Agreement in Principle reached

[Bede]

No. System wide rebid apparently.

Ah, so Swoop Captains won't be able to hold a Captain position anymore.

Neither will most of the Sunwing Captains. Bummer for them, they won't get to vote on this.

Please stop trying to stir up a hornets nest. You have no idea how mergers work.

[MorePower!]

23.5% raise over 4 years

Plus

19.1% "wsp", of which 9.1% is added to the pay scale, 10% added to the account. With 0% pilot contribution.

Plus other good stuff.

Not bad.

How did you come up with 19.1%?

According to the summary, the WSP will be 10%. Of that 10% wsp 9.1% would be added to the hourly rate. That works out to 0.91%. So 2 or 3 dollars an hour on top of the average 15.5 increase.

They are written as two separate items in the summary.

So 9.1% will go on top of hourly wages
And another 10% added to our Manulife account.

For a rough total of 20% with 0 match from us.

Which may actually be a net positive because the 10% will yield a higher amount from our hourly rate with the general 23.5% raises and the 9.1% added on top of the hourly rate.

The road show will help us understand this more, I would obviously like to see the pay scales. But I think this is quite nice and really improves take home. You will save more than the current 20% yields you, with out having to put up 20% of your pay and lock it away. If you have the discipline.

[Bede]

Does that “15.5% average increase” take into account lifting all the swoop guys up to mainline wages?

No.

But this deal does seem like a surrender and tacit agreement by the union that Canadian pilots don’t deserve and won’t be getting close to our US counterparts.

I disagree. Is it the same as US wages? No, but it's a good step in that direction.

[Canpilot7]

Lots of important gains in there, but like most I would be a bit dissapointed with just inflation raises. Hope the folks at westjet like it more than I do

[truecolours]

I felt a little let down when I first read the summary. All this talk about closing the gap and then we get inflation? There was no closing of the gap here.

That being said. It does check off all the other boxes including the most important - scope.

I'll make my final decision after the road show. I am curious to hear what led them to abandon the gap closing mission in that 11th hour.

Going to 10% WSP doesn't concern me. You now have the option of investing that money where ever you like through your own brokerage vs manulife.

[rudder]

It will be interesting to see what an ‘all-in’ comparison sheet of CDN carriers looks like with the WJ TA details.

‘All-in’ would include pay, company paid retirement contributions, and any other ‘pluses’ that are directly $$ calculated (ESOP matching or any other mandatory contributions by the company on behalf of the pilot employee). A negative in this calculation would be any benefit premiums paid by the pilot.

AC pilots should be watching closely. It should not be about matching, it should be about exceeding.

[Canpilot7]

It will be interesting to see what an ‘all-in’ comparison sheet of CDN carriers looks like with the WJ TA details.

‘All-in’ would include pay, company paid retirement contributions, and any other ‘pluses’ that are directly $$ calculated (ESOP matching or any other mandatory contributions by the company on behalf of the pilot employee). A negative in this calculation would be any benefit premiums paid by the pilot.

AC pilots should be watching closely. It should not be about matching, it should be about exceeding.

With what is already in the AC contract, I can't imagine they'll have a hard time beating this raise. I'd assume both company and union have numbers higher than this already.

[rudder]

It will be interesting to see what an ‘all-in’ comparison sheet of CDN carriers looks like with the WJ TA details.

‘All-in’ would include pay, company paid retirement contributions, and any other ‘pluses’ that are directly $$ calculated (ESOP matching or any other mandatory contributions by the company on behalf of the pilot employee). A negative in this calculation would be any benefit premiums paid by the pilot.

AC pilots should be watching closely. It should not be about matching, it should be about exceeding.

With what is already in the AC contract, I can't imagine they'll have a hard time beating this raise. I'd assume both company and union have numbers higher than this already.

Agreed. One can only presume that the AC pilots will be aiming for top scale NB CA $300/hr+ and top scale WB CA $400/hr+ (including overrides).

Also factored in must be that AC pilots do contribute to pension, but do not pay benefit premiums.

