Agreement in Principle reached

[ant_321]

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

“No bump, no flush” is a common provision of any seniority integration. So common, it may well be in the labour code now. In all the seniority integrations of which I’ve been a part, (too many to mention) I’ve never seen an example where one can be bumped from an existing position.

The only way I can see it happening, is if the “Swoop Captain” and “Sunwing Captain” positions are deemed to no longer exist, even though the flying does. Tough sell and I can see long expensive court battles resulting.

It’s actually quite simple. If Swoop doesn’t exist anymore, their position doesn’t exist anymore. And there’s a process for dealing with positions that don’t exist anymore. A displacement bid. Which is a system wide re-bid.

Plus they are pay protected. What a win! Less responsibility and you aren’t going to make any less. Someone must really have 5 bar syndrome if this bothers them.

Are they pay protected? And to what level, their current income or the income they would have on this new agreement if they were to keep their captain position?

Honestly I'm not sure what the better solution is, senior FOs who have been waiting a decade for upgrade do deserve to be captains, but a demotion for swoop captains doesn't seem particularly fair either, even with pay protection. It's not about 5 bad syndrome, people work decades to become captains of a jet that size, it's about more than just pay.

lol. You’re literally describing 5 bar syndrome. Keep your pay with less responsibility and have better seniority in your position. The only ones who have a problem with that are guys with 5 bar syndrome.

[canadian_aviator_4]

For those keeping score….. the AA pilot TA has a top NB CA rate of US$392 in 2026. Add another 18% company contribution to the 401k and it will be US$463 ‘all-in’.

Don’t want to post the WB CA rates. It will be too distressing for everybody north of the 49th parallel.

We aren’t the pirates of the North Atlantic. We are the pirates of North America.

American Airlines pilots also rejected the first offer they got last year and it worked pretty well for them. I hope westjet pilots consider doing the same both for themselves and for all Canadian pilots. Seems pretty underwhelming.

[RippleRock]

For those keeping score….. the AA pilot TA has a top NB CA rate of US$392 in 2026. Add another 18% company contribution to the 401k and it will be US$463 ‘all-in’.

Don’t want to post the WB CA rates. It will be too distressing for everybody north of the 49th parallel.

We aren’t the pirates of the North Atlantic. We are the pirates of North America.

Agree 100%. There was a huge disservice done by the MEC accepting such a paltry wage uplift. Like what do you do now??? After inflation is factored it's almost nothing. Big win for Onex for sure as I'm certain they were smart enough to factor at minimum, inflation for all aspects of the operation into their ongoing business model.

I booked the entire long weekend off to walk the line with these guys, shoes all polished and everything. Oh well, getting a lot done around the house instead.

[5degrees]

Let's not forget that WestJet pilots wanted a full system wide rebid. They're getting it with this deal.

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

That's exactly what would happen. I'm not someone who is affected by this move one way or another. But if I put myself in their shoes, they filled positions that everyone else refused to fill. Why should they be punished for doing work all the other captain elegible FO's refused to do? If they had filled them themselves, a rebid wouldn't be necessary, and everyone would be making the same with this contract. Instead the rest of the pilot group is paying for this rebid by being paid less for the next 4 years. Some will disagree with this reasoning, and that's fine. Just one opinion

They should be punished for undermining every FOs position at WJ. There's a damn good reason why those spots didn't get filled.
Overall the AIP is underwhelming, was definitely hoping for at least 20% increase in pay.

[Blackdog0301]

What does this entail? Are they saying a system wide rebid including “bump” and “flush”. Where someone currently holding 737 Captain at Swoop (for example) can be bumped by a senior pilot, but not currently holding that position?

That's exactly what would happen. I'm not someone who is affected by this move one way or another. But if I put myself in their shoes, they filled positions that everyone else refused to fill. Why should they be punished for doing work all the other captain elegible FO's refused to do? If they had filled them themselves, a rebid wouldn't be necessary, and everyone would be making the same with this contract. Instead the rest of the pilot group is paying for this rebid by being paid less for the next 4 years. Some will disagree with this reasoning, and that's fine. Just one opinion

They should be punished for undermining every FOs position at WJ. There's a damn good reason why those spots didn't get filled.

Alright sport. Put yourself in their shoes and you'd have a completely different opinion.

