we refused to be sodomized by some parasite that has the protection of a flawed system..
So go f.ck yourself floater.
Cat
This conversation has nothing to do with TC Floater......
Two comments.
(1) However are you suggesting that TC does not need a house cleaning and get rid of the ones that would never be accepted anywhere else in any job sector?
(2) And if you don't like reading my posts, that makes it mutual, as I find your constant mealy mouthed condoning of the few in TC that are a disgrase to the human race to be insulting to those of us who have been abused by TC for no reason other than we refused to be sodomized by some parasite that has the protection of a flawed system..
So go f.ck yourself floater.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Siddley Hawker
- Rank 11
- Posts: 3353
- Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:56 pm
- Location: 50.13N 66.17W
Put me in the column with Cat Driver and oldtimer. The guy driving that airplane was surely a ramblin' gamblin' man. After hitting the ground with the props, he gambled there was insufficient damage to both the engines and props to prevent a go-around, and he beat the odds. I hope he removed the golden horse shoe outta his ass and had it bronzed.
Awww cat...be nice now..I was referring to your earlier post where you said :sick and tired of reading some of these comments that are posted here by pilots.I believe instead of complaining all the time about transport,do something about it.In my 20 years of owning and flying for small 703 companies my dealings have been 95% to the good .There will be bad apples in any orginization.And as for f**king myself....no thanks 
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Cat Driver
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Floater you truly are dense, either that or you don't understand what my position on TC is.
For instance what would posess you to write this...
" I believe instead of complaining all the time about transport,do something about it. "
What is wrong with your ability to read?
For christ sake I have done more to try and expose the systemic corruption at the top of TC than anyone else in aviation. Who else do you know who went to the expense of collecting enough evidence against some the top managers in TC including the DGCA that is credible enough to have shown beyond any doubt they are morally deficient to the extreem.
So you have been in 703 operations for twenty years and in your opinion they are 95 % good..
Jeeses no wonder the aviation industry in Canada is so f.cked up with people like you who are satisfied with only 5% of the regulator being morally corrupt and do not obey the very laws that they are supposed to uphold.
Your attitude is why I don't fly in Canada anymore, I just can't understand Canadians...you deserve Martin and his band of crooks...and the corrupt ones at the top of TC.
Nothing would please me more than hearing someone like you got nailed by one of these parasites and fu.ked you over so you were unable to work in aviation.
Cat
For instance what would posess you to write this...
" I believe instead of complaining all the time about transport,do something about it. "
What is wrong with your ability to read?
For christ sake I have done more to try and expose the systemic corruption at the top of TC than anyone else in aviation. Who else do you know who went to the expense of collecting enough evidence against some the top managers in TC including the DGCA that is credible enough to have shown beyond any doubt they are morally deficient to the extreem.
So you have been in 703 operations for twenty years and in your opinion they are 95 % good..
Jeeses no wonder the aviation industry in Canada is so f.cked up with people like you who are satisfied with only 5% of the regulator being morally corrupt and do not obey the very laws that they are supposed to uphold.
Your attitude is why I don't fly in Canada anymore, I just can't understand Canadians...you deserve Martin and his band of crooks...and the corrupt ones at the top of TC.
Nothing would please me more than hearing someone like you got nailed by one of these parasites and fu.ked you over so you were unable to work in aviation.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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Check Pilot
- Rank 6
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- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 4:26 am
Holy Begeezus Cat,
I can't believe you are letting someone other than TC get to you. I'm not sure the last time I ever saw you respond to another guy like you did with FLOATER.
Please don't let that stuff get to you like that.
You'll pop a zort unless you ignore those kind of insults directed your way. You don't need that. The rest of the folks on the forum need you to stick around.
I can't believe you are letting someone other than TC get to you. I'm not sure the last time I ever saw you respond to another guy like you did with FLOATER.
Please don't let that stuff get to you like that.
You'll pop a zort unless you ignore those kind of insults directed your way. You don't need that. The rest of the folks on the forum need you to stick around.
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Cat Driver
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Ha, Ha, Haa, Check Pilot, the last thing on earth that would get to me is some unknown pushing my buttons here on Avcanada.. 
I just sometimes figure its better to give e'm some of their own medicine rather than be polite.
What is bothering me most now is I'm so f.ckin cold from working in a hangar all day with no heat I can't get a hard on so I have something to entertain myself with after I get off the computer.
Anyhow I'm off for home tomorrow and hopefully can stay there till spring.
Cat
I just sometimes figure its better to give e'm some of their own medicine rather than be polite.
What is bothering me most now is I'm so f.ckin cold from working in a hangar all day with no heat I can't get a hard on so I have something to entertain myself with after I get off the computer.
Anyhow I'm off for home tomorrow and hopefully can stay there till spring.
Cat
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
As you all can see, I'm not a big poster here, but I hang aroung a fair bit and like to read the posts. Once in awhile there is something interesting and informative which one can learn from or at least debate and think about which may make your daily routine safer.
I was not there, do not know the pilot or what happened and for that reason I am not going to critique his course of action. The one thing that bothers me is how quick everybody is to slam this guy for going around after he struck the props. What if he initiated the go around before the props hit and before he realized he actually hit them was already 50ft back in the air? Now an abort may not be the best course of action as you will be crash landing the airplane off the runway.
Just a thought, like I said I was not there and do not know what happened, and I suspect that no one else posting here really knows what happened either.
I was not there, do not know the pilot or what happened and for that reason I am not going to critique his course of action. The one thing that bothers me is how quick everybody is to slam this guy for going around after he struck the props. What if he initiated the go around before the props hit and before he realized he actually hit them was already 50ft back in the air? Now an abort may not be the best course of action as you will be crash landing the airplane off the runway.
Just a thought, like I said I was not there and do not know what happened, and I suspect that no one else posting here really knows what happened either.
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Captain Big Bars
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- Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2005 5:06 pm