[Canpilot7]

One thought just occured to me: with the company and union saying how far apart the groups were starting negotiations.... What was WestJet offering in the proposals that DIDNT get approved

[Fanblade]

It will be interesting to see what an ‘all-in’ comparison sheet of CDN carriers looks like with the WJ TA details.

‘All-in’ would include pay, company paid retirement contributions, and any other ‘pluses’ that are directly $$ calculated (ESOP matching or any other mandatory contributions by the company on behalf of the pilot employee). A negative in this calculation would be any benefit premiums paid by the pilot.

AC pilots should be watching closely. It should not be about matching, it should be about exceeding.

With what is already in the AC contract, I can't imagine they'll have a hard time beating this raise. I'd assume both company and union have numbers higher than this already.

The union does. The company thinks the 2% raise we are about to blow up is great value for us.

This whole strike scenario will replay once again within the next 12 months.

As Rudder pointed out. We need to keep besting each other.

[BTD]

23.5% raise over 4 years

Plus

19.1% "wsp", of which 9.1% is added to the pay scale, 10% added to the account. With 0% pilot contribution.

Plus other good stuff.

Not bad.

How did you come up with 19.1%?

According to the summary, the WSP will be 10%. Of that 10% wsp 9.1% would be added to the hourly rate. That works out to 0.91%. So 2 or 3 dollars an hour on top of the average 15.5 increase.

They are written as two separate items in the summary.

So 9.1% will go on top of hourly wages
And another 10% added to our Manulife account.

For a rough total of 20% with 0 match from us.

Which may actually be a net positive because the 10% will yield a higher amount from our hourly rate with the general 23.5% raises and the 9.1% added on top of the hourly rate.

The road show will help us understand this more, I would obviously like to see the pay scales. But I think this is quite nice and really improves take home. You will save more than the current 20% yields you, with out having to put up 20% of your pay and lock it away. If you have the discipline.

I hope your interpretation is correct and mine is wrong.

[Realitychex]

Another interesting way of looking at the 400 million / 4 years, is that it would roughtly add about 2 dollar per ticket.

100 000 000 CAD / (700 flights per day * 365 days) / 180 passengers = 2.17 CAD per passenger per flight

That would be a solid argument if pilot costs were the sole cost driver at an airline.

They aren’t, and not by a country mile.

It’s the $2.17 here, then another $2.17 there, then $1.50 here, then 50 cents here etc etc then oil jumps to $100 bbl, then the airports all decide to increase AIF’s to $35 a departure and all of a sudden fares have to increase $25 which further destimulates the market.

The current insatiable demand for travel will not last forever.

I’ve seen the 2 page exec summary. It strikes me as something everyone should be able to live with.

Time to move on and get ‘er done.

[Chelsea Handler]

Another interesting way of looking at the 400 million / 4 years, is that it would roughtly add about 2 dollar per ticket.

100 000 000 CAD / (700 flights per day * 365 days) / 180 passengers = 2.17 CAD per passenger per flight

That would be a solid argument if pilot costs were the sole cost driver at an airline.

They aren’t, and not by a country mile.

It’s the $2.17 here, then another $2.17 there, then $1.50 here, then 50 cents here etc etc then oil jumps to $100 bbl, then the airports all decide to increase AIF’s to $35 a departure and all of a sudden fares have to increase $25 which further destimulates the market.

The current insatiable demand for travel will not last forever.

I’ve seen the 2 page exec summary. It strikes me as something everyone should be able to live with.

Time to move on and get ‘er done.

The cost of just about everything has gone up significantly except exceptions such as cell phone plans and Air travel.

You can still fly across this country on 4 hour flights for under 500 round trip, which is what people paid 20 years ago. It's time for the reality check for passengers. Time for them to pay up as cheap travel is ending. Time for ticket prices to climb 50 percent just the same as gas, vehicle costs, food, building supplies etc have all done. People are paying 20k for 6 year old corolla with 150k km on them. You think paying a couple hundred more on a ticket YYZ to YVR return is to much? People will complain, but they will pay. If they want a deal on tickets, we want the same bargain on everything we buy.

[Winnikegger]

Another interesting way of looking at the 400 million / 4 years, is that it would roughtly add about 2 dollar per ticket.