[5degrees]

That's exactly what would happen. I'm not someone who is affected by this move one way or another. But if I put myself in their shoes, they filled positions that everyone else refused to fill. Why should they be punished for doing work all the other captain elegible FO's refused to do? If they had filled them themselves, a rebid wouldn't be necessary, and everyone would be making the same with this contract. Instead the rest of the pilot group is paying for this rebid by being paid less for the next 4 years. Some will disagree with this reasoning, and that's fine. Just one opinion

They should be punished for undermining every FOs position at WJ. There's a damn good reason why those spots didn't get filled.

Alright sport. Put yourself in their shoes and you'd have a completely different opinion.

Oh the classic "they have bills and a family argument". Fair enough but they knew from the start what they were getting themselves into. The job market was also on the cusp of becoming the best its ever been so it's not like it was 2002 with 0 work avail.

[Blackdog0301]

They should be punished for undermining every FOs position at WJ. There's a damn good reason why those spots didn't get filled.

Alright sport. Put yourself in their shoes and you'd have a completely different opinion.

Oh the classic "they have bills and a family argument". Fair enough but they knew from the start what they were getting themselves into.

Sure, but to say "they should be punished" is harsh. It's one thing to take a position you're entitled to through the appropriate channels... it's quite another and completely unacceptable to kick them out of their seat, and throw dirt in their face saying it's their fault this happened. Grow up.

[flyinhigh]

Alright sport. Put yourself in their shoes and you'd have a completely different opinion.

Oh the classic "they have bills and a family argument". Fair enough but they knew from the start what they were getting themselves into.

Sure, but to say "they should be punished" is harsh. It's one thing to take a position you're entitled to through the appropriate channels... it's quite another and completely unacceptable to kick them out of their seat, and throw dirt in their face saying it's their fault this happened. Grow up.

Yeah, even the arbitrator on CBA1 punted these types of pilots from the left seat when it became common employer. History is there, and has been done already. Just ask Tbaylax about that, the four bar syndrome say him jump ship to Flair.

Plus, Swoop pay is so bad, they will likely get a pay raise to go the right seat now, just not that cushy 150k extra.

[Blackdog0301]

Oh the classic "they have bills and a family argument". Fair enough but they knew from the start what they were getting themselves into.

Sure, but to say "they should be punished" is harsh. It's one thing to take a position you're entitled to through the appropriate channels... it's quite another and completely unacceptable to kick them out of their seat, and throw dirt in their face saying it's their fault this happened. Grow up.

Yeah, even the arbitrator on CBA1 punted these types of pilots from the left seat when it became common employer. History is there, and has been done already. Just ask Tbaylax about that, the four bar syndrome say him jump ship to Flair.

Plus, Swoop pay is so bad, they will likely get a pay raise to go the right seat now, just not that cushy 150k extra.

I completely agree. It sucks, but seniority is always king. If you're out of seniority, you have to keep an open mind. I feel bad for anyone kicked out of their seat, but if you get to keep your pay, (or like you say, potentially make more) in the right seat, it's tough to say it isn't fair.

[RippleRock]

Sooo....south of the border.

American Airlines is "offering" their 737 Captains $475/hour in Canadian dollars. Are Canadians worth TWO HUNDRERED DOLLARS and hour less? Your MEC seems to think so. Year TWO FO 737 $205 Canadian an hour. Sounds like 100% more than their Canadian counterparts if the $105/hour rumour is true. How can this possibly be???


How on God's green earth are we going to stand in a Customs line with these guys and look them in the eye. There will be ZERO respect for us.

[Tolip]

Does anyone know what year one FO at WJ will earn as a yearly salary with this deal? Aswell as year one captain?

[dontcallmeshirley]

Does anyone know what year one FO at WJ will earn as a yearly salary with this deal? Aswell as year one captain?

The language has not been released. The closest information is that there is an average of 15.5% increase in pay across the board.

[FOD_Vacuum]

First of all, WJ MEC, thank you for trying to work as best as you could. I’m sure it’s not easy to bargain against such an out-of-touch management. I’m sorry to say but this AIP is absolutely disappointing. We’re talking about inflationary raises!?

In terms of attraction and retention, I had a way better expectation that this new contract would actually attract and retain pilots with a North American wage standard, at least a nice bump upwards. This AIP is not that. I will continue down the EB-2 NIW route and try for the states.

I really hope the vast majority of WJ pilots vote a hard no when it gets presented to them. American Airlines went back to the table and got something much better. Good luck everyone.

[canadian_aviator_4]

As Canadians we are nice but often pushovers in negotiations. We need to toughen up and say no. Don’t back down, and negotiate what we deserve not what management thinks what we deserve. Less Canadian and more American negotiating.

