Crewbunk wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 8:21 am
I’m in the minority, but I’ve always thought pre-reserved seniority places on the AC list is an elegant solution. Used in the past by both AC/Jazz and Canadian Airlines/CRA, it solved the “urgency” some felt. But … as I said, knowing that this method has caused huge issues, I well understand why I’m in the minority thinking it a viable solution.
Since it doesn't affect anyone already on the AC list and would only better someone on the Jazz list, it would stand to reason that the only "strong" opposition to such an agreement would come from folks on the sideline, hoping for an OTS spot at AC.
I can understand the AC folks seeing this as a "let" that should be compensated for and I think that's fair. Get that compensation and move on... Shouldn't be harder than it needs to be.
58
It wasn’t that challenging to do in 2015 and that was also record hiring levels at AC.
This time around ACPA can ask for much more in return. The Express system is faltering almost entirely due to pilot retention. It is not going to get better until there is attractive WAWCON and a fair and predictable path to AC for those who have that as their ultimate goal.
rudder wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 9:01 am
... path to AC for those who have that as their ultimate goal.
This circles back to my other point. The problem is that if AC is your ultimate goal, the system is such that you need to get there ASA freaking P in order to secure that seniority spot.
It means that young pilots, not knowing any better, will screw themselves out of a well-rounded and diversified career/experience to race to the job they will do for the next 40 years of their career. That is a sure recipe to "loath" flying at some point, which is a travesty considering how fortunate we are do this job for a living.
Pilot's should be compensated and enjoy good working conditions as a result of their time in the industry, not as a result of luckily screwing the right employer at the right time. If we are to see true pilot unity at any time, this needs to be fixed.
altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:50 am
Flow, reserved seniority, guaranteed numbers, whatever... they are there to increase supply and reduce costs, that's it. That's why they exist.
That goes for both Mainline and Jazz.
It negatively affects us all and the whole industry.
A more natural development and career would benefit the individual and the profession and the bottom line on all of our T4s.
Flow has not produced that result in the US.
There is no reason it won’t work here so long as the JAZ MEC does not bring back another discount agreement in exchange for flow.
altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:50 am
Flow, reserved seniority, guaranteed numbers, whatever... they are there to increase supply and reduce costs, that's it. That's why they exist.
That goes for both Mainline and Jazz.
It negatively affects us all and the whole industry.
A more natural development and career would benefit the individual and the profession and the bottom line on all of our T4s.
Flow has not produced that result in the US.
There is no reason it won’t work here so long as the JAZ MEC does not bring back another discount agreement in exchange for flow.
It absolutely created lower wages in the US for decades. It was only the mass pilot shortage combined with the 1500 hour ATP rule for right seat 705 that finally allowed wages to increase in the US. There is zero evidence that seniority and or flow has increased regional pilot salaries in the US. The main driving factor is the ATP requirement.
ACPA has no business in even answering a phone call related to Jazz flow through. This is entirely AC and Chorus’ doing, they can solve it.
Jazz pilots who were suppose to flow should be looking for a six figure settlement per pilot. You’ve lost 1 YOS at AC, what is that worth combined throughout the 12 year pay scale? Napkin math suggests $200k-$300k in total earnings being lost by the pilots who didn’t flow. This lost income should be entirely compensated to the affected Jazz pilots and ACPA shouldn’t be involved.
altiplano wrote: ↑Sat Apr 15, 2023 10:50 am
Flow, reserved seniority, guaranteed numbers, whatever... they are there to increase supply and reduce costs, that's it. That's why they exist.
That goes for both Mainline and Jazz.
It negatively affects us all and the whole industry.
A more natural development and career would benefit the individual and the profession and the bottom line on all of our T4s.
Flow has not produced that result in the US.
There is no reason it won’t work here so long as the JAZ MEC does not bring back another discount agreement in exchange for flow.
It absolutely created lower wages in the US for decades. It was only the mass pilot shortage combined with the 1500 hour ATP rule for right seat 705 that finally allowed wages to increase in the US. There is zero evidence that seniority and or flow has increased regional pilot salaries in the US. The main driving factor is the ATP requirement.
ACPA has no business in even answering a phone call related to Jazz flow through. This is entirely AC and Chorus’ doing, they can solve it.
Well all four parties met twice so they have answered the phone before and apparently have an interest.
Jazz pilots who were suppose to flow should be looking for a six figure settlement per pilot. You’ve lost 1 YOS at AC, what is that worth combined throughout the 12 year pay scale? Napkin math suggests $200k-$300k in total earnings being lost by the pilots who didn’t flow. This lost income should be entirely compensated to the affected Jazz pilots and ACPA shouldn’t be involved.