100 000 000 CAD / (700 flights per day * 365 days) / 180 passengers = 2.17 CAD per passenger per flight

That would be a solid argument if pilot costs were the sole cost driver at an airline.

They aren’t, and not by a country mile.

It’s the $2.17 here, then another $2.17 there, then $1.50 here, then 50 cents here etc etc then oil jumps to $100 bbl, then the airports all decide to increase AIF’s to $35 a departure and all of a sudden fares have to increase $25 which further destimulates the market.

The current insatiable demand for travel will not last forever.

I’ve seen the 2 page exec summary. It strikes me as something everyone should be able to live with.

Time to move on and get ‘er done.

If this guy is a 'Yes'

That should be a huge red flag

[Blackdog0301]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal... But did they really think they could have a rebid AND significantly narrow the gap in wages? Not a chance in hell. They're getting what they asked for in exchange for lower pay. Good job guys.

[RockSalty]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal... But did they really think they could have a rebid AND significantly narrow the gap in wages? Not a chance in hell. They're getting what they asked for in exchange for lower pay. Good job guys.

The only ones who would be upset about a rebid are swoop captains that won’t be holding their direct entry left seat now that it’s not among the worst paid 737 drivers in the world. Why should a January 2023 hire hold YYZ skipper when there are mainline guys in yyz that have been waiting a decade for their left seat?

[Blackdog0301]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal... But did they really think they could have a rebid AND significantly narrow the gap in wages? Not a chance in hell. They're getting what they asked for in exchange for lower pay. Good job guys.

The only ones who would be upset about a rebid are swoop captains that won’t be holding their direct entry left seat now that it’s not among the worst paid 737 drivers in the world. Why should a January 2023 hire hold YYZ skipper when there are mainline guys in yyz that have been waiting a decade for their left seat?

I'm not disagreeing with the logic behind it. But the union made very clear that a rebid was a line in the sand. It benefits a small minority of senior FO's. Maybe 50 of them. And everyone else will be paid slightly less over the next 4 years to accommodate their needs. Just saying.

EDIT: OK maybe slightly more than 50. But not even close to a majority

[Crewbunk]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal.

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

“No bump, no flush” is a common provision of any seniority integration. So common, it may well be in the labour code now. In all the seniority integrations of which I’ve been a part, (too many to mention) I’ve never seen an example where one can be bumped from an existing position.

The only way I can see it happening, is if the “Swoop Captain” and “Sunwing Captain” positions are deemed to no longer exist, even though the flying does. Tough sell and I can see long expensive court battles resulting.

[RippleRock]

Another interesting way of looking at the 400 million / 4 years, is that it would roughtly add about 2 dollar per ticket.

100 000 000 CAD / (700 flights per day * 365 days) / 180 passengers = 2.17 CAD per passenger per flight

That would be a solid argument if pilot costs were the sole cost driver at an airline.

They aren’t, and not by a country mile.

It’s the $2.17 here, then another $2.17 there, then $1.50 here, then 50 cents here etc etc then oil jumps to $100 bbl, then the airports all decide to increase AIF’s to $35 a departure and all of a sudden fares have to increase $25 which further destimulates the market.

The current insatiable demand for travel will not last forever.

I’ve seen the 2 page exec summary. It strikes me as something everyone should be able to live with.

Time to move on and get ‘er done.

You are not doing your company "handlers" one bit of good commenting on here. You're "get 'er done" comment is a colossal red flag.

Like Lt. Kaffee, this guy is an ACPA schill and has a long record of "lowering expectations".

[Blackdog0301]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal.

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

That's exactly what would happen. I'm not someone who is affected by this move one way or another. But if I put myself in their shoes, they filled positions that everyone else refused to fill. Why should they be punished for doing work all the other captain elegible FO's refused to do? If they had filled them themselves, a rebid wouldn't be necessary, and everyone would be making the same with this contract. Instead the rest of the pilot group is paying for this rebid by being paid less for the next 4 years. Some will disagree with this reasoning, and that's fine. Just one opinion

[DanWEC]

Congrats on gains, but to take another perspective, how much of the improvement is simply removing downward progress or concessions made over the years instead?

