AIP is dogshit

[Chelsea Handler]

Sorry but are we seriously supposed to vote yes to a 15 percent wage increase in these times? This AIP just represents where we should have been at in 2019 and we should be another 30 percent on top of this.

15 percent more for perdiems? Are you kidding? Food is up 50 percent while on the road.

Easiest no vote, send this back to the drawing board. I'd rather be on strike. Looking forward to when this is turned down by more than our 84 percent vote to strike. At first glance you may think this was pretty good, but let this sink in that you will still be 80 percent behind US pilots if you vote yes to this. The gap only closed 20 percent.

[Blueontop]

+1

[BTD]

Can someone clarify how the 9.1% WSp added to rates works. Does that mean effectively a 24% uplift or is it some other breakdown or incentive?

[brokeflapoperator]

There's no way we went thru all that gassing up for 15% right.... Curious how that spreads out since I thought we had 400 mil. Math ain't mathing here... The WSP got worse too. Went from 20% free money to 10%... EASY NO!

[Ash Ketchum]

I thought that WestJet FOs would start at 100K and captains would get a 30-40% bump to come closer to the US. This looks a bit depressing looking from the outside to be honest.

[Bede]

You need to look at this CA in it's entirety and you're only looking at pay rates. This checks off all the highest priorities that we wanted (higher take home pay, scope provisions, etc). The argument was always that we have good T4 income, but our take home pay sucks. Now you're playing a bait and are worried about T4 income (which will increase by a good .).

[Bede]

15 percent more for perdiems? Are you kidding? Food is up 50 percent while on the road.

Tax free perdiems maximums are set by the federal government. You can't just increase tax free per diems by 50% without incurring tax implications

I'd rather be on strike.

I take it you've never been on strike. Do you know anyone who has? Ask them what they thought was accomplished and if they were better off following the strike.

[Bede]

There's no way we went thru all that gassing up for 15% right.... Curious how that spreads out since I thought we had 400 mil. Math ain't mathing here...

Let's start with getting rid of LOU2 and a rebid. That's a $50M item. All those ex-Swoop captain positions will finally be in the hands of our senior FO's who will be making ~$280/hr as opposed to $105/hr.

The WSP got worse too. Went from 20% free money to 10%... EASY NO!

Sorry, everyone was demanding that they should take 10% of the WSP and roll it into payrates. That's what happened. Had they left the 10% in it would have done nothing to address our take home pay issue. You can't bait and switch the NC and ask for something and then complain when they get it for you.

[Chelsea Handler]

We gave up lots of potential gains just to bring swoop back. These are not gains this is just taking back what we lost. It's a no from me unless I see substantial increases above this AIP. I think we all need to send an overwhelming no, and demand that we are working towards a North American standard contract. We won't have delta wages but we sure as hell need to close the gap more than this.

15.5.
3
3
2.5

Needs to change to

15
15
15
5

This would put our new hires at 100k USD in 2026. Then we can evaluate going forward what's really the government's inflation plan and see if we are ok with 2 percent a year after that on next contract. Not asking for the moon, just asking in 4 years work towards being closer to what our peers make flying same planes on the same routes.

[BrokenChicken]

Will need to see the pay scales, but as it stands, this AIP is a hard no for this hombre.

Hats? Seriously? Negotiating capital burned on hats?

[Canpilot7]

Like I said in another thread, hopefully this is something the folks at westjet like.

Selfishly for the rest of the industry, I'd like to see WAY more new money than a measly $400 million considering some of that is swoop which should've been captured with scope clauses before it happened. This doesn't close the gap - it widens it. Before the last round of US raises, the gap was just unacceptable but then they got 30%+ pay raises. 15% means the gap grows this year and then likely grows for 4 subsequent years.

$400 million in new money just isn't probably the big number the industry was hoping for with everyone rowing in the same direction.

[QKZXKV]

IF this is really the case, all of you who I've seen on socialist media post about "congrats ALPA we did it" or something along those lines... I'd like to see what you think about this disappointment.

Again that's an IF... I obviously have no firsthand access to this AIP.

