Recent WestJet ALPA video for all pilots

[cdnavater]

There was a restaurant charging 65.00 per head for Mothers Day brunch, as ridiculous as that is, the place was full,

Why is it ridiculous, when their costs have gone bananas and every restaurant got hammered during covid? Thats the price, why shouldn’t they max out what they can get on a holiday? Eating out cheap ain’t a right, either, and there is always McDonald’s.

As I said, I support the right to strike, to aggressively negotiate, that goes for all of us, aviation or not.

I’m renovating now, big one, long delayed, you wouldn’t believe the costs, but its my choice…..

I don’t begrudge them charging that at all, I find it ridiculous for 65.00 per person for a buffet so I don’t go, which is my point, people will either pay it or they won’t, it’s simple economics!
I paid 25.00 dollars for a burger and fries the other day, it was a fantastic burger but I can make the exact thing at home for less then half, my homemade burgers are also fantastic, so, I won’t be back to that restaurant.

[rookiepilot]

There was a restaurant charging 65.00 per head for Mothers Day brunch, as ridiculous as that is, the place was full,

Why is it ridiculous, when their costs have gone bananas and every restaurant got hammered during covid? Thats the price, why shouldn’t they max out what they can get on a holiday? Eating out cheap ain’t a right, either, and there is always McDonald’s.

As I said, I support the right to strike, to aggressively negotiate, that goes for all of us, aviation or not.

I’m renovating now, big one, long delayed, you wouldn’t believe the costs, but its my choice…..

I don’t begrudge them charging that at all, I find it ridiculous for 65.00 per person for a buffet so I don’t go, which is my point, people will either pay it or they won’t, it’s simple economics!
I paid 25.00 dollars for a burger and fries the other day, it was a fantastic burger but I can make the exact thing at home for less then half, my homemade burgers are also fantastic, so, I won’t be back to that restaurant.

You then don’t value your own labour cost in making your own burger.

The point you guys are rightly making applies to every other industry. Its why (if its really nice) a mother’s day brunch buffett at 65 is probably fair.

One of my contractors claims he needs to pay people 30 an hour to show up to cut grass for his landscaping business. No kidding.

[digits_]

I already showed you how at minimum a 10% wage increase across the board to all groups would add at minimum 2.5-3% to ticket prices

Even if we accept your data, then the 10% would cause a 2.5% increase on the airline fare part of the tickets. For short cheap flights that might be half of the ticket price. Even on longer flights the extra fees (which are not related to pilot salaries at all) make up a big chunk of the ticket price. But that would bring us closer to the 1.25-1.5% raise on a ticket. That translates into a couple to a few dollars per ticket.

[cdnavater]

Why is it ridiculous, when their costs have gone bananas and every restaurant got hammered during covid? Thats the price, why shouldn’t they max out what they can get on a holiday? Eating out cheap ain’t a right, either, and there is always McDonald’s.

As I said, I support the right to strike, to aggressively negotiate, that goes for all of us, aviation or not.

I’m renovating now, big one, long delayed, you wouldn’t believe the costs, but its my choice…..

I don’t begrudge them charging that at all, I find it ridiculous for 65.00 per person for a buffet so I don’t go, which is my point, people will either pay it or they won’t, it’s simple economics!
I paid 25.00 dollars for a burger and fries the other day, it was a fantastic burger but I can make the exact thing at home for less then half, my homemade burgers are also fantastic, so, I won’t be back to that restaurant.

You then don’t value your own labour cost in making your own burger.

The point you guys are rightly making applies to every other industry. Its why (if its really nice) a mother’s day brunch buffett at 65 is probably fair.

One of my contractors claims he needs to pay people 30 an hour to show up to cut grass for his landscaping business. No kidding.

I’m not a trained chef, so I only factored minimum wages, no tip, and I do my own dishes, really helps keep the costs down.
Seriously though, companies will charge what people are willing to pay, when that shifts, so to will the pricing.

[rookiepilot]

I don’t begrudge them charging that at all, I find it ridiculous for 65.00 per person for a buffet so I don’t go, which is my point, people will either pay it or they won’t, it’s simple economics!
I paid 25.00 dollars for a burger and fries the other day, it was a fantastic burger but I can make the exact thing at home for less then half, my homemade burgers are also fantastic, so, I won’t be back to that restaurant.