[brokeflapoperator]

Can anyone confirm this?

IMG_2785.jpg (366.64 KiB) Viewed 2239 times

[khedrei]

Looks more like a joke than a rumor.

25% increase for first year FO and 66% for first year captain.

Even JT's math doesn't come up with an average of 15% on that

[RockSalty]

Can anyone confirm this? IMG_2785.jpg

Until we get the actual contract language we don't know. These rumors are worth what you've paid for them... jack shit

[Greasy Greaser]

Looks more like a joke than a rumor.

25% increase for first year FO and 66% for first year captain.

Even JT's math doesn't come up with an average of 15% on that

Where are you getting that information???

First I heard of this, are you Bernie, Chris or Negots team?

edit: Also there is no first year captain pay at WestJet anymore so genuine question, do you work here or no?

[khedrei]

Looks more like a joke than a rumor.

25% increase for first year FO and 66% for first year captain.

Even JT's math doesn't come up with an average of 15% on that

Where are you getting that information???

First I heard of this, are you Bernie, Chris or Negots team?

edit: Also there is no first year captain pay at WestJet anymore so genuine question, do you work here or no?

I dont have any information. It was my opinion that the rumor picture of payscales showing 25% and 66% pay increases above was a joke.

I never claimed to work there. In fact I stated in another post that I dont when I commented about how bad this agreement looks.

Not sure what you are talking about though.

[MorePower!]

To those who don't think 23.5% raise over 4 years is enough, that scope protection and dismantling of swoop is not enough, integrating sunwing under one employer. Countless life style improvements.

I suggest you do your self and the rest of us a favor and leave Westjet and Canadian Aviation, you are extremely out of touch with life and will never be happy.

There is nothing wrong in wanting more but you have to be realistic and reasonable. This is the first negotiated contract and the MEC did a great job. Nothing in Canada will ever make you happy, move on.

[Chelsea Handler]

To those who don't think 23.5% raise over 4 years is enough, that scope protection and dismantling of swoop is not enough, integrating sunwing under one employer. Countless life style improvements.

I suggest you do your self and the rest of us a favor and leave Westjet and Canadian Aviation, you are extremely out of touch with life and will never be happy.

There is nothing wrong in wanting more but you have to be realistic and reasonable. This is the first negotiated contract and the MEC did a great job. Nothing in Canada will ever make you happy, move on.

I guess time will tell. If AC pilots get better than 100 percent less than American pilots, and a raise that only matches inflation, we will be kicking ourselves.

Maybe the union shouldn't have talked the talk about north American standard contract, when clearly this contract screams "I'm just a Canadian pilot". I hope to see AC pilots making 50 percent more than us flying the same planes, then we can look back at this oh so Canadian post you made.

[Ash Ketchum]

I don't see AC making historic wage gains as it's all supply and demand and currently there is no issue on the supply side for AC pilot recruiting. Maybe if all WJ/Encore pilots stop filling AC PIT classes that would change it, but based on this AIP I'm not sure if that will be the case.

[airway]

First of all, WJ MEC, thank you for trying to work as best as you could. I’m sure it’s not easy to bargain against such an out-of-touch management. I’m sorry to say but this AIP is absolutely disappointing. We’re talking about inflationary raises!?

There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%

2023-05-21.png (95.98 KiB) Viewed 4460 times

[khedrei]

First of all, WJ MEC, thank you for trying to work as best as you could. I’m sure it’s not easy to bargain against such an out-of-touch management. I’m sorry to say but this AIP is absolutely disappointing. We’re talking about inflationary raises!?

There are other gains of course, but the 15.5% number is actually below inflation since 2018 (start of last contract). Total Inflation since 2018 is 17.3%




2023-05-21.png

I don't buy government inflation numbers.

I dont know about you guys, but food, rent, and other materials are up 30-50% just in the last 2 years where I live. 17% is bullshit.

[khedrei]

To those who don't think 23.5% raise over 4 years is enough, that scope protection and dismantling of swoop is not enough, integrating sunwing under one employer. Countless life style improvements.

I suggest you do your self and the rest of us a favor and leave Westjet and Canadian Aviation, you are extremely out of touch with life and will never be happy.

There is nothing wrong in wanting more but you have to be realistic and reasonable. This is the first negotiated contract and the MEC did a great job. Nothing in Canada will ever make you happy, move on.

We have to wait and see how the 15% is weighted, but if it has yr1 FO making anything less than 90k, it isn't enough. And I dont know why you would think it is.