YOS is a big piece but there’s others, how many pilots ahead, lost progression at Jazz to name a few. I doubt the payout will be even close to that much though.
What if AC pilots got that money instead and Jazz pilots slotted in where they were supposed to? Just a thought.
There is no reason it won’t work here so long as the JAZ MEC does not bring back another discount agreement in exchange for flow.
It absolutely created lower wages in the US for decades. It was only the mass pilot shortage combined with the 1500 hour ATP rule for right seat 705 that finally allowed wages to increase in the US. There is zero evidence that seniority and or flow has increased regional pilot salaries in the US. The main driving factor is the ATP requirement.
ACPA has no business in even answering a phone call related to Jazz flow through. This is entirely AC and Chorus’ doing, they can solve it.
Well all four parties met twice so they have answered the phone before and apparently have an interest.
Jazz pilots who were suppose to flow should be looking for a six figure settlement per pilot. You’ve lost 1 YOS at AC, what is that worth combined throughout the 12 year pay scale? Napkin math suggests $200k-$300k in total earnings being lost by the pilots who didn’t flow. This lost income should be entirely compensated to the affected Jazz pilots and ACPA shouldn’t be involved.
YOS is a big piece but there’s others, how many pilots ahead, lost progression at Jazz to name a few. I doubt the payout will be even close to that much though.
What if AC pilots got that money instead and Jazz pilots slotted in where they were supposed to? Just a thought.
You keep saying things like “deserve” and “supposed to”. You are not an employee of AC, your date of hire is the date assigned to you by the company once you’ve completed the interview, medical, and hiring process. You don’t just arbitrarily get to decide that you’d like to fit into the company somewhere. If you want to work at AC, apply, and go through the process.
It absolutely created lower wages in the US for decades. It was only the mass pilot shortage combined with the 1500 hour ATP rule for right seat 705 that finally allowed wages to increase in the US. There is zero evidence that seniority and or flow has increased regional pilot salaries in the US. The main driving factor is the ATP requirement.
ACPA has no business in even answering a phone call related to Jazz flow through. This is entirely AC and Chorus’ doing, they can solve it.
Well all four parties met twice so they have answered the phone before and apparently have an interest.
Jazz pilots who were suppose to flow should be looking for a six figure settlement per pilot. You’ve lost 1 YOS at AC, what is that worth combined throughout the 12 year pay scale? Napkin math suggests $200k-$300k in total earnings being lost by the pilots who didn’t flow. This lost income should be entirely compensated to the affected Jazz pilots and ACPA shouldn’t be involved.
YOS is a big piece but there’s others, how many pilots ahead, lost progression at Jazz to name a few. I doubt the payout will be even close to that much though.
What if AC pilots got that money instead and Jazz pilots slotted in where they were supposed to? Just a thought.
You keep saying things like “deserve” and “supposed to”. You are not an employee of AC, your date of hire is the date assigned to you by the company once you’ve completed the interview, medical, and hiring process. You don’t just arbitrarily get to decide that you’d like to fit into the company somewhere. If you want to work at AC, apply, and go through the process.
I can think of few pilots that are on AC’s seniority list that never went through the hiring process….
I can replace those words with “contractually obligated” if that’s less triggering for you?
YOS is a big piece but there’s others, how many pilots ahead, lost progression at Jazz to name a few. I doubt the payout will be even close to that much though.
What if AC pilots got that money instead and Jazz pilots slotted in where they were supposed to? Just a thought.
You keep saying things like “deserve” and “supposed to”. You are not an employee of AC, your date of hire is the date assigned to you by the company once you’ve completed the interview, medical, and hiring process. You don’t just arbitrarily get to decide that you’d like to fit into the company somewhere. If you want to work at AC, apply, and go through the process.
I can think of few pilots that are on AC’s seniority list that never went through the hiring process….
I can replace those words with “contractually obligated” if that’s less triggering for you?
This is correct. Pilots came to jazz because of the contractually obligated %60 hiring of jazz pilots at AC. Jazz chose to break this agreement, and now OTS candidates are taking spots that should have been occupied by jazz pilots. This is not entitlement, this is following a legal contract. Jazz not following the contract is a tense issue because it negatively affects many pilots for the rest of their careers, due to lost seniority.
I feel we’ve been down this road before with the Kaplan award between Air Ontario and AC which was just squashed what 5 years ago.