You then don’t value your own labour cost in making your own burger.

The point you guys are rightly making applies to every other industry. Its why (if its really nice) a mother’s day brunch buffett at 65 is probably fair.

One of my contractors claims he needs to pay people 30 an hour to show up to cut grass for his landscaping business. No kidding.

I’m not a trained chef, so I only factored minimum wages, no tip, and I do my own dishes, really helps keep the costs down.
Seriously though, companies will charge what people are willing to pay, when that shifts, so to will the pricing.

My favourite little casual restaurant nearby, after covid has been closing at 4pm every day, and is closed 2 days a week. Can’t find staff. I hear it everywhere. Only those little businesses that will pay sky high get staff, and then that gets passed on….

The real issue is housing costs.

[goingnowherefast]

Lol so many disgruntled pilots who instead of using facts just called names.

Told you don’t deserve a raise. All you need to do is show me why economically within The financials you need significant raises. Our market doesn’t support it. I’ve shown you and read airline financials and torn them apart in far more detail than I’ve listed.

Baseline you deserve 4pct. Anything more under current economics makes no sense financially.

Maybe you should spend some timing tearing inflation data apart because 4% doesn't even begin to cover our real wage decrease since the beginning of 2021. Inflation has been above 4% for the last 20 months.

Not just 2021, need to go back to pre-2001 and look at the inflation adjusted pay CUTs to the piloting profession in the last 23 years.

25 years of unscrupulous managers (not just WJ, but industry wide) have made the job into something fewer people want to do. We're not just competing within aviation for existing pilots. We're competing for high-school kids who are in the process of choosing a career. Currently they're being driven away from the profession because it's unappealing. Through COVID, I received more layoff notices than both my parents in their entire careers combined. I understand where I sit on management list of concerns. I'm an expense that us to be minimized and they don’t care one bit about me, my coworkers or our needs as people. 2020, 2008 and 2001 made that abundantly clear. Now the process works the other way. If pilots are just an expense to be minimized, then our incomes and working conditions are just a number to be maximized. Don't care about management's problems as they proved repeatedly that they don't care about ours. Maybe we can make the job into something a high-school kid wants to do so management stops complaining about the "pilot shortage" that they created.

[McKinley]

Lol so many disgruntled pilots who instead of using facts just called names.

Told you don’t deserve a raise. All you need to do is show me why economically within The financials you need significant raises. Our market doesn’t support it. I’ve shown you and read airline financials and torn them apart in far more detail than I’ve listed.

Baseline you deserve 4pct. Anything more under current economics makes no sense financially.

Maybe you should spend some timing tearing inflation data apart because 4% doesn't even begin to cover our real wage decrease since the beginning of 2021. Inflation has been above 4% for the last 20 months.

Not just 2021, need to go back to pre-2001 and look at the inflation adjusted pay CUTs to the piloting profession in the last 23 years.

25 years of unscrupulous managers (not just WJ, but industry wide) have made the job into something fewer people want to do. We're not just competing within aviation for existing pilots. We're competing for high-school kids who are in the process of choosing a career. Currently they're being driven away from the profession because it's unappealing. Through COVID, I received more layoff notices than both my parents in their entire careers combined. I understand where I sit on management list of concerns. I'm an expense that us to be minimized and they don’t care one bit about me, my coworkers or our needs as people. 2020, 2008 and 2001 made that abundantly clear. Now the process works the other way. If pilots are just an expense to be minimized, then our incomes and working conditions are just a number to be maximized. Don't care about management's problems as they proved repeatedly that they don't care about ours. Maybe we can make the job into something a high-school kid wants to do so management stops complaining about the "pilot shortage" that they created.

It’s quite frightening to see that we have a bunch of pilots who can’t think dialectically. Instead, we have a pilot group who thinks in black and white and that their perspective is king.

Unfortunately and fortunately,( depending on what side of the fence you’re sitting.) The company’s perspective is of equal value to yours. You can’t say you’re underpaid etc when there’s an opposing reality.

Also, You simply can’t use emotional arguments and say you’re overpaid. Why do we deserve to be paid more? What value are we going to create for the company?

The company does see us as overpaid liabilities..

Again, what is a livable salary commensurate with experience? What value are you creating? What value will the company receive from this increased pay?

“ the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.“ F Scott Fitzgerald.

Therefore, we are both overpaid and underpaid simultaneously.