[lownslow]

Let's start with getting rid of LOU2 and a rebid. That's a $50M item.

That seems a lot more like an already made sound commercial decision that got packaged as a bargaining chip.

[rudder]

Let's start with getting rid of LOU2 and a rebid. That's a $50M item.

That seems a lot more like an already made sound commercial decision that got packaged as a bargaining chip.

No different than the rabbit hole that ACPA went down with Rouge pay scales/WAWCON and WB freight rates.

Eliminating prior concessions always costs the bargaining unit some of its negotiating capital.

[Dockjock]

Yep this is ACPA 2012-2019. Undoing all the stuff they did to us in TA/Protecting Air Services Act. So much to undo in our collective contracts, 30 years of austerity can’t all be undone in one fell “swoop.”

[elgordo777]

WestJet pilots lost to management. ALPA's got outsmarted, as it always seems to be in Canada. Vote NO, try to scrape out anything else you can. Very disappointing.

[thrust set]

Simple question :
Is the reported wages
F/O 105/hr
Captains 285-305( yr 4 ) hr

[Greasy Greaser]

You need to look at this CA in it's entirety and you're only looking at pay rates. This checks off all the highest priorities that we wanted (higher take home pay, scope provisions, etc). The argument was always that we have good T4 income, but our take home pay sucks. Now you're playing a bait and are worried about T4 income (which will increase by a good .).

You are 100% correct.

Still waiting for the CA obviously but this is passing, just vocal minority screaming again. Huge win with LOU2 gone and language (if CA confirms this)

We could have $400/hr pay rates (yea some people expected that, thankfully they have no power what so ever) but it would mean nothing at WestJet with our pay scheme in itself.

Someone else said this to me, this TA seems good from the outside, but great if you're at WJ.

Just make sure people who aren't happy and want to leave more senior than 9 years

[khedrei]

The argument was always that we have good T4 income, but our take home pay sucks.

You think 60k is good T4 income?

[kiaszceski]

The argument was always that we have good T4 income, but our take home pay sucks.

You think 60k is good T4 income?

I guess it depends. If the company pays everything and you only have the provincial and federal taxes to pay, that's not that bad.

[khedrei]

The argument was always that we have good T4 income, but our take home pay sucks.

You think 60k is good T4 income?

I guess it depends. If the company pays everything and you only have the provincial and federal taxes to pay, that's not that bad.

I guess you don't live in canada or have kids.

Even without other deductions, 60k leaves you with 45k after taxes. I dont know many people who can live on that solo nevermind with a family.

[RippleRock]

The argument was always that we have good T4 income, but our take home pay sucks.

You think 60k is good T4 income?

I guess it depends. If the company pays everything and you only have the provincial and federal taxes to pay, that's not that bad.

Interesting thinking. Maybe we are "just Canadian pilots". Gotta chew that one over as its a bit tough to swallow. Is what it is I guess.

[Fidget]

You need to look at this CA in it's entirety and you're only looking at pay rates.

This is how our TAs were sold to us by ACPA. Sitting from the cheap seats it looks like the same game plan is in play here, that is, get some stuff to pass this 50%+1.

I now know what a North American contract looks like. Not even close to the hoopla during the ALPA sell job.

[DanWEC]

I posted this in the other thread but it got lost in the middle of the Swoop/rebid discussion....

I'm very curious, I'm not familiar with WJ's year-to-year contract changes, but just how much of this new contract can be considered actual improvements, and not just reversing years of previous backsliding, a la AC?
Scope and eliminating Swoop? That's just coming back up to sea level. What else is in here like that? Once you discount those items is this a gain or just getting lost territory back?

Regardless, congrats on the improvements so far!

[rudder]

I presume that the AIP adds one half of the prior company ESOP 20% match to hourly rates. That will then help to enhance entitlements that are directly wage based (overtime/disability/pension/etc).

I further presume the WJ pilot can then allocate the remaining 10% to some type of registered retirement vehicle (including a multi employer retirement plan if matched by the pilot employee).

I guess forthcoming details will clarify.

Does that not imply up to a 25% immediate increase in current hourly rates?