While you may deserve, earned, contractually get it, all you can do is file a grievance and hope for the right outcome. If we’ve learned anything from Kaplin is that lawyers loooove money.
Nick678 wrote: ↑Wed May 17, 2023 8:19 pm
They have maybe taken 60-80 this year from jazz and none in the last few months.
I’m wonder if anyone on here has quit Jazz in the last few months and hired OTS at AC? if so please DM me
Any idea how long you have to stay with Jazz before they hire you to AC? Would it be a plus if I'm fluent in French?
I think qualified guys who are flowing to AC currently have 4.5-5 years at Jazz including the time over covid. So realistically you're gonna spend 3-4 years working at Jazz before moving to AC which is a long time, especially in this hiring climate. 3-4 years from now AC will probably be done their massive hiring spree and it will trickle down to a couple hundred a year. If you're qualified or close to being qualified to go to AC, it's a far better career move to go to Flair, Encore, Sunwing, Transat or Porter then try to get in OTS. Lots of Jazz pilots have left as well and gone the OTS route after only spending 6 months at another carrier so AC isn't really concerned if you leave Jazz. French will not make a significant decision in hiring right now, AC only hires by seniority from Jazz, so you will have to put your time in.
Has anyone ever left Jazz (to anywhere other than AC) AFTER completing the entire hiring process as a Jazz pilot, but BEFORE receiving the final offer of employment from AC? In this case do you get to keep your application to AC as is and continue waiting as you would otherwise, or do you forfeit and have to start from scratch OTS?
crystalpizza wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 9:47 pm
Has anyone ever left Jazz (to anywhere other than AC) AFTER completing the entire hiring process as a Jazz pilot, but BEFORE receiving the final offer of employment from AC? In this case do you get to keep your application to AC as is and continue waiting as you would otherwise, or do you forfeit and have to start from scratch OTS?
You mean you’ve interviewed already at AC (and you currently work at Jazz) and you’re waiting on your application and you want to leave Jazz to go to another airline all the while waiting for your AC call?
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crystalpizza wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 9:47 pm
Has anyone ever left Jazz (to anywhere other than AC) AFTER completing the entire hiring process as a Jazz pilot, but BEFORE receiving the final offer of employment from AC? In this case do you get to keep your application to AC as is and continue waiting as you would otherwise, or do you forfeit and have to start from scratch OTS?
You mean you’ve interviewed already at AC (and you currently work at Jazz) and you’re waiting on your application and you want to leave Jazz to go to another airline all the while waiting for your AC call?
crystalpizza wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 9:47 pm
Has anyone ever left Jazz (to anywhere other than AC) AFTER completing the entire hiring process as a Jazz pilot, but BEFORE receiving the final offer of employment from AC? In this case do you get to keep your application to AC as is and continue waiting as you would otherwise, or do you forfeit and have to start from scratch OTS?
You mean you’ve interviewed already at AC (and you currently work at Jazz) and you’re waiting on your application and you want to leave Jazz to go to another airline all the while waiting for your AC call?
Correct
You would think it would set a bad precedent; If you quit Jazz and became an OTS hire and put in the next GS at AC. Hopefully someone is willing to try… risky but fortune favours the bold.
You mean you’ve interviewed already at AC (and you currently work at Jazz) and you’re waiting on your application and you want to leave Jazz to go to another airline all the while waiting for your AC call?
Correct
You would think it would set a bad precedent; If you quit Jazz and became an OTS hire and put in the next GS at AC. Hopefully someone is willing to try… risky but fortune favours the bold.
Million dollar question. If it’s true, everyone who is in the hiring process would leave jazz. So I’m guessing not. It’s the only way jazz stayed hired with mid range seniority pilots: Providing just enough information to give hope that they will be hired soon, so they stay. It’s the
crystalpizza wrote: ↑Thu May 25, 2023 9:47 pm
Has anyone ever left Jazz (to anywhere other than AC) AFTER completing the entire hiring process as a Jazz pilot, but BEFORE receiving the final offer of employment from AC? In this case do you get to keep your application to AC as is and continue waiting as you would otherwise, or do you forfeit and have to start from scratch OTS?
Ah, the old I want my cake and eat it too!
I 100% guarantee you will lose your spot, the flow is based on Jazz seniority, without that you are OTS.
Now, would they count your successful interview and put you in as OTS, maybe even ahead of where you would fit in the Jazz seniority, who knows. I’m not sure I would risk it but you need to do what works for you.
Can I ask how long you’ve been at Jazz?