Eg. Reality is entirely subjective .. and depends on the filters in which you view the world.

[lostaviator]

Lol so many disgruntled pilots who instead of using facts just called names.

Told you don’t deserve a raise. All you need to do is show me why economically within The financials you need significant raises. Our market doesn’t support it. I’ve shown you and read airline financials and torn them apart in far more detail than I’ve listed.

Baseline you deserve 4pct. Anything more under current economics makes no sense financially.

Maybe you should spend some timing tearing inflation data apart because 4% doesn't even begin to cover our real wage decrease since the beginning of 2021. Inflation has been above 4% for the last 20 months.

Not just 2021, need to go back to pre-2001 and look at the inflation adjusted pay CUTs to the piloting profession in the last 23 years.

25 years of unscrupulous managers (not just WJ, but industry wide) have made the job into something fewer people want to do. We're not just competing within aviation for existing pilots. We're competing for high-school kids who are in the process of choosing a career. Currently they're being driven away from the profession because it's unappealing. Through COVID, I received more layoff notices than both my parents in their entire careers combined. I understand where I sit on management list of concerns. I'm an expense that us to be minimized and they don’t care one bit about me, my coworkers or our needs as people. 2020, 2008 and 2001 made that abundantly clear. Now the process works the other way. If pilots are just an expense to be minimized, then our incomes and working conditions are just a number to be maximized. Don't care about management's problems as they proved repeatedly that they don't care about ours. Maybe we can make the job into something a high-school kid wants to do so management stops complaining about the "pilot shortage" that they created.

I know, I thought I would start with easy numbers for the Accountant It's interesting to see someone argue the spot rate of inflation is all someone is entitled to. Totally ignoring what has occurred in the past months/years leading up to the current rate.

We can look at this another way too. The real wage of some of our pilots has decreased 7% over the course of our 4 year contract. That includes the annual increase. We need a 7% raise just to make us equal to 2019 dollars at this point.

[Canadaflyer46]

Maybe you should spend some timing tearing inflation data apart because 4% doesn't even begin to cover our real wage decrease since the beginning of 2021. Inflation has been above 4% for the last 20 months.

Not just 2021, need to go back to pre-2001 and look at the inflation adjusted pay CUTs to the piloting profession in the last 23 years.

25 years of unscrupulous managers (not just WJ, but industry wide) have made the job into something fewer people want to do. We're not just competing within aviation for existing pilots. We're competing for high-school kids who are in the process of choosing a career. Currently they're being driven away from the profession because it's unappealing. Through COVID, I received more layoff notices than both my parents in their entire careers combined. I understand where I sit on management list of concerns. I'm an expense that us to be minimized and they don’t care one bit about me, my coworkers or our needs as people. 2020, 2008 and 2001 made that abundantly clear. Now the process works the other way. If pilots are just an expense to be minimized, then our incomes and working conditions are just a number to be maximized. Don't care about management's problems as they proved repeatedly that they don't care about ours. Maybe we can make the job into something a high-school kid wants to do so management stops complaining about the "pilot shortage" that they created.

I know, I thought I would start with easy numbers for the Accountant It's interesting to see someone argue the spot rate of inflation is all someone is entitled to. Totally ignoring what has occurred in the past months/years leading up to the current rate.

We can look at this another way too. The real wage of some of our pilots has decreased 7% over the course of our 4 year contract. We need a 7% raise just to make us equal to 2019 dollars at this point.

When you consider inflation since the start of our last contract, and also the loss of profit share (the company recently said that’s a thing of their past due to the employees having to pay for management @#$!-ups like the Xmas IT IROP and paying Sunwing’s $300m debts off), we’re down 15% since CA1 started. We need a 15% pay rise just to match where we started.

[lostaviator]

Not just 2021, need to go back to pre-2001 and look at the inflation adjusted pay CUTs to the piloting profession in the last 23 years.

25 years of unscrupulous managers (not just WJ, but industry wide) have made the job into something fewer people want to do. We're not just competing within aviation for existing pilots. We're competing for high-school kids who are in the process of choosing a career. Currently they're being driven away from the profession because it's unappealing. Through COVID, I received more layoff notices than both my parents in their entire careers combined. I understand where I sit on management list of concerns. I'm an expense that us to be minimized and they don’t care one bit about me, my coworkers or our needs as people. 2020, 2008 and 2001 made that abundantly clear. Now the process works the other way. If pilots are just an expense to be minimized, then our incomes and working conditions are just a number to be maximized. Don't care about management's problems as they proved repeatedly that they don't care about ours. Maybe we can make the job into something a high-school kid wants to do so management stops complaining about the "pilot shortage" that they created.