Scope is a big one, all that's doing is stopping the backslide- not giving any actual new improvements.

What about any of the other conditions? I'm not very familiar with the historical year-to-year contract changes at WJ.

Once you discount these items that are just brought back from previous reductions, how much is new?

[lostaviator]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal.

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

“No bump, no flush” is a common provision of any seniority integration. So common, it may well be in the labour code now. In all the seniority integrations of which I’ve been a part, (too many to mention) I’ve never seen an example where one can be bumped from an existing position.

The only way I can see it happening, is if the “Swoop Captain” and “Sunwing Captain” positions are deemed to no longer exist, even though the flying does. Tough sell and I can see long expensive court battles resulting.

It’s actually quite simple. If Swoop doesn’t exist anymore, their position doesn’t exist anymore. And there’s a process for dealing with positions that don’t exist anymore. A displacement bid. Which is a system wide re-bid.

Plus they are pay protected. What a win! Less responsibility and you aren’t going to make any less. Someone must really have 5 bar syndrome if this bothers them.

[Anonymouse]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal.

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

“No bump, no flush” is a common provision of any seniority integration. So common, it may well be in the labour code now. In all the seniority integrations of which I’ve been a part, (too many to mention) I’ve never seen an example where one can be bumped from an existing position.

The only way I can see it happening, is if the “Swoop Captain” and “Sunwing Captain” positions are deemed to no longer exist, even though the flying does. Tough sell and I can see long expensive court battles resulting.

It’s actually quite simple. If Swoop doesn’t exist anymore, their position doesn’t exist anymore. And there’s a process for dealing with positions that don’t exist anymore. A displacement bid. Which is a system wide re-bid.

Plus they are pay protected. What a win! Less responsibility and you aren’t going to make any less. Someone must really have 5 bar syndrome if this bothers them.

Are they pay protected? And to what level, their current income or the income they would have on this new agreement if they were to keep their captain position?

Honestly I'm not sure what the better solution is, senior FOs who have been waiting a decade for upgrade do deserve to be captains, but a demotion for swoop captains doesn't seem particularly fair either, even with pay protection. It's not about 5 bad syndrome, people work decades to become captains of a jet that size, it's about more than just pay.

[lostaviator]

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

“No bump, no flush” is a common provision of any seniority integration. So common, it may well be in the labour code now. In all the seniority integrations of which I’ve been a part, (too many to mention) I’ve never seen an example where one can be bumped from an existing position.

The only way I can see it happening, is if the “Swoop Captain” and “Sunwing Captain” positions are deemed to no longer exist, even though the flying does. Tough sell and I can see long expensive court battles resulting.

It’s actually quite simple. If Swoop doesn’t exist anymore, their position doesn’t exist anymore. And there’s a process for dealing with positions that don’t exist anymore. A displacement bid. Which is a system wide re-bid.

Plus they are pay protected. What a win! Less responsibility and you aren’t going to make any less. Someone must really have 5 bar syndrome if this bothers them.

Are they pay protected? And to what level, their current income or the income they would have on this new agreement if they were to keep their captain position?

Honestly I'm not sure what the better solution is, senior FOs who have been waiting a decade for upgrade do deserve to be captains, but a demotion for swoop captains doesn't seem particularly fair either, even with pay protection. It's not about 5 bad syndrome, people work decades to become captains of a jet that size, it's about more than just pay.

I don’t know what the pay protection will look like but considering mainline Fo/s already make more than a swoop captain, they will be just fine.

Another way to look at the issue. Every one of them joined after it was determined wj/swoop were common employer and on the same seniority list. Every one of them knew they were holding a spot out of seniority.

[rudder]

For those keeping score….. the AA pilot TA has a top NB CA rate of US$392 in 2026. Add another 18% company contribution to the 401k and it will be US$463 ‘all-in’.

Don’t want to post the WB CA rates. It will be too distressing for everybody north of the 49th parallel.

We aren’t the pirates of the North Atlantic. We are the pirates of North America.