I know, I thought I would start with easy numbers for the Accountant It's interesting to see someone argue the spot rate of inflation is all someone is entitled to. Totally ignoring what has occurred in the past months/years leading up to the current rate.

We can look at this another way too. The real wage of some of our pilots has decreased 7% over the course of our 4 year contract. We need a 7% raise just to make us equal to 2019 dollars at this point.

When you consider inflation since the start of our last contract, and also the loss of profit share (the company recently said that’s a thing of their past due to the employees having to pay for management @#$!-ups like the Xmas IT IROP and paying Sunwing’s $300m debts off), we’re down 15% since CA1 started. We need a 15% pay rise just to match where we started.

Yes. Good point. I was using nominal /hr dollars because the Accountant seems so set on asking for facts. I figured they couldn't argue hard numbers easily found on internal sites. But I 100% agree with you. Big picture we are worse off than we were Jan 1 2019.

[Mach1]

It’s quite frightening to see that we have a bunch of pilots who can’t think dialectically. Instead, we have a pilot group who thinks in black and white and that their perspective is king.

Unfortunately and fortunately,( depending on what side of the fence you’re sitting.) The company’s perspective is of equal value to yours. You can’t say you’re underpaid etc when there’s an opposing reality.

Also, You simply can’t use emotional arguments and say you’re overpaid. Why do we deserve to be paid more? What value are we going to create for the company?

The company does see us as overpaid liabilities..

Again, what is a livable salary commensurate with experience? What value are you creating? What value will the company receive from this increased pay?

“ the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.“ F Scott Fitzgerald.

Therefore, we are both overpaid and underpaid simultaneously.

Eg. Reality is entirely subjective .. and depends on the filters in which you view the world.

Isn't Dialectics an L'Ron Hubbard book? Now that's frightening.

No one here is making emotional arguments. The market is what the market is. There is a global shortage of pilots. I've been hearing about this coming shortage my whole life and here it is. I'm personally astounded with how quickly it came on and I wish I were 20 right now to ride the wave. But I'm not. The fact is that companies have had an upper hand in wage suppression for roughly 40 years now. The pendulum has swung far and fast. The executives need to learn to embrace change lest they be wiped out trying to hold on to the old ways. Things like "livable salary" are meaningless phrases. You get what your market value says you can get, what is liveable has never been a concern to companies in the past (I have worked for some pretty shit salaries in my career and no none was worried if I could live on those salaries). So, you can put that card back in the deck right now. CEO's don't work for "Liveable salaries" and neither should I. They get what they negotiate and they negotiate hard. That is all we are doing... unfortunately for us, it's a bit more public in both the fact we are negotiating and the results of those negotiations.

We are not overpaid. It is black and white, grey is for the cowards. Grey is for where the company likes to blur the lines to confuse and muddle you so that you think, "Hey, maybe I am not worth it. Maybe I don't deserve it." The company is very much black and white and that's why we are as well. I am worth it. I do deserve it. If a guy sitting in an office or out playing golf with his other executive friends is making $5 million a year, I am absolutely worth every penny he's worth.

[cdnavater]

Maybe you should spend some timing tearing inflation data apart because 4% doesn't even begin to cover our real wage decrease since the beginning of 2021. Inflation has been above 4% for the last 20 months.

Not just 2021, need to go back to pre-2001 and look at the inflation adjusted pay CUTs to the piloting profession in the last 23 years.

25 years of unscrupulous managers (not just WJ, but industry wide) have made the job into something fewer people want to do. We're not just competing within aviation for existing pilots. We're competing for high-school kids who are in the process of choosing a career. Currently they're being driven away from the profession because it's unappealing. Through COVID, I received more layoff notices than both my parents in their entire careers combined. I understand where I sit on management list of concerns. I'm an expense that us to be minimized and they don’t care one bit about me, my coworkers or our needs as people. 2020, 2008 and 2001 made that abundantly clear. Now the process works the other way. If pilots are just an expense to be minimized, then our incomes and working conditions are just a number to be maximized. Don't care about management's problems as they proved repeatedly that they don't care about ours. Maybe we can make the job into something a high-school kid wants to do so management stops complaining about the "pilot shortage" that they created.

It’s quite frightening to see that we have a bunch of pilots who can’t think dialectically. Instead, we have a pilot group who thinks in black and white and that their perspective is king.

Unfortunately and fortunately,( depending on what side of the fence you’re sitting.) The company’s perspective is of equal value to yours. You can’t say you’re underpaid etc when there’s an opposing reality.

Also, You simply can’t use emotional arguments and say you’re overpaid. Why do we deserve to be paid more? What value are we going to create for the company?

The company does see us as overpaid liabilities..

Again, what is a livable salary commensurate with experience? What value are you creating? What value will the company receive from this increased pay?

“ the ability to hold two opposing ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.“ F Scott Fitzgerald.

Therefore, we are both overpaid and underpaid simultaneously.

Eg. Reality is entirely subjective .. and depends on the filters in which you view the world.

I noticed you didn’t answer my previous questions, I get it, they were tough questions but are you so beaten that you believe our salaries will break the company. You are advocating for not rocking the boat, your mentality is why we are being held down.
I too have beaten dog syndrome but what part of the dialectical reasons are you missing, what value are we to a company that doesn’t value us, they will find themselves not filling the front seats. They have not perfected AI yet and still need pilots, again, if the airlines could just turn over a rock and find a fresh supply of you, they would’ve already.
The only Jazz Captains making 165,000-200,000 are senior trainers who are doing significant OT and no one is coming to this profession and making 100,000 after a year, if they are it’s because they can’t find any to do it for less, not because they feel it’s deserved.
Eg; I hear SkyNorth is paying medevac Captains upwards of 230,000/yr, I guarantee you B and G would pay them 50,000/yr if they had enough applicants willing to do it, this is not due to goodwill, it’s supply and demand.
Now, if you’re not helping the profession, you’re hindering it, please leave the Jazz contract out of this conversation it’s been hashed out many times!

[Red_Comet]

I'm currently a hobbyist pilot with a day job in a totally unrelated industry, but every time I've gotten the itch to go flying full time, reality always drags me back down to 0 AGL.

I cannot believe some of the absurd statements I'm reading here regarding pilot compensation.

As an outsider with no dog in this fight, I can honestly tell you that I was utterly shocked to read that pilots who are responsible for hundreds of lives are getting paid less than the vast majority of trained professionals in Canada. This is utterly absurd and inexplicable. The only reason this happens is because pilots are browbeaten into believing the utter nonsense spewed by the usual suspects (MBA types and their minions).

One quick example: pilots have an outsized degree of responsibility, far more so than doctors or any other single professional. Their training costs just as much as doctors, yet they are responsible for far more lives on a per-hour basis. Doctors are employed by the government, and compensated according to their skills, training and education. Pilots are no less skilled than doctors, and are at the very least equally responsible for the safety of the public on a daily basis. Yet they are compensated so poorly in comparison as to be shocking. The only difference? Pilots have to work for for-profit corporations rather than directly for the government, so they get scalped when they have no bargaining power. These were hard learned lessons from the 20th century that we've forgotten after many decades of great wages as a result of hard work by organized labour during that time.

But alas, all the usual hedge funder/MBA arguments are being rolled out here and sound very familiar to me as a result of my non-flying career. MBAs are good at one thing: convincing everyone they deserve every dollar of profit, while employees deserve the bare minimum (ideally none). This is standard fare in every industry run by MBA types, and without fail, they run company after company into the ground. Look at the state of American engineering firms after a few decades of MBAs. The US (and Canada) is now rapidly de-industrializing, having worshipped at the altar of Harvard Business School MBAs and Wall Street hedge funds. These industries aren't coming back anytime soon, because the MBAs gutted them for all their built up value and then sold them off for scraps.

Flying is a highly technical, complex engineering discipline. At the end of the day, airlines cannot be sustainably run by MBA types whose sole purpose is to extract all value from a company and sell the husk to the highest bidder. Successful engineering companies are seeing a rapid shift away from MBA types to solid technical leadership (look at Intel, AMD, Nvidia, Tesla, SpaceX, etc.).

The era of the parasitic MBA boss is coming to an end. Good riddance.